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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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01-20-2018 04:51 AM
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To throw my 2 cents on the fire: what’s going on in the 6th bar of the blues can be viewed as a IV7(b9), that’s certainly not wrong especially speaking as guitarists, that’s what it would look like on the fretboard. But a plausible 2nd thought is it’s a V7(b9)/V in first inversion that ends up leading to a deceptive resolution to I7/5 (I7 with the 5th in the bass.) Now if you were to ask Berklee aka the International House of Chords, they actually refer to it as a #IVdim7, which falls under their category of “ascending diminished” which takes a diatonic diminished scale, not a symmetrical diminished scale (not to say you couldn’t go sym if you wanted to.) Ex: in the key of C we’d be talking F#dim7. The Berklee way would say to make the chord scale by laying out the arpeggio and filling in the gaps with diatonic notes:
F# G A B C D Eb E.
As opposed to the symmetric:
F# G# A B C D Eb E.
As you can see the only difference in this particular case is the G vs G#. If you do it the “right way” you lose out on the available T9 on the diminished chord you’d otherwise get by using the symmetric scale. Not that big a difference but believe me, they’d nail you on a test for that mistake! Lol
To answer the question about the chart, if it says dim, you certainly can’t go wrong by playing the triad because even if they meant min7(b5) or dim7, you’re not playing any wrong notes, only omitting one. If you’re going to throw a 7 on it though, it’d probably be a dim7 not a min7(b5). And even if they did mean min7(b5) and you played a dim7 you’d still be good. Let me explain through examples.
Let’s say you’re in C and they write Bdim going to Cmaj7 when they meant Bmin7(b5) and you chose Bdim7. Even though Bmin7(b5) is diatonically correct, you could tell the guy “hey man, I know, I’m just borrowing from the parallel harmonic minor” in which case, your hip! Yay! If that chord happened to be over a G bass note it’d essentially be a G7(b9) where the Bmin7(b5) would sound like a G9. So you’d still be hip! (Yay bebop!)
Next example. Say you’re still in C and it’s still Bdim and the cat still meant Bmin7(b5) and you play Bdim7 but this time it’s going to an E7 and then A-7. You’re still good because a Bdim7 reflects the sound of an E7(b9) which is almost always the sound used for minor II-Vs. So the effect is you’re playing an E7(b9) for two bars, only the first bar the bass player is playing a B and the second bar he’s playing an E. All you miss out on is the voice leading that would’ve happened from the A to the G#. No biggie.
Final example. Let’s say it’s a passing diminished like people have referenced earlier like Emin7 to Ebdim7 to Dmin7. Passing diminished chords are only ever triads or full dim7 chords, not min7(b5) chords, so you still win! The only exception might be if that same progression was going to a Dmin7(b5) chord instead of a Dmin7 in which case the Ebmin7(b5) would be a chromatic approach to the Dmin7(b5) and not a passing diminished. But who the hell would do that anyway? So don’t worry about it.
Exceptionally long story short, if it says dim and you’re scared, play the triad. If it says dim and you feel ballsy, play the dim7, the odds are in your favor. And if you’ve had a few drinks and want to ruin the singers night, tell the bass player a few bars in advance “go up a half step on that diminished chord” and play the change with him. Just make sure you have someone recording video in the audience. You won’t want to miss their face! It’ll be a great memory to show your grandkids.
Rant over.
Noah
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I’ve just taught a fella and we’ve been playing around with the concept - pretend that o7 chord is actually a Ii-v-I for soloing purposes.... so on
Cm7 C#o7 Bb/D
Play
Cm7 F7 Bb
Or vice versa.
It sounds great.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Probably stick a b9 bebop type of thing as I would tbh on most 2 5 1s - anything you’ve listed would works
Yes I just view the C#o7 as a tension passing to Cm7 or Bb etc, and the dim like the V7 is a pathway to that destination.
Where it gets fun for me is when you realise those ‘funny dim’ things (eg C#o7 Bb/D) can be used as a pathway over the F7.
It all depends on whether you want to pick out a chord as a sound in its own right or whether it’s a means to end
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Xx5546
Xx5656 Idim
Xx6566
Dims are strange ....
Because vii dim resolves to I as well ...!
Like
Xx5343
Xx4545 viidim
Xx5566
I'm trying to get my head round this dim stuff
At the no
Carry on
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Yeah, I absolutely know what you’re talking about. And ah! I didn’t realize that the C#dim7 was actually a “Idim7” until pingu pointed it out. Not that it didn’t make sense before but now it really makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Noah D'Innocenzo
VIIo7 IIo7 IVo7 bVIo7 - related to V7 (and III7, bVII7 and bII7) and resolving in the same way -
leading tone diminished chords...
Io7 bIIIo7 #IVo7 VIo7 - related to II7 (and IV7, bVI7, VII7) and resolving in a different way - common tone diminished chords.
Both fulfil a similar function - to resolve, which is why the 'pretend they're all the same' works (as jazz is music of harmonic and rhythmic layers) - but the details of how they resolve are pretty different...
Note that the second category makes an efficient bridge between tonic (I) and subdominant (IV) and is often neglected by modern jazz musicians.
C E G A - C6/Am7
C Eb G Ab - Co7
C D F A - F6/Dm7
Many non-functional ii-V's, for instance the #IVm7b5 VII7b9 going to IIm7 V7 in Stella - are substitutes for these common tone diminished chords.
A good example of a II7-I resolution BTW is in the last few bars of Embraceable You. Also in After You've Gone. Can be substituted for a common tone diminished. Also VII7-I instead of #IVo7-I - Jeff Matz did this in the bluegrass thing he posted for instance... The IV7 - I cadence in blues, the bVI7-I cadence in Early Jazz, and so on.
