The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Don't know if anyone's said this already but, according to Wiki, Bossa rhythms are derived from Samba and Samba rhythms are derived from former African slave communities...

    Bossa nova - Wikipedia

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  3. #27

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    Another US pop artist from the 60s and early 70s whose music was influenced by bossa nova was Harry Nilsson, whose song 'Without Her' was turned into a full bossa nova by Blood Sweat and Tears.
    Nilsson did other bossa novas on his Aerial Ballet album, which featured stylistic orchestration by his MD, George Tipton.

    Gary McFarland made a slew of pop albums in the 60s which were heavily influenced by bossa nova, before his untimely death in the 1970s.
    Most of the hipper rock artists of the 60s were influenced by bossa nova like The Youngbloods, Arthur Lee and Love, Kenny Rankin, and others.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Bass lines in bossa are commonly samba based, root, 5, movement often in half or whole steps. in 2/4 with emphasis right on two and, to get it to groove, that note has to be placed just right.

    Right thumb plays alternating bass or just repeats the root.

    Right hand fingers pluck in a highly syncopated manner.

    They are clever with the voicings and the Chediak books show them.
    The Chediak books were a real eye opener after looking at Real Book charts for these tunes. The changes of Manha de Carnaval for instance...

    But to be honest just listening to Bossa is interesting. The whole thing of playing the 5th in the bass instead of the root - or the 3rd or 7th.... The fact that often the bass doesn't alternate, and it sounds kind of cooler not to quite often.

    And using triads quite often too... It's a real harmonic style...

    The tricky part is the feel.

    This is Bossa Nova on Netflix currently shows some of it. Every player did it a little differently.
    Nice! I'm going to watch that.

    Feel is tough for non-Braziians. Aside from the lilt of the samba swing (which is less pronounced to my ears in bossa than it is in samba) I notice there's a lot of nuance in exactly how long the notes are held for and quality of accent.

    When a Brazilian plays that stuff you feel like dancing in 2/4. It's easy to get close and hard to really nail.
    I always 'dance' in 11/8 regardless of the time signature.

    The harmony does strike me as older fashioned samba plus that album of Julie London's. Barney's use of
    9ths, passing tones and subs is all reflected in bossa. Of course, the original Bossa artists were familiar with sophisticated harmony, but perhaps Barney was the first they heard put it on guitar.
    I buy the Barney connection on the 'added note' chords - I don't hear any of that in the Samba stuff. While some is certainly more adventurous then whacking out three chords on a cavaco, the harmony is certainly simpler from the point of view of how the chords are stacked up.

    In fact, isn't that why Medonca & Jobim wrote Desifinado ('out of tune'), as a lyrical and musical response to the sambistas who questioned the adventurous harmony of Bossa Nova?

    But underlying it - these polka & classical influenced progressions which have a lot in common with pre-war US popular music... I keep bringing up Choro because the first Bossa song, Chega de Suadade, is a Choro form (in fact Jacob do Bandolim covered it) so I can't help but see a connection there, and Choro harmony can be pretty interesting and influenced by European classical music.

    I'm just wondering about the path from Charlie Christian's chord work, which was influenced, to my ear, by the 30s guys, and Barney, just 15 years later. I haven't listened to much late 40's guitar.
    I'd be interested in someone who could trace the links.... Maybe something to do with Van Eps?
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-26-2018 at 12:37 PM.

  5. #29

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    Incidentally, Charlie Christian wasn't really noted as a chord player, his chord knowledge AFAIK was functional but pretty basic... In fact his USP was not coming from the chordal background like most players of the 30s that started on Banjo...

    There were a lot of chord/melody players in the 30s but they tended not to use added note chords - most of it is based on triads, so it doesn't really answer our question, but I always like an excuse to post a bit of Dick McDonough....



    Anyway, comparing Van Eps pre and post war you certainly see more complex major and minor voicings...

