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  1. #1

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    I've been holding off doing a study group because I didn't want to saturate the market. But I thought a study group focussed on chords/re-harminization/chord-melody might be interesting to people. I suppose if no one joins it is just a few kb on the server.

    I feel A. Kingstone's book is a gold mine, and I notice that there was a call to do a study group on this before. So here it is! I know there is a dedicated Barry Harris thread, but most of it is focussed on single line improvisation. Alan's book doesn't really seem focussed on that (although maybe this study group will prove otherwise). I've read through the book a couple times, and each time I feel like a layer of fog in my brain is removed and I "see" something new.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I thought that as a format we could walk through the sections, post what we understand about it, and help each other fill in the gaps.


    To get the ball rolling, here is my take on the "scales" section of chapter one:


    Four scales are presented, although I really don't understand what the last two are for in the context of harmonization and constructing chords.


    The Major6dim scale: What is interesting is that by looking at a major6 chord's 4 tones and combining them with the 4 tones of a diminished chord you get all the notes of the traditional major scale plus one note. You end up with an eight note scale just like the seven note scale with the addition of a b6 note.


    This is the main building block for building the chords presented later in the book. Lots of questions about that next step, but for this first post I'll just share my observations about the scale itself.


    Also, as far as I can tell, Kingstone doesn't discuss how/if you would use this scale to develop single line improvised melodies. But that is OK for me, as the gold in this book is about harmony and re-harmonizing. Single line improvisation is covered elsewhere.

  4. #3

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    Next, The Minor6dim scale: This one is built the same way, except with the minor6 chord and the same diminished 4 notes. Again we end up with a familiar scale, the melodic minor, with one addition: the major 6. That gives us the same three chromatic notes: 5-b6-6 we had in the major scale.


    This one is a bit less obvious for me. Unlike the minor modes of the major scale, this one is not contained within the Maj6dim scale. It does have more HWH feel that invoke dim in my mind. But my mind just resist a minor with a major seventh. I know that the notion of a minor mode with a minor seventh is actually not that old or common in the history of Western music, but it was what I knew.


    The book also uses this scale to build the chords used later in harmonization, although much less. A LOT of questions to follow on how to use these progressions.

  5. #4

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    Last, we get the DOMdim and DOMb5dim scales. Built the same way as the others. Unless I am missing something, they are never discussed again in the book after simply being presented. Not sure what to do with them, but there they are. Maybe someone will know more.

  6. #5

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    NB: I got the book from a friend who had lost the CD, so I don't have Kingstone's recordings. I have recorded the scales FWIW:


  7. #6

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    I spent a summer doing nothing but repeating every chord inversion in every key in every position from Kinstone's book until I knew them cold. Changed everything for me. I no longer even think of them as something separate, they are now just the basis of how I see everything on the fretboard. That book had the single biggest impact on my playing outside of one specific guitar instructor I had in Chicago. Alan come in and out of the board once in a while and is a great guy. There are quite a few threads on the book here so if you get stuck, check them out. Enjoy the book. The time invested into learning the inversions cold is worth it.
    Seeking beauty and truth through six strings.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo View Post
    I spent a summer doing nothing but repeating every chord inversion in every key in every position from Kinstone's book until I knew them cold. Changed everything for me. I no longer even think of them as something separate, they are now just the basis of how I see everything on the fretboard. That book had the single biggest impact on my playing outside of one specific guitar instructor I had in Chicago. Alan come in and out of the board once in a while and is a great guy. There are quite a few threads on the book here so if you get stuck, check them out. Enjoy the book. The time invested into learning the inversions cold is worth it.
    I didn't find a lot of threads about the book when I searched, but that is the way of searching on a forum I guess. I hope a systematic study group going through the book methodically doesn't come across as duplicative. In any case, I hope you stick around and share what you learned as the study group works through the material. Assuming other people join in, of course

  9. #8

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    Alan's book is about chords rather than single lines, I understand there is another whole Barry Harris method about that.