These chords have a bluesy quality (b5, b3.) I think of the common tone diminished and related chords as being the heart of American harmony - Ragtime, Country, Gospel, Blues, Jazz etc...
The wikipedia article is actually really good Diminished seventh chord - WikipediaLast edited by christianm77; 01-21-2018 at 01:55 PM.
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Time for a Form 24B submittal to the Jazz Police.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Also, kind of unrelated, I personally like the bVI7 sound still. I think it’s very colorful.
When I first learned how diminished chords connected dominant chords and the linear and harmonic opportunities it offered as well as how simple it was to implement, my mind was blown in the best way possible.
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Not wishing to irritate anyone on my first post . . . But context may be the largest factor for naming (and improvising). Maybe.
Joe Pass wrote something in the "Orange Book" on the order of "I treat diminished as dominant family." In the blues example cited at the beginning, the diminshed chord #IV dim7 really doesn't sound diminished. It sounds major-ish. Its effect is almost the same as moving a major chord from root in the bass to 3rd in the bass - sort of a 'lifting' harmonic sound. (G blues goes to IV chord C, then C#dim7 as we all call it, and so on.)
A true diminished sound is really heard best, IMHO, with I major to I diminished, or I dom seventh going to I dim7. Lazy music engravers may have chosen the Dim7 when the chord was functioning as some kind of dominant/major sound flying by in US pop music of the 20s-50s.
The fact that 7b9 chords can present 4 roughly enharmonic equivalents a minor third apart, like the dim7 chords do, can just add to the confusion IMHO.
The following progression might illustrate the dim7 - dom7b9 conundrum. First a set of stock changes, root in the bass, two beats each:
Gma7 G#dim7 | Ami7 A#dim7 | Bmi7 Cdim7 | etc.
This could be a typical jazz progression with "passing chords" sort of, and named using the diminished chord names.
Now try this:
Gmaj7 G#dim7 E7 | Ami7 A#dim7 F#7 with the beats below, and roots in the bass:
_1 2____3_____4 __1 2____3____4
In fact, you could replace the E7 with the root in the bass, with an E/G# - [E with G# in the bass (or even E7/G#)]
I agree with everyone chiming in on NOT throwing a mi7b5 into the mix (aka a half diminished). A mi7b5 is more likely to precede a V7b9 (or 11b9 or 13b9) from the harmonic minor scale. Hello 'black orpheus.'
In many jazz situations, it seems to me, the dim 7 chord is really sounding quite different from the I to I dim sound. That's more likely to be the place where the classical composers refer to the dark/scary/etc. type sounds. They often just kept inverting the dim to a higher inversion to help build to a scare.
I don't think you can go wrong by listening to the context. Beginner blues players roll over the #IV dim7 with a minor pentatonic from the root of the blues (G minor pent over everything in G blues) because it sounds ok. But each of us will hear things our own way. My point would be to listen to the context and decide from there.
(Apparently, as you can see, I don't know how to use the typical beat mark - / and space it with this editor. Sorry about that.)
-Bob
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Yes, so forgive me if this is an incomplete reading, but you say true diminished = common tone diminished. Leading tone diminished is a dominant. Which is true. I can go with that.
Check out the changes to the B section of 'James' BTW.
Leading tone diminished chords/dominants are kind of the more boring/obvious half of the diminished world.
Now.... This is my jam:
Dm9 Dbo7 Cm7 G/B Bbmaj7
'Beginner blues players roll over the #IV dim7 with a minor pentatonic from the root of the blues (G minor pent over everything in G blues) because it sounds ok.'
I guess I'm a beginner blues player lol.... Well I use G blues, with the Db.... IMPORTANT!
What does Parker do? Well IV7 mostly.... But he likes the blues scale on IV7. A lot. Check out Confirmation. So he's a beginner blues player as well... Notice how Bird does not play the full blues scale with b7.
But I know what you mean. It's an easy solution... It's also a very good one. In fact - I would go further and say that what we think of as the blues scale - which is really mostly from jazz phrases using b5-4-b3-1 which go back to the 20s and 30s - is intimately connected to that diminished seventh.
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Oh BTW - should go with out saying that
IV #IVo7 I
And
IV IVm6 I
Are interchangeable. Take a look at some bebop heads. Or the different versions of Rhythm Changes and Blues....
Use of one over the other is based on the melody. In C, if the melody is on A, don't play the second, for instance. But for solos - whatever.
I abstract this (as mentioned above so that)
IV #IVo7 I
IV IVm6 I
IIm7 V7 I
IIm7 bIIIo7 III (or I)
Are all interchangeable... And I believe this is borne out by the practice of musicians on record from the Harmonic Jazz era (1920s - 60s)
So, say not II V I but, instead
Subdominant - Voice leading gubbins - Tonic
Or (Julian Lage) bla bla bla bla one
Just watch out for the melody when it's an issue.
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You read between my lines very well. What you said was what I intended. I play pents all over the place, including the IV7b9. I meant it is often the default or 'fall back' sound with that chord in that situation. I've got to write better . . .
The diminished/7b9 arpeggio from #IV really delivers the sound in that situation if you're trying to distinguish that 'upward pull' all whatever its called. that is really another shortcut of sorts.
I agree with your observation about the blues scale 5 down to 1 of the 20's and 30s as far as its origin/influence. The first time I heard a #4 was from a Jazz player.
bob
Grant Green, What is This Thing
Today, 01:59 PM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading