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Thread: 2 questions

  1. #1

    2 questions

    In an arrangement, I see this sort of thing:

    A+7

    what exactly does this mean?



    Secondly, what are a couple of good grips for an altered chord?

  2. #2
    A+7 would be A dominant 7 with a sharp 5th. (augmented).

    A good source for chords is "Joe Pass Guitar Chords". It is a bit challenging, because he doesn't spell out what each chord is. You have to figure out what the notes are and what that means (oh, this is the 9th -- so this is a Dom 9th chord). He does give you the note names and the exact grips.

    Many of the chords are rootless, too.

    But, overall, an interesting collection of colorful chords.

  3. #3
    starter collection:

    5 X 5 6 6 X or X 0 X 0 2 1

    move root above X X 5 6 6 5 or X 10 11 10 10 X

    5 8 5 6 X X or X 0 3 0 2 X or X X 7 10 8 9

    5 8 X 6 8 X or X 0 3 X 2 3

    5 4 5 X 6 X or X 12 11 12 X 13

    X 12 11 10 8 X or X X 7 6 6 3 or 5 4 3 0 X X (a bit muddy)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bach5G View Post
    In an arrangement, I see this sort of thing:

    A+7

    what exactly does this mean?



    Secondly, what are a couple of good grips for an altered chord?
    I'll add that think A+7 is a dumb way to write down A7#5. When writing notation a big part of the job is to make the music as easy to read as possible. A+7 is not common usage and accordingly can take an extra split second for the performing to register... maybe a split second that throws him/her a bit off.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  5. #5
    You need to be familiar with all these different symbols, because they’re all out there and in use somewhere, no matter how illogical etc. they may be.

  6. #6
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    Lots of engravers use A+7 because A+ is one of the most used symbols for augmented triad, so just throw that 7 in there for the ease of doing it, plus thinking they're sticking to a format. Read enough charts and it does get used often.

  7. #7
    An alt chord has more notes than the guitar has strings. For example, Calt is C E F# G# Bb Db and Eb. That's Root, 3 #11 #5 b7 b9 #9. The notes make Db mel minor.

    So, for guitar you have to pick from that group and try to make the sound you're after.

    It seems to me that, most often, playing the #5 and #9 works. So, for example, if the chord is Calt, you might use C E G# Bb and Eb. Since the bassist plays C (hopefully) you need E G# Bb and Eb. A grip for that will work and usually sounds good is x x 8 9 9 11. That's Bb E G# Eb. And, it's a voicing that you might know as Gb13. Any Gb13 voicing is a candidate for "recycling" as Calt.

    Forgive the enharmonic spellings. There may be a way to spell them that is more correct.

    Also, there are other ways to voice it and other ways to think about it.
    .

  8. #8
    Personal preference is A7+, more streamlined than A7#5. For major 7 it would be Ama7+.
    Reality is that there is a wide swath of symbols representing the same thing.
    Having preferences, sure. Discussing preferences with engraver or arranger at an appropriate moment, ok.
    Whatever the engraver comes up with, it's our job to make sense of it or someone else will.

  9. #9
    Notation always needs to have context... some type of reference which should organize how and why the notation, or the spelling of the chord is used.

    The typical standard that has been used from the early 70's is "Standard Chord Symbol Notation" by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer.
    used by most fake books and notation programs etc..

    Part of the problem.... it's not based on jazz harmony, at least with altered chords, biggest problems is dealing with 4ths, 5ths and 6ths.

    Anyway... generally the chord is either from Harmonic minor or Melodic minor.

    Harmonic minor is the standard source for creating Dominant function, (V7 chords that create chord movement from Dominant to Tonic),
    with Relative Minor.
    Say that A+7 chord resolving to Dminor. Using Maj/min functional Harmony Guidelines.
    The maj. part is Key of F maj. and the Min. part is D min. which is the relative Minor and the source of that A+7 chord.

    Dmin. becomes D harmonic Minor, which create the V7 chord.... the big problem.... that +5 is really a b13 when you start to get past triads and 7th chords.

    The other source is Melodic minor, which has been more of the modern standard source for functional harmony in jazz.

    So same relative application, the A+7 would be the V7 chord.... but now the chord becomes A7b13 with natural 5th.

    Which leads to... short story, that A+7 becoming A7alt. from the Bb mel. Min. (A Bb C Db Eb F G)
    and is spelled, Rt b9 b3 b11 b5 b13 b7... which becomes....Rt, b9 #9 3 (#11 or b5) b13 b7 ...A7alt.

    And to make it even more complicated.... 99% of the time, That A7alt and it's tritone sub of Eb7#11... are interchangeable.

    And when one becomes skilled with harmonic usage, both comping and soloing.... all chords from that Bb mel. min., (Chords constructed on each scale degree from Bb mel. min.), can be used as subs for that A7alt. (A+7).

    Lots of useless info. and there are other understanding of harmony etc...

    Some of my most used voicings of A7alt.

    X X 3 2 2 1
    ..............3

    X X 5 6 6 5
    ..............6
    ..............8

    X X 11 10 10 8
    ...................9
    ...................11

    X X 11 12 13 13

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    And when one becomes skilled with harmonic usage, both comping and soloing.... all chords from that Bb mel. min., (Chords constructed on each scale degree from Bb mel. min.), can be used as subs for that A7alt. (A+7).
    Hey Reg,

    This leads into something I've been meaning to ask you. A while back I asked what you meant by "reference" and you gave me an explanation that cleared things up pretty well. Now I'm curious what you mean by "building relationships" once you've decided on the reference. I *think* it means more or less what you said in the quote above. Am I right about that?
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    Hey Reg,

    This leads into something I've been meaning to ask you. A while back I asked what you meant by "reference" and you gave me an explanation that cleared things up pretty well. Now I'm curious what you mean by "building relationships" once you've decided on the reference. I *think* it means more or less what you said in the quote above. Am I right about that?
    Yes... but wait, there's more.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yes... but wait, there's more.
    Standing by...
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  13. #13
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    but wait, there's more.
    Where have I heard that before? Oh, right...

  14. #14
    I'm laughing... Joe so a relationship in the music theory area. is just adding something to an existing reference. There are macro and micro approaches .... take that A7altered, if that is the Reference.... a Relationship can be adding melodic minor to the Reference... I'm adding a scale to a chord.... resulting in more results. Adding Harmonic Minor scale would be different relationship with different results.

    Adding pentatonic scales or Blue Notes etc... all different Relationships, they are all taking a Reference and creating a Relationship using something different. And that all can have different results.... I'm pretty simple..... I almost always use, Reference... Relationships.... Development

    Take the A7alt as "Reference", add the "Relationship" of Melodic Minor, and through "Development", end up using different chords constructed from scale degrees of BbMM.

    Different relationships have different results... or at least have the possibility.

  15. #15
    OK, that's pretty much what I thought you meant. I guess if I were going to describe that, I'd say you're making a choice about what context you want to put the chord in.

    Does the reference/relationship change with every chord, or are you looking for ways to sub in groups of chords? For example, a II-V-I is all in one key. The V is altered, (lets say we're in C, so the G7 is altered). If your reference is AbMM, are you subbing in chords from that scale for the II and the I as well, or are you using different references for those?

    And, I guess, in a broader sense, are you looking to carry a particular harmonic perspective through an entire tune, just a section, or what? And if yes, then how? (I'm thinking in terms of standards where you've got at least a chord per bar, and you're visiting several different keys along the way.

    Would you be up for disassembling a standard and showing us how you'd attack it?
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  16. #16
    Yea... the context could be a relationship, but generally the context is more constant, maybe more of a reference... when you change the context... you would be changing the reference. The result of adding or creating a relationship... can change the context.

    The relationship to a reference.... can be micro... one chord. That one chord, say Cmaj7 can be a Tonal Target, a tonal center in it's self with somewhat tonal world revolving around it... Cmaj7... and ten create relationships with that Cmaj7. Example, I modal interchange that Cmaj7 from Ionian to Lydian. And then use Amin pentatonic relationship... which would change from Aeolian when the Cmaj7 reference chord is organized around Ionian to Dorian when the Cmaj7 chord becomes Lydian.