    Anyway here's something I posted before which you might find useful:

    Barry Harris chord movements - My Romance

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Alan's book is about chords rather than single lines, I understand there is another whole Barry Harris method about that.
    Right. Exactly! That is why I wanted to start this group. The Barry Harris post seemed more about lines. I know you are an accomplished pro player, so a study group on the book is probably not your speed. But I do hope others will join in. Thanks for the link.

  11. #10

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    I've spent quite a bit of time with Alan's book and feel like I have a pretty good grasp of the chords & their inversions - what would really help me would be specific examples of those applied to actual tunes. thanks

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    I've been holding off doing a study group because I didn't want to saturate the market. But I thought a study group focussed on chords/re-harminization/chord-melody might be interesting to people. I suppose if no one joins it is just a few kb on the server.

    I feel A. Kingstone's book is a gold mine, and I notice that there was a call to do a study group on this before. So here it is! I know there is a dedicated Barry Harris thread, but most of it is focussed on single line improvisation. Alan's book doesn't really seem focussed on that (although maybe this study group will prove otherwise). I've read through the book a couple times, and each time I feel like a layer of fog in my brain is removed and I "see" something new.
    I love this idea. I have this book. I started it but did not get very far. I can not commit to another study group but I would like to keep an eye on what you guys are doing and how you are approaching the material. I may jump in later when my workload is a little lighter. If I remember correctly, this is quite a heavy book in terms of heavy concepts that require concentrated work.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Right. Exactly! That is why I wanted to start this group. The Barry Harris post seemed more about lines. I know you are an accomplished pro player, so a study group on the book is probably not your speed. But I do hope others will join in. Thanks for the link.
    Thanks, I'm just a guy with an office job, not a pro player! I've got a lot out of this book so I'm happy to offer any information I can.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Last, we get the DOMdim and DOMb5dim scales. Built the same way as the others. Unless I am missing something, they are never discussed again in the book after simply being presented. Not sure what to do with them, but there they are. Maybe someone will know more.
    Yes I didn't really look at these much initially. You could use them to move around on a dominant chord, or a dom7b5 chord. I've used the first one a bit, but not the second.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Thanks, I'm just a guy with an office job, not a pro player! I've got a lot out of this book so I'm happy to offer any information I can.
    You sound like a pro, and that's all that matters. Always love to hear you play.

    In terms of actually being a pro... we'll that's entirely not about how you play.:-) But anyway that's OT, and I'm sure you kind of know what I mean....

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You sound like a pro, and that's all that matters. Always love to hear you play.

    In terms of actually being a pro... we'll that's entirely not about how you play.:-) But anyway that's OT, and I'm sure you kind of know what I mean....


    The difference between you and he is crystal clear--both of you are apparently on B.S.T. (British Standard Time). One is fast asleep, ready for the morning routine of daily mourning (the ritualistic process mildly staring at the cubicle/computer screen while attempting to maintain a faint, pretextual appearance of showing a modicum of interest).

    The other is clearly maintaining pro musician (or as the British apparently say, "muso") hours!
    Navdeep Singh.

  17. #16

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    Count me in. Although I've only scratched the surface of AK's distillation of BH's harmony teachings, they've opened my ears to sounds I probably would never have discovered on my own.

    I've mainly focused on trying to create sounds I like in tunes like Autumn Leaves. I'll post a video showing a couple of the things I've come up with by borrowing alto notes from the subsequent chord.

  18. #17

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    I'd like to get to the point where I can move around within the chords of a tune without having to think much about it.

  19. #18

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    Great! I think the next step (assuming no one wants to add something Earth shattering about the scales themselves) is to look at just the chord scale built on the Maj6dim. Like many I love the sound of progressions I can build from it and noodle around with the chords but don't quite understand how to use them to approach re-harmonizing an existing tune or building a chord-melody arrangement. But something tells me there is something truly amazing just beyond the next bend.

    I'll post a video tomorrow on the voicings and the overall progression.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    I'd like to get to the point where I can move around within the chords of a tune without having to think much about it.
    Fundamentally, you're essentially creating V-I cadences all over the fingerboard between the Dim chord and the various inversions of the I6 chord. Tension and release, dissonance to consonance. Plus the subs: sub IV6 for iim7 and V6 for iiim7 etc.
    Navdeep Singh.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You sound like a pro, and that's all that matters. Always love to hear you play.