    I think sometimes if you bring melody notes and chords together this starts to happen naturally... But the nerd in me really wants to know how it happened, and when!

  6. #30

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    I recall hearing someplace that they wrote Desafinado to be difficult to sing. Not sure why.

    Most of the choro songs I've heard didn't have harmony I associate with jazz, but I don't claim to be an expert.

    There are some monster players that I associate with Choro, like A. Penezzi and Yamandu Costa. There's nothing simplistic about anything they do, but it doesn't sound like jazz harmony to me.

    And, of course, there's some overlap among the various styles.

    With regard to the lilt ... I have a recording someplace of a great Brazilian drummer playing an egg shaker. As soon as he started, you could feel the samba lilt. Our American drummer, a long time pro, did not sound the same.

    There's an oscilloscope type graph of a Brazilian group playing samba -- I found somewhere on the Internet. It shows where they play the hits and compares them to where the metronome's 16th notes are. Unsurprisingly, they aren't the same. What is usually notated as 16th 8th 16th is not played exactly like that. In fact, if you play it perfectly with the metronome, it won't swing.

    A few years back I sat next to Kleber Jorge sp?, Sergio Mendes' guitarist, at a jam, playing Chega. He didn't do anything fancy right then, but his groove was just perfect. It's an elusive thing to a Gringo.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I recall hearing someplace that they wrote Desafinado to be difficult to sing. Not sure why.
    This is a web translation of the lyrics (as I don't speak Porteguese.)
    Joao Gilberto - Desafinado lyrics + English translation

    Joao Gilberto - Desafinado lyrics + English translation

    If you insist on labeling
    My performance as unmusical
    Even if I lied I should argue that:
    This is Bossa Nova, This is very natural
    What you don't know, nor can you foresee
    Is that those who sing out of tune do also have a heart

    And so on

    Most of the choro songs I've heard didn't have harmony I associate with jazz, but I don't claim to be an expert.
    Me neither...

    I think choro chords OTOH are straight forward....I've seen more Bossa-ish chords in charts but I wonder if I think of it more as a Western European thing - the thing is what do we mean when we talk about Bossa harmony (here taking the classic example of Jobim, things have obviously moved on since.)

    1) Advanced harmony - stacks of notes - Jazz influence


    Dmadd9, C6/9, Fmaj9 as opposed to
    Jobim has this (though sometimes less so than you'd think from some jazz charts of his songs.)

    Added notes can come from suspensions and functional ideas as well as 'colour harmony'. I'm thinking here of Aguas de Marco. I might play:

    C/Bb | % | Fmaj7/A | Fmin(maj7)/Ab | C6/9 | F#7#11 | Fmaj7 | Bb9 |

    Now this looks pretty 'jazz chart' but if you analyse what is actually happening, for the first five bars it's all diatonic motion against a chromatic bassline, and furthermore those upper notes are all moving through a series of dissonances towards an implied resolution - it's not simply colouristic harmony of stacked up thirds.

    E-E-E-E-D-C-C-C
    C-C-C-C-A-Bb-A-Ab
    G-F-F-F-E-E-E-D
    Bass
    Bb-A-Ab-G-F#-F-Bb (i.e. mostly chromatic....)

    Classical, even baroque harmony can be surprisingly rich when you write it down as chord symbols, because of all the suspensions.
    I find with Bossa songs (as far as I know them)

    2) Advanced harmony - interesting chord progressions - Classical music influence

    Dm C#o7 Cm6 G/B Bbmaj7 (derived from Chopin someone told me here on the forum.)

    Also original song book harmony. Here is a bit from the original sheet music changes to Songe D'Automne, played on the deck of the Titanic, so quite an old tune:

    Dm | Dm/C# | F/C | Co7 | Gm7 | C7 | F | A7b9

    This looks more like Jobim's kind of harmony, and Choro harmony.