    So basically... the Amin pentatonic 5 note pattern is the same with both... A C D E G... but the added noted change, the 6th or 13th goes from b6 to nat. 6th F to F#... simple right. Now when you extend or expand the new relationship the small differences continue... if your comping and play chord patterns.... the chord patterns change etc... Many of the extended or next level new relationships open new doors. And close others.

    And yes this process or method of organizing different applications... works with creating subs. I usually hear and think of harmonic rhythm... both melodically and harmonically... the rhythmic attacks that have the largest value within a repeating pattern.... or at least have the perception of being most important, the most weight... in patterns or cycles that are in motions.

    In the "A" section of a tune... say 8 bars... I decide, (or have already decided etc..)... what are the defining or most important harmonic and rhythmic attacks of that section..A. What make the music feel and groove...(or melody etc...)

    Then when I create new relationships with that Reference, the "A" section that I have mapped out. I also have organization of how I'm creating those new relationships.... where and why I choose to change etc... In a 8 bar phrase, can be as simple Basic Strong Weak motion,
    bar 1 strong, bar 2 weak, bar 3 strong, bar 4 weak etc...That is more of a standard organization of motion based on Form... Different Forms have different perceptions of natural forward motion...

    In your example of II V I... or any chord pattern... Again I try and have organization... It would get pretty muddy if I dropped Abmm on each chord... right... MM tends to almost all sound the same... If Abmm was relationship... The II chord would need something, right... to relate to Abmm. , you could use MM as relationship... and change D- to D-7b5 from Fmm G7alt from Abmm and C-ma7.
    So the relationship would be just MM modal interchange with the II V I being the reference... and the Development could be how you work with those three different MM note collection within the same space.

    Usually you mix other relationships to end up with not such a vanilla result... and then have a rhythmic organization within the section, pattern or cycle.

    Yes and no to last question... and sure, how about last months Practical standards tune Take the A train. I could also sneak in some comping concept etc...

  17. #17
    Thanks Reg! That's a lot to take in, but I'm sure once I read it a few more times I'll find plenty of insight.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    In your example of II V I... or any chord pattern... Again I try and have organization... It would get pretty muddy if I dropped Abmm on each chord... right... MM tends to almost all sound the same... If Abmm was relationship... The II chord would need something, right... to relate to Abmm. , you could use MM as relationship... and change D- to D-7b5 from Fmm G7alt from Abmm and C-ma7.
    So the relationship would be just MM modal interchange with the II V I being the reference... and the Development could be how you work with those three different MM note collection within the same space.
    Awesome! So you're looking at developing relationships between three different MM scales. That's something I can work with!
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  19. #19
    Would sound better if you just use Fmm for D- and Abmm for G7alt and then on the Cmaj7 use Blue notes...with Cmaj.

    Just to keep things straight...How my head works...I think of the II- chord as D-7b5, (and just use the 6th degree of Fmm for source of note collection. I don't think "Fmm"... I think D-7b5 with a natural 9th and know that the relationship is pulling from MM through Modal Interchange.

    The same with the G7altered, the V7 chord... I don't think of Abmm... I think and hear G7altered... and know the source of that G7altered is Abmm. Because that is the relationship I'm using

    The talking about... all these harmonic applications... all the spelling and labeling of the details... can seem complicated, but once you have the basics down... it becomes simple. It's like once you know numbers... and you get adding, subtraction, multiplying and division.. you don't always need to go through the complete process.... you know 5 x 5 is 25. And don't need to add 5 to 5 and add another 5 etc... you already know the answer is 25.

    So once you begin to know different relationships with References... you already know the simple answer. ... in the II V I example... you already know the possibilities... And can also hear the different possibilities. When you use a G7altered going to Cmaj7.... you can hear the Blue Notes The #9 and b13 of the G7altered are the b7 and b3 of Cmaj7...which can be from Abmm.

    It is usually complicated at first... but it will make playing jazz much more interesting, and open many more possibilities of how to play standards.... It's a different approach as compared to embellishment... and its not like you need to quit using standard embellishment application.... It really is required to be able to comp in a jazz style... there are other approaches, Christian and many members on this forum like the BH approach... its very cool and has organization with applications.... I just think it sounds to much like mud on guitar. The voicings are better for solo guitar... I personally just don't like the Diminished... references. I don't like Diminished. It's more of an effect... not a function. And of course there is the old school approach of inversions... Vanilla...