    In terms of actually being a pro... we'll that's entirely not about how you play.:-) But anyway that's OT, and I'm sure you kind of know what I mean....
    Thanks Christian, appreciated. I'm pretty sure I don't have the persistence to be a pro, I'm a lazy sod by nature!

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Great! I think the next step (assuming no one wants to add something Earth shattering about the scales themselves) is to look at just the chord scale built on the Maj6dim. Like many I love the sound of progressions I can build from it and noodle around with the chords but don't quite understand how to use them to approach re-harmonizing an existing tune or building a chord-melody arrangement. But something tells me there is something truly amazing just beyond the next bend.

    I'll post a video tomorrow on the voicings and the overall progression.
    The 'My Romance' link I posted has some info. about harmonising that tune.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Great! I think the next step (assuming no one wants to add something Earth shattering about the scales themselves) is to look at just the chord scale built on the Maj6dim. Like many I love the sound of progressions I can build from it and noodle around with the chords but don't quite understand how to use them to approach re-harmonizing an existing tune or building a chord-melody arrangement.
    I don't have the book to hand, but if you've seen Pasquale Grasso's videos from mymusicmasterclass.com, he gives a very clear example in the first video of how to harmonise the melody of 'My Ideal' using the 6th diminished scale.

    London Jazz Guitar Society:
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  24. #23

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    Love Alan Kingstone's book.

    The ghost of an idea - on the fly, as it were, and a 'pyjama post' for a recent Practical Standard:


    Moves from Billie's All of Me in Marty Grosz tuning:
    Last edited by destinytot; 04-11-2017 at 06:23 AM.

  25. #24

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    Here's something cool I got out of the book: Take any of the chord shapes which cover the bottom 4 strings, omit the 5th string (i.e. only play strings 6,4,3), and you have your 'swing/Freddie green' rhythm chords right there.

  26. #25

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    Thanks, grahambop! I did read through your post. I do have some specific questions, but I'll leave them for later as they pertain to things like his "major-minor-minor6" concept and his "6th on the 5th" concept that are further along. It's HARD to do a study group when the material isn't laid out in lessons!

    I've made a second video for the next section covering the Harmonized Maj6dim. As I say in the video, I think it is GREAT sound that lends itself to noodling while always sounding satisfying. It has much the same feel as the Hamonized 7th major scale. It feels like you could use it exclusively for any key/tonality center and make it sound hip and engaging. One thing that does leave me with a bit of a head scratcher is the dim chord built on the 4th note of the scale. It sounds great as a passing chord, but obviously our ears are far more used to a movement to the fourth sounding sweet and as a close kissing cousin to the Imaj chord. A little further on Kingstone demonstrate a cadence from a I6 to a IV6 with two voices moving. If you were just to stick to the Maj6dim you would never get the IV6. When we get there I would love to have the bigger universe of what is happening there explained. For now, here is my take on just the Maj6dim chords:


  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Thanks Christian, appreciated. I'm pretty sure I don't have the persistence to be a pro, I'm a lazy sod by nature!
    As in phoning people up again and again until they cave in and give you a gig?

    The master of this is a mister Nigel Price, of course :-) he plays great, of course (and crucially he is a great showman of the guitar imo) but he sinks in the soul destroying hours at the phone and the computer.

    I always think of Nige when I moan about it having enough gigs :-)

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Thanks, grahambop! I did read through your post. I do have some specific questions, but I'll leave them for later as they pertain to things like his "major-minor-minor6" concept and his "6th on the 5th" concept that are further along. It's HARD to do a study group when the material isn't laid out in lessons!