    Choro has the latter, I think, more so than Samba..... The former I think comes from Barney and post-bop jazz...

    Actually in terms of stacking notes up, I think I find that type of harmony quite over-used... I'm much more interested in the latter because it rarely gets discussed. People turn everything into II-V-I's, and they are in there, but bass line movement is so important as well.... Anyway...

    There are some monster players that I associate with Choro, like A. Penezzi and Yamandu Costa. There's nothing simplistic about anything they do, but it doesn't sound like jazz harmony to me.

    And, of course, there's some overlap among the various styles.
    I would say it's more guitaristic - partly this is assisted by the fact that Bossa tunes are originally in good guitar keys.... Sax players call Triste for instance in Bb, so you end up having to play less authentic voicings...

    I think also going back to Jobim, we should remember he was interested in Debussy and Ravel too.

    With regard to the lilt ... I have a recording someplace of a great Brazilian drummer playing an egg shaker. As soon as he started, you could feel the samba lilt. Our American drummer, a long time pro, did not sound the same.

    There's an oscilloscope type graph of a Brazilian group playing samba -- I found somewhere on the Internet. It shows where they play the hits and compares them to where the metronome's 16th notes are. Unsurprisingly, they aren't the same. What is usually notated as 16th 8th 16th is not played exactly like that. In fact, if you play it perfectly with the metronome, it won't swing.
    Bosco (Brazilian percussionist & teacher) tells a funny story about this - recording a pop singer who had decided to go 'latin' with a German producer and the producer goes 'something is wrong with your 16th notes' - they aren't equal!' - literally would not stop until Bosco had ironed out all the swing from his playing...

    Somebody (I think it might have been you) posted an analysis of the samba swing that said the upbeat (i.e. the last 16th of the beat) actually falls on the 3rd triplet of the beat (like a swung upbeat.) This might not help you actually play it, but it's interesting....

    A few years back I sat next to Kleber Jorge sp?, Sergio Mendes' guitarist, at a jam, playing Chega. He didn't do anything fancy right then, but his groove was just perfect. It's an elusive thing to a Gringo.
    Ha, tell me about it!
    Last edited by christianm77; 01-26-2018 at 05:56 PM.

  8. #32

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    C/Bb | % | Fmaj7/A | Fmin(maj7)/Ab | C6/9 | F#7#11 | Fmaj7 | Bb9 |

    If you imagine holding xx555x, only the bass note changes for the first three chords, give or take a 9th. The C6/9 is, arguably, over G, and probably played 3x223x, but it's still almost the same thing.

    It finally changes with the F#7#11, but not by much. You can still hold the C and E, although most would move to 2x231x.

    Of course, if you really want to get it to sound right, you have to fingerpick it like the recording and nail the groove.


    <Dm C#o7 Cm6 G/B Bbmaj7 (derived from Chopin someone told me here on the forum.)>

    This seems more like what my Choro fakebook includes.

    Bosco (Brazilian percussionist & teacher) tells a funny story about this - recording a pop singer who had decided to go 'latin' with a German producer and the producer goes 'something is wrong with your 16th notes' - they aren't equal!' - literally would not stop until Bosco had ironed out all the swing from his playing...

    Somebody (I think it might have been you) posted an analysis of the samba swing that said the upbeat (i.e. the last 16th of the beat) actually falls on the 3rd triplet of the beat (like a swung upbeat.) This might not help you actually play it, but it's interesting....

    That wasn't me. I don't recall hearing that it falls right on the triplet. I recall hearing that it was in between the triplet and the 16th 8th 16th. But, it might be true. Notably, I've never seen anybody try to notate, exactly, what the experts actually play -- with all the nuance. And you're right, it's not just when you start the note, it's also when you release it, and how hard you hit it, compared to the other notes.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    C/Bb | % | Fmaj7/A | Fmin(maj7)/Ab | C6/9 | F#7#11 | Fmaj7 | Bb9 |

    If you imagine holding xx555x, only the bass note changes for the first three chords, give or take a 9th. The C6/9 is, arguably, over G, and probably played 3x223x, but it's still almost the same thing.