  20. #20
    I had an experience some years back with a teacher who had a very characteristic sound to his playing, based, I assumed, on his particular take on harmony. I couldn't duplicate it. I knew he used #5 more than some people, and chromatics, and some other devices. And, his tunes were invariably harmonic complex with a lot of changes.

    So, there we are in a lesson, and he demonstrates a line over Dm9 G13 Cmaj7 -- and he gets that characteristic sound that I associate only with him.

    I was ready to confront him at gunpoint to make him explain it -- but it didn't come to that. Instead, he played the slowly enough that I could identify the notes.

    D dorian, Galt (Abmm) and Clydian.

    In other words, the exact same scales I was already using (along with most jazz players).

    The difference? He made better melodies from the same pool of notes.

    So, even after you internalize the theory and get all the pitch collections identified on the fretboard and can pick like a demon, etc etc., you still have to make melody. I don't know how to get better at that, although I think people who are good at it have usually transcribed a lot and have a reservoir of licks and tricks, which they draw on, but go beyond.

  21. #21
    OK... so your from the make melodies school... I could go through a series of questions and eventually you would have good idea of what makes great melodies or lines... but to save time...

    So first... the choices you said above are one of many... and what generally make the pitch collections work ... isn't the pitch collections... the pitch collections... chords, scales, arpeggios etc... anyway you choose to label sources for organizing notes... anyway... what make melodies work is how you combine applications of using those note collections. And what makes a notes sound perfect, magic etc... is how the note is set up. A note without a reference means very little... but any note with the right reference,(harmony), can become magic... I'm just using the term magic for effect. It's not magic... it comes from organized usage.

    Beautiful melodies... follow formulas... there are choices but once you understand Harmony... I'm talking really understand harmony... and you get basic Spatial organization... part of which is understanding perceptions of motion... movement and rest. And what types of organization creates what type of feel and style... within Form.

    Which leads to having organized tonal targets... and organized melodic material which connects and supports the Target notes you choose.

    You can do this... by chance, sing what feels right and add rhythmic patterns. The rhythm need to create that perception that the melody is in an ordered sense of motion... and the shape... the location of the most important notes need to be in the right places... what ever formula you choose ... or just feel and trial and error your way there.

    I composed and arranges music for film, large ensembles all kinds of garbage... you don't have the time to trial and error scores, although with today's new technologies, you can plug and play... sort of trial and error your way around etc... it's not quantum mechanics, it just take a little work... depending on where one is with their skills and musicianship.

    Getting back to using note collections.... there are usually more collections of notes, (I'm using this term, collections of notes, because it seems to work for some), anyway... just using single note collections usually gets old quick... so you either... embellish, add and alter those note collection... with some type of organization... or not... or for some, like myself... I combine different note collections with organized applications... using the techniques I mentioned above... I use the term... "Organized", for general meaning of using guidelines for applications. It's not random or by embellishment. Although I do use embellishment also. But the embellishments usually also have harmonic organization...

    Just like one can use rhythm to help create natural feeling and beautiful melodies, you can also use harmony... I didn't get into interval usage... but same approach.

    And obviously... there is always personal opinion. Which can reflect any number of reason. And obviously... when you perform.. as compared to composing... you don't really go through all these BS thought processes... because you train yourself to get past the details and just use the concepts, because during your practice or learning process... you develop understanding from common practice and also what you like.

    Or just copy all the masters and look for the magic... when I was a kid, that the way I started, I chose a different direction early.
    Last edited by Reg; 02-13-2018 at 09:34 PM.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post

    Beautiful melodies... follow formulas... there are choices but once you understand Harmony... I'm talking really understand harmony... and you get basic Spatial organization... part of which is understanding perceptions of motion... movement and rest. And what types of organization creates what type of feel and style... within Form.

    Which leads to having organized tonal targets... and organized melodic material which connects and supports the Target notes you choose.

    You can do this... by chance, sing what feels right and add rhythmic patterns. The rhythm need to create that perception that the melody is in an ordered sense of motion... and the shape... the location of the most important notes need to be in the right places... what ever formula you choose ... or just feel and trial and error your way there.

    I composed and arranges music for film, large ensembles all kinds of garbage... you don't have the time to trial and error scores, although with today's new technologies, you can plug and play... sort of trial and error your way around etc... it's not quantum mechanics, it just take a little work... depending on where one is with their skills and musicianship.

    Getting back to using note collections.... there are usually more collections of notes, (I'm using this term, collections of notes, because it seems to work for some), anyway... just using single note collections usually gets old quick... so you either... embellish, add and alter those note collection... with some type of organization... or not... or for some, like myself... I combine different note collections with organized applications... using the techniques I mentioned above... I use the term... "Organized", for general meaning of using guidelines for applications. It's not random or by embellishment. Although I do use embellishment also. But the embellishments usually also have harmonic organization...

    Just like one can use rhythm to help create natural feeling and beautiful melodies, you can also use harmony... I didn't get into interval usage... but same approach.

    And obviously... there is always personal opinion. Which can reflect any number of reason.
    I am beginning to understand some of your terminology, but, at this point, an example or two would really help.

    You mention "really understanding harmony". I know something about harmony. How can I tell if I "really" understand it? I'm not trying to be snarky here -- this is an honest question.

    My impression of the Galt section of the phrase I was talking about was that it used intervals within the Abmm scale in a way that sounded characteristic of the player's work. But, it's also everything else, including something rarely discussed in this context -- making every single note ring out perfectly.

    I believe that he could have done it with a steady stream of 16ths drawn entirely from Abmm. But, that's not to say you aren't right about use of harmony. There are a lot of chords inside of Abmm and he may have been outlining them in a way which I didn't appreciate. I don't know.

  23. #23
    So sounds like you understand harmony.... basically have a traditional functional harmony reference and have spent time with jazz harmony.

    Do you understand Modal interchange... Do you understand Modal concepts, not just the modes and the characteristic pitches etc... but how to to use modal harmony to create functional harmonic movement...with same perception of motion or non movement as traditional maj/min functional harmony. How do you create Blue note harmony...

    So yea I'll post something with some examples later tonight... I need to finish some arrangements for gigs..But shouldn't take long.

    Different notes against different chords create different effects... different feeling.. and when you have rhythmic and spatial organization of use of notes... you can control the results. Most tunes have some type of form. Forms mechanically create space and different spatial locations for different targets... Targets are just a method of organizing specific locations of what one chooses as levels of importance.
    They can also be Rhythmically organized based on patterns, grooves... Rhythmic grooves with Tonal targets at locations that have the most importance in a Form.

    So did your teacher imply anything with his use of G7altered, did his playing create dominant types of effects or was it more in the direction of opening a new door that still felt like you were still in the house or room... so more of a subdominant type of movement. Did he use that G7alt as access to more modal concepts... modal feeling of extending time, expanding the sense or perception of movement or sustain.

    Was it in the direction of creating some type of cycle... or did his playing just use creative notes to get back to the C chord or the tonic.
    Creative note usage usually implies chords and some type of chord movement.

    Or I'm I not making any sense and just make a vid with examples...

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    So sounds like you understand harmony.... basically have a traditional functional harmony reference and have spent time with jazz harmony.

    Do you understand Modal interchange... Do you understand Modal concepts, not just the modes and the characteristic pitches etc... but how to to use modal harmony to create functional harmonic movement...with same perception of motion or non movement as traditional maj/min functional harmony. How do you create Blue note harmony...

    So yea I'll post something with some examples later tonight... I need to finish some arrangements for gigs..But shouldn't take long.

    Different notes against different chords create different effects... different feeling.. and when you have rhythmic and spatial organization of use of notes... you can control the results. Most tunes have some type of form. Forms mechanically create space and different spatial locations for different targets... Targets are just a method of organizing specific locations of what one chooses as levels of importance.
    They can also be Rhythmically organized based on patterns, grooves... Rhythmic grooves with Tonal targets at locations that have the most importance in a Form.

    So did your teacher imply anything with his use of G7altered, did his playing create dominant types of effects or was it more in the direction of opening a new door that still felt like you were still in the house or room... so more of a subdominant type of movement. Did he use that G7alt as access to more modal concepts... modal feeling of extending time, expanding the sense or perception of movement or sustain.

    Was it in the direction of creating some type of cycle... or did his playing just use creative notes to get back to the C chord or the tonic.
    Creative note usage usually implies chords and some type of chord movement.

    Or I'm I not making any sense and just make a vid with examples...
    I'm not sure I understand the questions, so maybe I don't understand the material, or it may be a question of using different terminology.

    I didn't learn about modes until I'd been playing for decades. But, I knew about tonal centers and I knew that there are two types of chords (I studied with Warren Nunes, who taught this way). So I knew, for example, that C Em Gmaj7 and Am were interchangeable, as were Dm Fmaj7 and Am.

    I learned sometime later that all chords in mel min are interchangeable, and I do apply that in my playing.

    I know about, and use, moving voicings through scales. Mostly major and melodic minor.

    I'm aware of the various minor scales, but I generally adjust the 2, 6 and 7s by ear.

    I pretty much know the chord tones of any chord I play. If I have to think when I'm playing(to avoid clams) I think chord tones and then I pick other notes by ear.

    I'm also aware of what I learned to call "chord substitution". A big topic which includes reharmonization and also playing Scale X over Chord Y, in the context of the flow of the harmony of the tune.

    I know the term modal interchange, but I don't use that term in anything I do. so I don't know if I've learned what you're talking about in some other language, or if I'm completely unaware of the material.

    I tend to be interested in things in more than one way. I sort of like learning theory for its own sake. So, I'm interested in what you're talking about. And, I know, from your videos, that you can play. But, applying theory to my playing is another topic. I know that I'm very slow to pick up new sounds and incorporate them into my playing, so I don't like to bite off too much at a time.

    And, I work every day on doing more with the stuff I can already hear. That is, for example, being more accurate in making the jump from imagining a phrase and getting it out of the speaker the way I heard it in my mind. Today I spent an hour or so trying to lighten up on my pick-grip so that I didn't sacrifice speed due to a pick-death-grip. While I did that, I fiddled with amp settings so that I could get a better sound with a lighter touch. I tweaked the reverb setting in one of my patches to add depth without sounding like the guitar fell into a cave. I practice, daily, figuring out chord changes to standards in different keys, on the fly (to me this is ear and fluency training). Yesterday, I practiced reading from Leavitt Vol 4 (not that helpful). Different things. I'm recording on Saturday, so I'll probably practice those tunes for the rest of the week.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Would sound better if you just use Fmm for D- and Abmm for G7alt and then on the Cmaj7 use Blue notes...with Cmaj.
    Yes, I was fooling around with this a bit last night, and I noticed that CMM was... just OK. C Major with embellishments sounded better to me.

    Just to keep things straight...How my head works...I think of the II- chord as D-7b5, (and just use the 6th degree of Fmm for source of note collection. I don't think "Fmm"... I think D-7b5 with a natural 9th and know that the relationship is pulling from MM through Modal Interchange.

    The same with the G7altered, the V7 chord... I don't think of Abmm... I think and hear G7altered... and know the source of that G7altered is Abmm. Because that is the relationship I'm using

    The talking about... all these harmonic applications... all the spelling and labeling of the details... can seem complicated, but once you have the basics down... it becomes simple. It's like once you know numbers... and you get adding, subtraction, multiplying and division.. you don't always need to go through the complete process.... you know 5 x 5 is 25. And don't need to add 5 to 5 and add another 5 etc... you already know the answer is 25.
    Still with you. I know the major scale in this way, and am working on adding the MM to it. For me I think it's just getting used to the different orientation (e.g., When I think of D-7, I'm thinking in C, sort of (In a II-V-I context), so getting used to thinking in F is a bit of a shift. I've been using the altered scale for a while, but this is coming at it from a different direction).

    So once you begin to know different relationships with References... you already know the simple answer. ... in the II V I example... you already know the possibilities... And can also hear the different possibilities. When you use a G7altered going to Cmaj7.... you can hear the Blue Notes The #9 and b13 of the G7altered are the b7 and b3 of Cmaj7...which can be from Abmm.

    It is usually complicated at first... but it will make playing jazz much more interesting, and open many more possibilities of how to play standards.... It's a different approach as compared to embellishment... and its not like you need to quit using standard embellishment application.... It really is required to be able to comp in a jazz style... there are other approaches, Christian and many members on this forum like the BH approach... its very cool and has organization with applications.... I just think it sounds to much like mud on guitar. The voicings are better for solo guitar... I personally just don't like the Diminished... references. I don't like Diminished. It's more of an effect... not a function. And of course there is the old school approach of inversions... Vanilla...
    I'm intrigued by the BH approach, but I'm already pretty well versed in CST, and I don't see myself having the time or single-mindedness to learn a whole new organizational approach.

    It is a little complicated, but I don't think it will be that difficult to incorporate some of this stuff into what I do, which is kind of how I've acquired skills. One little thing at a time. Wish I'd done it as a teenager when my brain was more pliable, but at 52, it takes a while.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston Joe View Post
    Yes, I was fooling around with this a bit last night, and I noticed that CMM was... just OK. C Major with embellishments sounded better to me.



    Still with you. I know the major scale in this way, and am working on adding the MM to it. For me I think it's just getting used to the different orientation (e.g., When I think of D-7, I'm thinking in C, sort of (In a II-V-I context), so getting used to thinking in F is a bit of a shift. I've been using the altered scale for a while, but this is coming at it from a different direction).



    I'm intrigued by the BH approach, but I'm already pretty well versed in CST, and I don't see myself having the time or single-mindedness to learn a whole new organizational approach.

    It is a little complicated, but I don't think it will be that difficult to incorporate some of this stuff into what I do, which is kind of how I've acquired skills. One little thing at a time. Wish I'd done it as a teenager when my brain was more pliable, but at 52, it takes a while.
    The theoretical, "thinking" part of applying melodic minor was always confounding to me. Recently, I've been coming more to terms with the physical, kinesthetic aspect of the way Reg organizes things.

    The 6th string /2nd finger reference for each chord in the scale, combined with its up/down 3rd counterparts, is hugely important. His use of kind of "reference arpeggios" for each position, regardless of the chord of the moment, is VERY important for getting a real kinesthetic sense of the chord scale in each position. Gives you physical reference to the whole chord scale, while also giving a stronger physical reference for chord of the moment etc.

    I honestly wonder if it's just difficult to appreciate the significance of it if you've never done it the wrong way. Hence, his constant reference to this stuff being "easy" and "basic". It very much IS, ...IF you kind of approach the way he's talking about, but otherwise seems impossible. Anyway, it's very difficult to represent in text form.

    We probably should discuss reference licks for each position of melodic minor etc. I've seen Reg post examples for major. I would be interested in the melodic minor equivalents.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    The theoretical, "thinking" part of applying melodic minor was always confounding to me. Recently, I've been coming more to terms with the physical, kinesthetic aspect of the way Reg organizes things.

    The 6th string /2nd finger reference for each chord in the scale, combined with its up/down 3rd counterparts, is hugely important. His use of kind of "reference arpeggios" for each position, regardless of the chord of the moment, is VERY important for getting a real kinesthetic sense of the chord scale in each position. Gives you physical reference to the whole chord scale, while also giving a stronger physical reference for chord of the moment etc.

    I honestly wonder if it's just difficult to appreciate the significance of it if you've never done it the wrong way. Hence, his constant reference to this stuff being "easy" and "basic". It very much IS, ...IF you kind of approach the way he's talking about, but otherwise seems impossible. Anyway, it's very difficult to represent in text form.

    We probably should discuss reference licks for each position of melodic minor etc. I've seen Reg post examples for major. I would be interested in the melodic minor equivalents.
    I'm kind of the same. Though I do understand the theory and the justification behind it, the hard part for me is getting that kinesthetic sense. (Or as I've seen it put, I "know of" a lot more things than I "know.")

    I tend to have several guideposts for how I find position. I haven't really looked into Reg's way of orienting it, but I have a pretty good mental map of how the major scale lays on the fretboard, and I'm sure with practice, I'll find the same with MM. (Even though they're only one note different, it's a question of how you see the scale in relation to chord positions.)

    Right now, for me, after a couple of days of fooling around with it, it sounds clunky and amateurish, but give me a couple of months, and I think I'll have something.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

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