    I've made a second video for the next section covering the Harmonized Maj6dim. As I say in the video, I think it is GREAT sound that lends itself to noodling while always sounding satisfying. It has much the same feel as the Hamonized 7th major scale. It feels like you could use it exclusively for any key/tonality center and make it sound hip and engaging. One thing that does leave me with a bit of a head scratcher is the dim chord built on the 4th note of the scale. It sounds great as a passing chord, but obviously our ears are far more used to a movement to the fourth sounding sweet and as a close kissing cousin to the Imaj chord. A little further on Kingstone demonstrate a cadence from a I6 to a IV6 with two voices moving. If you were just to stick to the Maj6dim you would never get the IV6. When we get there I would love to have the bigger universe of what is happening there explained. For now, here is my take on just the Maj6dim chords:

    Good video. I pulled out the book again after a long time of never having actually gone through it and I agree with you that it looks very interesting. I am going to work through it now as well and have reviewed the first bit and seem to be about where you are.

    One thing that you were doing in the video that I am looking at a bit differently is that you seem to be focusing your attention on the different scale degrees as you are playing the different inversions. I may be wrong but I thought that the point was to generate movement within the same chord by using the inversions and connecting them with the related diminished chord.

    So when I am learning the different inversions I am focusing on the root rather than the scale degrees. In that way, all of the G6 chords and their inversions can be used over G6 and you can generate movement over a static G major using all of the inversions and connecting them with the diminished chords. You can start with any of the inversions and go from there. Again, I am seeing them all as G6 in your example rather than thinking too much about the scale degree. The chord scale with the inversions becomes G6-Adim-G6-Adim-G6-Adim-G6-Adim and so on.

    Also, in terms of using the method in tunes, if you see a 2 5 1 in G for example (ie Am7-D7-GM7) the idea I believe is to look at it through the lens of 6th chords so that progression becomes - C6-Am6-G6 and their related diminished chords...or using the 5th of the 6th thing G6-Am6-G6...or C6-Ebm6-D6 for an altered sound on the dominant and using the 5th of the 6 for the maj9 sound on the tonic...something like that.

    I suspect that the BH method then creates possibilities with respect to harmonising tunes that wouldn't necessarily flow otherwise while also creating the opportunity to create nice movement within the chord of the moment.

    Later it looks like BH creates even more movement and interest by adding neighbouring notes from related diminished chords to the 6th chords to add even more movement and more interesting progressions.

    I could be wrong about this as I am just getting into it but that's how I am looking at it so far.

    Keep up the good work.
    Last edited by ColinO; 04-12-2017 at 08:49 AM.
    Still working on it.

  29. #28

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    Here are some basic rules for using the Barry Harris chord-scales (taking C chords as the example):

    C maj : use C6/dim

    Cmin: use Eb6/dim (or Cmin6/dim if you want the min6 sound)

    C7 : use Gmin6/dim

    C7alt: use Dbmin6/dim. (Dbmin6 gives a C7#5b9 sound). Or use Edim chord, or Gdim, or Bbdim, or Dbdim, these give a C7b9 sound.

    Cdim: use Cdim chord and move it in minor thirds (obviously!). You can also move around on dim chords using whole-half-whole-half steps if you want more movement, this also applies to the C7b9 useage above.

    Cmin7b5 : use Ebmin6/dim.


    Last edited by grahambop; 04-12-2017 at 01:35 PM.

  30. #29

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    To me, the most obvious basic application is on static chords lasting 2 measures, perhaps simply moving up or down the neck and alternating between the maj6 (or min6) chords and the diminished chords. Sometimes I will enclose the I (or i) chord with surrounding diminished chords or diminished chords that borrow the alto voice from the next highest chord.

    I am curious to ask, though, how you guys might be using the BH approach when a chord lasts just one measure, or even less than one measure. What sort of comping rhythms are you playing over these faster moving changes?

    I will sometimes precede the chord of the moment with a related diminished chord (with or without borrowing). For example, if there's one measure of C maj I will play a B diminished on the 4 or 4+ of the measure before.

    The thing is, BH talks about freeing oneself from ii-V, so I'm wondering if anyone has some examples of moving "through" changes without simply substituting the BH chords for what the Real Book might notate as a ii-V. Without extensive use of borrowing notes, it seems that the basic approach is really alternating between V and I, as NSJ stated earlier in the thread.
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 04-12-2017 at 03:53 PM.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    To me, the most obvious basic application is on static chords lasting 2 measures, perhaps simply moving up or down the neck and alternating between the maj6 (or min6) chords and the diminished chords. Sometimes I will enclose the I (or i) chord with surrounding diminished chords or diminished chords that borrow the alto voice from the next highest chord.

    I am curious to ask, though, how you guys might be using the BH approach when a chord lasts just one measure, or even less than one measure. What sort of comping rhythms are you playing over these faster moving changes?

    I will sometimes precede the chord of the moment with a related diminished chord (with or without borrowing). For example, if there's one measure of C maj I will play a B diminished on the 4 or 4+ of the measure before.

    The thing is, BH talks about freeing oneself from ii-V, so I'm wondering if anyone has some examples of moving "through" changes without simply substituting the BH chords for what the Real Book might notate as a ii-V. Without extensive use of borrowing notes, it seems that the basic approach is really alternating between V and I, as NSJ stated earlier in the thread.

    That is exactly where I am coming from, and the reason for me proposing this study group. I have heard of BH harmonization as a whole system for harmonization. A different way to think about harmonizing melodies and entire tunes outside of the traditional harmonized major scale. It seems to me like there is more to it than just a handful of new subs that can be used in place of fake book chords. I think there is a depth here that goes beyond just a new sub for a ii-V, but maybe I'm wrong.

    The very next section in the book, "Brothers and Sisters" seems to speak to that. I admit I don't fully understand what "playing with your siblings" means. I hope to get there very soon. I'll do a video in the next day or two where I discuss some of the issues, like why min6 sibling when it seems like there is a maj6 sibling that would follow the exact same rule? Why a min6 on the dominant's bII when we just demonstrated a dim on that same note? I don't want to skip ahead, but that is what I see coming up.

    There seems to be some resistance to dealing with the material systematically as a study group. Perhaps it was a mistake on my part to start at the beginning of the book. I just assumed there would other people who had not looked at this material who would appreciate a start to finish approach. Maybe let people get the basic building blocks first. I was hoping other people who were exploring this for the first time like me would post their discoveries as they worked it out (thanks grahambop for the Freddie Green tidbit!). I wasn't thinking of this as my personal quest for specific answers.

    I apologize if anyone is getting frustrated by my pedantic approach, but I think I will continue to slog through in study group fashion. I think things get very interesting in the "Brothers and Sisters", "6th on the 5th", and "Major-Minor-Minor6" sections. But I don't fully understand them. There seems to be something just beyond my grasp there I hope to explore with fellow forumites.

  32. #31

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    I see the BH approach as a way to create more movement on the chords, that's a large part of it. A diminished chord is unstable, you've got to move away from it and go somewhere, so including diminished chords helps force you to keep moving. But it's also very simple, you're basically alternating tonic-dominant which is the standard movement in a lot of music e.g. Classical music.

    It's also simple because you only need to learn the inversions of the 6th chords (everyone knows the diminished chords already, right?) so that is not much to learn really, then you can apply these chord-scales in all the contexts I described in post no. 28 above. So it's a lot easier than trying to move around on harmonised chords of the major scale for example. Wes Montgomery's chord solos use the BH chords to a large extent, you can see why he did that, it's the easiest way to create chord solos over the chord sequence of a tune.

    When you've got the approach assimilated, it does make chord-melody stuff a lot easier. But for this I also draw on my knowledge of other chord voicings, I don't just use it in isolation.

    It doesn't cover everything, you will need to tweak the chords sometimes. E.g. quartal chords are very useful and sound cool, but they are not in the BH system. But you only have to change one note usually to get them.

    I see it as another tool in the toolbox, as it were. It's not the magical secret of the musical universe or anything like that. I guess what I'm saying is for me, the appeal is its simplicity and relative ease of application, above all.
    Last edited by grahambop; 04-12-2017 at 06:37 PM.