    It finally changes with the F#7#11, but not by much. You can still hold the C and E, although most would move to 2x231x.
    What I tried to say, but shorter & clearer :-)

    I should have written C 6/9 / G, which could just be written G6/9, TBH.

    Of course, if you really want to get it to sound right, you have to fingerpick it like the recording and nail the groove.
    Sure... One point which I don't think anyone picked up on when I posted it is the fact that it's quite well known to guitar players that Bossa and Django's voicings are similar... And hear the difference that fingerpicking as opposed to strumming makes.

    This for me goes back to jazz as it was before jazz education took off. Listen to the actual voicings Wynton Kelly's plays on Mobley's if I Should Lose you... (I have them somewhere.) It's not Berklee extended chords and II-V-I's.

    The feel makes the music sound like the music.... The value of a distinctive style of harmony to jazz (or bossa) I think is over-stated... There are some stylistic details, but the main thing as you say is FEEL.

    This seems more like what my Choro fakebook includes.
    Chopin via Ernesto Nazareth perhaps?

    That wasn't me. I don't recall hearing that it falls right on the triplet. I recall hearing that it was in between the triplet and the 16th 8th 16th. But, it might be true. Notably, I've never seen anybody try to notate, exactly, what the experts actually play -- with all the nuance. And you're right, it's not just when you start the note, it's also when you release it, and how hard you hit it, compared to the other notes.
    I think the analysis is intellectually interesting, but not the way to learn it...

    That said, working on samba tunes & percussion a little has helped my jazz feel I think... All about placement of the upbeat...

  10. #34

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    The best way to learn it, I think, is to listen to it a huge amount, play along with the recordings and, mostly, to play live with musicians who can already do it.

    I play every week with a group of Gringo Brazil-philes. Pro players (except for me). The best we ever sounded, by far, was when we were fortunate enough to have a Brazilian master pianist sit in with us. It was even more interesting that he spoke almost no English and we speak almost no Portuguese. But, when he played, we could suddenly perceive exactly where the groove was supposed to be.

    Well, or so I thought as we were playing. The recording was not quite so kind to me, at least. But it was still the closest I've been to it.

    And, to give the pianist his due, we've had other Brazilians sit in, and play great, but they didn't have the same effect on us.

    What we have been doing is hiring touring Brazilian players to give us combo lessons. This has worked out very well. We've had some top players do it. Contacts are generally made by vague personal introduction -- one of us often knows somebody they know.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    The best way to learn it, I think, is to listen to it a huge amount, play along with the recordings and, mostly, to play live with musicians who can already do it.

    I play every week with a group of Gringo Brazil-philes. Pro players (except for me). The best we ever sounded, by far, was when we were fortunate enough to have a Brazilian master pianist sit in with us. It was even more interesting that he spoke almost no English and we speak almost no Portuguese. But, when he played, we could suddenly perceive exactly where the groove was supposed to be.

    Well, or so I thought as we were playing. The recording was not quite so kind to me, at least. But it was still the closest I've been to it.

    And, to give the pianist his due, we've had other Brazilians sit in, and play great, but they didn't have the same effect on us.

    What we have been doing is hiring touring Brazilian players to give us combo lessons. This has worked out very well. We've had some top players do it. Contacts are generally made by vague personal introduction -- one of us often knows somebody they know.
    To me this is completely self evident, because I think that's the only way to play any music including US jazz. Videos etc are cool, but no replacement for doing it for real.

    However in jazz an industry has sprung up around pricey distractions.

    In fact we should put that in every thread.....

  12. #36

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    To circle back to the OP's academic endeavor about Bossa guitar, the best book I read is Bossa Nova: The Story of the Brazilian Music That Seduced the World by Ruy Castro.