  33. #32

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    Another thing I will add, is that it is not easy at first to get your head round it. Because you've got to start seeing those major and minor 6th chords as 'multiple applications', as it were. So the same shapes can function as major, as minor, as dom7, as dom7 altered, as min7b5, depending on the context (see post 28 again!). When the underlying chord changes, you probably want to move to the 'nearest' 6th voicing on the neck, for the next chord, to create a smooth flow, voice-leading etc. At first this is not easy, you have to stop and look it up in the book perhaps.

    I found I couldn't get used to this until I painstakingly applied it to a specific tune by going through the book and writing down all the chord moves, harmonising the tune, etc. That's why I did that 'My Romance' exercise, it took me ages! But after that, it all started to become more internalised and now I don't have to think about it so much.

    So some up-front hard work on one tune may be needed to get going. Just playing through those chord scales didn't achieve that for me (as appealing as they may sound on their own).

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    So some up-front hard work on one tune may be needed to get going. Just playing through those chord scales didn't achieve that for me (as appealing as they may sound on their own).
    That is a great suggestion. Perhaps rather than look at Alan's arrangement at the end of the book we can, as a group, work out an arrangement for a different tune. Of course you are right that just playing the chord scales isn't the sum of the ideas presented. I can't imagine anyone thinks that. Just like in the study group for the Herb Ellis shape system I don't think anyone thinks all you need is to learn the first "shape" for just the major scale and you've got it (although also an appealing sound).

  35. #34

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    Plugging along, here is the Harmonized Min6dim scale. I found this a lot less satisfying to play than the Harmonized Maj6dim scale. I always sounds unsettled and incomplete. Minor or not, there are just no sweet tones in this scale. Perhaps someone would like to demonstrate playing with these in a way that is pleasing or satisfying. It is not terrible or jarring, just too unsettled to live with for very long.



    EDIT: I re-uploaded to YouTube. I don't know why there was this odd audio distortion the first time. Seems fixed now. Also I say "Drop 4" a lot when I obviously mean "Drop 2". Sorry.
    Last edited by rlrhett; 04-13-2017 at 03:34 PM.

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Plugging along, here is the Harmonized Min6dim scale. I found this a lot less satisfying to play than the Harmonized Maj6dim scale. I always sounds unsettled and incomplete. Minor or not, there are just no sweet tones in this scale. Perhaps someone would like to demonstrate playing with these in a way that is pleasing or satisfying. It is not terrible or jarring, just too unsettled to live with for very long.

    I wouldn't use this so extensively on a minor chord unless I really want a min6 sound continuously. For me it's more useful when playing on a dominant chord. E.g. if the chord is F7, play the Cmin6/dim scale over it and the min6 chords become F7 9 chords. (I think this is one of the examples of using '6th on the 5th' if I recall correctly, haven't got the book to hand).
    Last edited by grahambop; 04-13-2017 at 04:09 AM.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    To me, the most obvious basic application is on static chords lasting 2 measures, perhaps simply moving up or down the neck and alternating between the maj6 (or min6) chords and the diminished chords. Sometimes I will enclose the I (or i) chord with surrounding diminished chords or diminished chords that borrow the alto voice from the next highest chord.

    I am curious to ask, though, how you guys might be using the BH approach when a chord lasts just one measure, or even less than one measure. What sort of comping rhythms are you playing over these faster moving changes?

    I will sometimes precede the chord of the moment with a related diminished chord (with or without borrowing). For example, if there's one measure of C maj I will play a B diminished on the 4 or 4+ of the measure before.

    The thing is, BH talks about freeing oneself from ii-V, so I'm wondering if anyone has some examples of moving "through" changes without simply substituting the BH chords for what the Real Book might notate as a ii-V. Without extensive use of borrowing notes, it seems that the basic approach is really alternating between V and I, as NSJ stated earlier in the thread.
    A chord lasting one measure still has 4 beats to play with, so at a medium tempo you can still fit (say) 3 chords over it and not sound 'cluttered'. Or 4 if you want that 4-to-the-bar sound.