    Not a dry scholastic tome, but rather written from interviews from the musicians, poets and composers themselves. It is surprising to read how much Sinatra and Stan Kenton influenced these young Brazilian musicians. Also the author provides surprising insight as is how Joao Gilberto developed the guitar and vocal style we know and love.

  13. #37

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    There is a documentary on Netflix about the history and development of bossa nova with interviews with many of the founders of the style. really interesting for music nerds. "The Is Bossa one" is the title IIRC.

    I love bossa. The groove, the harmonies, the way the melody sits in the groove against the chords. Ah, fabulous.

    The best compliment I have ever received about my playing- and probably the best compliment I will ever get- was when woman visiting from Rio de Janiero came up to me at a break and said "you play like a Brazilian." Wow, could have knocked me right over. I don't think it's really true but maybe it's because I am always happy and comfortable when I play bossa; it's a happy music even when the lyrics are tragic.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    There is a documentary on Netflix about the history and development of bossa nova with interviews with many of the founders of the style. really interesting for music nerds. "The Is Bossa one" is the title IIRC.

    I love bossa. The groove, the harmonies, the way the melody sits in the groove against the chords. Ah, fabulous.

    The best compliment I have ever received about my playing- and probably the best compliment I will ever get- was when woman visiting from Rio de Janiero came up to me at a break and said "you play like a Brazilian." Wow, could have knocked me right over. I don't think it's really true but maybe it's because I am always happy and comfortable when I play bossa; it's a happy music even when the lyrics are tragic.


    That's a great compliment!

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    it's a happy music even when the lyrics are tragic.
    A bit like Abba

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    A bit like Abba
    There's a comparison I would have never, ever thought of: bossa and ABBA.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    To me this is completely self evident, because I think that's the only way to play any music including US jazz. Videos etc are cool, but no replacement for doing it for real.
    As a teacher put it when I was at the new school: "for all the money you cats pay to come here, you should just hire Reggie Workman and Joe Chambers to come to your house every week and play with you. They'd get a taste and y'all would learn more than you ever could in a classroom".

    My entirely anecdotal observation from having learned a bunch of jobim tunes from jobim records is that he tends to use way more passing diminished chords and generally takes a lot more care in voice leading (particularly in the bass) than is typical in other "standard jazz songbook" harmony.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald
    As a teacher put it when I was at the new school: "for all the money you cats pay to come here, you should just hire Reggie Workman and Joe Chambers to come to your house every week and play with you. They'd get a taste and y'all would learn more than you ever could in a classroom".
    .
    I play with a rehearsal group every week doing Brazilian music. The group has hired a number of Brazilian masters to come in and give us a group lesson.

    One of them, the master pianist I mentioned in an earlier post, didn't speak any English, so we just played. I learned as much, or more, from that, than from anything else I've done in a two hour lesson.

    Compared to classes at a regular school, it pays the musicians more, costs us about the same (or a little more) and we can control the personnel. It really works out pretty well. My guess is that a lot of touring musicians would do it.

  19. #43

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    I feel like I just struck gold. I love the comments. I am a producer of ads and promos but I have a personal project on Brazilian music called Oba! Sounds of Brasil. More specifically it is about the influence of Brazilian music on non-Brazilian artists like David Byrne, Bjork, Beck, Pat Metheny etc. I mention Densmore's reference to bossa nova in the percussion of "Break on Through" and was searching for the clip when I landed here.

    Thanks, Michael

    Here's some info if you are interested:


    Oba! Sounds of Brasil is a brand-supported multi-platform music project onthe ongoing influence and enduring cool of Brazilian music.

    [COLOR=rgb(1.961000%, 1.961000%, 1.961000%)]Since the 1950s, Brazil has been virtually synonymous with music sincebossa nova--the powerful mix of samba, jazz and sophisticated yetromantic lyrics. F[/COLOR]ew nations take their music as seriously as does Brazil.Music almost defines the national identity, offering a soundtrack to life, aconstant ambiance of energy-infused percussion, mesmerizing rhythmsand melodies that entertain, enrich and nurture Brazilians through goodtimes and bad. Perhaps no other country relies so completely on themarriage of melody and lyric to define its essential character. Brazilianmusic reflects its people—their joy or despair, their capacity to celebrate,and the all-important concept of saudade or a deep longing or yearning.And it reflects ginga, the unifying principle of all Brazilian music or what wemight call swing. Ginga is almost indefinable, a mystical quality ofmovement and attitude evident in everything Brazilians do. As such musicis part of the Brazilian soul, and rhythm is in the way Brazilians speak, inthe way they walk, and in the way they play.


    [COLOR=rgb(1.961000%, 1.961000%, 1.961000%)]In the ensuing sixty plus years, Brazilian music has never really stoppedspeaking to the world, though the world may have stopped listening sointently. Some cultural observers like David Byrne argue music has beenthe primary cultural export of Brazil ever since but only a few of ushappened to notice.

    [/COLOR]
    [COLOR=rgb(1.961000%, 1.961000%, 1.961000%)]But that is changing. Over the last two decades the music world, led bydeejays, producers and remixers, has taken note as musicians across theglobe and across the music spectrum discover or rediscover the Braziliansound. Brazil's music can be found anywhere. Brazilian sounds also turnup regularly on radio or on music apps, in shopping malls or officebuildings, on mobile phones, computers, TV and in the cinema. Or visit aclub anywhere in the world and you will undoubtedly hear deejays spinning [/COLOR]some form of the Brazilian beat.



    [COLOR=rgb(1.961000%, 1.961000%, 1.961000%)]Brazilian music is a powerful magnet for contemporary artists everywhere.

    [/COLOR]
    These artists cross all musical genres and constitute a who's who ofpopular music: Frank Sinatra, Shakira, Ella Fitzgerald, Sting, Madlib,Snoop Dog, David Byrne, J Dilla, Mochilla, Paul Simon, The Doors, Yo YoMa, Bjork, Beck, Adele, Thievery Corporation, Coldplay, Gotye, QuincyJones, Herb Alpert, James Taylor, Sean Lennon, Ryuichi Sakamoto, BurtBacharach, Peter Gabriel, Beirut, Pat Metheny, Herbie Hancock, BarbraStreisand, The Beastie Boys and so many more—the list is huge and prettyawesome!


    Music crosses all borders and [COLOR=rgb(1.961000%, 1.961000%, 1.961000%)]Brazil draws on influences beyond itsboundaries. It is also true but rarely considered that Brazilian musiccontributes more to the musical zeitgeist than it takes. Music is Brazil'sgreatest gift to the world. Brazil exerts an influence over the world musicscene that is probably second only to the United States and yet manylisteners have "the tip of the iceberg view". They know bossa nova, TomJobim, Sergio Mendes and some may even have heard of Elis Regina orSeu Jorge. But there's so much more to be found below the waterline.

    [/COLOR]
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  20. #44

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    I always find it delightful when I pick up on what sounds like Brazilian influences in USA pop music. I remember years ago when the older kids would say they liked the Isley Brothers because “You can Latin-dance to them.” When I got older, I noticed that the chords and feel of many of their songs were just as much bossa as they were soul.

    Listen to the bassline of “Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground)” by the Jacksons. It sounds as if it were directly swiped from northeastern Brasil.

  21. #45

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    I'm going to be a little contrarian. Peter Spitzer's Music Blog has several interesting posts on Jobim's borrowing of progressions from jazz and American Popular Music including "More Jobim Tunes with Borrowed Chords."

  22. #46

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    Some of the original Bossa Nova guitarists have been interviewed. They listened to American music, among other influences. They mention passing around a copy of Barney Kessel with Julie London and lifting the chords.