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Plugging along, here is the Harmonized Min6dim scale. I found this a lot less satisfying to play than the Harmonized Maj6dim scale. I always sounds unsettled and incomplete. Minor or not, there are just no sweet tones in this scale. Perhaps someone would like to demonstrate playing with these in a way that is pleasing or satisfying. It is not terrible or jarring, just too unsettled to live with for very long.
    I was thinking that a way to practice the minor6 over dominant chords as graham says might be over a blues progression. I tried that this morning before work(excuse the tie) on the first 8 bars of a basic blues in F - so F7(4 bars) Bb7 (2 bars) F7(2bars) becomes Cm6/dim - Fm6/dim - Cm6/dim. I did a video (below) although I don't know if I copied it correctly to the site.

    Once I'm more comfortable with this I'll start adding more to the changes and try to get it to swing a little more but at least it seems like a bit more musical a way to get the ideas under my fingers.



    https://cvws.icloud-content.com/B/Ac...dxAdfM9U&teh=2
    Still working on it.

  39. #38

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    Yes that's the best way to learn it, apply it to an actual tune or progression, just work on the first 4 or 8 bars to start with.

  40. #39

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    The quickest way to use m6 on a dominant is to think of a m6 a P5 up.

    G7? Dm6.
    C7? Gm6
    F7? Cm6
    Bb7? Fm6
    Eb7? Bbm6
    etc.

    But then what if we do this? Dm7--> Dm6. This is a simple shorthand ii-V to C without the V.
    Navdeep Singh.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    The quickest way to use m6 on a dominant is to think of a m6 a P5 up.

    G7? Dm6.
    C7? Gm6
    F7? Cm6
    Bb7? Fm6
    Eb7? Bbm6
    etc.

    But then what if we do this? Dm7--> Dm6. This is a simple shorthand ii-V to C without the V.
    That looks like a good way to think about it as a shortcut but I think that the Dm6 IS the V - ie it is the G7 (G9) without the root. Also, BH would say to play F6/dim over the Dm7, I guess is the same thing if you just use all the inversions of Dm7 along with an E dim.

    I don't know but reading ahead, BH talks about playing the 5th of the 6 - which I take to mean that over the Dm7 you can use the C6/dim chords as well as the F6. I don't know whether that is as easily accessed by just thinking of the Dm7 but it seems pretty easy to do using the F6 idea.

    Maybe someone with a better handle on this can chime in?
    Still working on it.

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post
    That looks like a good way to think about it as a shortcut but I think that the Dm6 IS the V - ie it is the G7 (G9) without the root. Also, BH would say to play F6/dim over the Dm7, I guess is the same thing if you just use all the inversions of Dm7 along with an E dim.

    I don't know but reading ahead, BH talks about playing the 5th of the 6 - which I take to mean that over the Dm7 you can use the C6/dim chords as well as the F6. I don't know whether that is as easily accessed by just thinking of the Dm7 but it seems pretty easy to do using the F6 idea.

    Maybe someone with a better handle on this can chime in?
    I've been book free for a while now (the Kingstone and Ben Hurr stuff is excellent, I learned a lot from it). But I seem to remember that (only because I practiced it a million times) one should always learn the iv6/IV6 and v6/V6 associated with each I6/i6.

    the F6 you speak of as synonymous with Dm7 is the IV6 of C6.

    See the simple math here?

    I6=vim7
    V6 = iiim7
    IV6=iim7
    bIII6=i7
    ii6=vi7b5


    Basically, I follow one simple rule: if I can recall something, that just means I've practiced it a million times. (I'm slow and require lots of repetition).
    Navdeep Singh.

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    But then what if we do this? Dm7--> Dm6. This is a simple shorthand ii-V to C without the V.
    Starting with 2nd inversion C6 on the middle string set, borrow the alto voice from the subsequent diminished chord and you get the sounds of a rootless D11. Lots of ways to grab the V from here on your way to resolving to C. Borrowing really brings out some nice sounds and some subs that are not always immediately apparent.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    I've been book free for a while now (the Kingstone and Ben Hurr stuff is excellent, I learned a lot from it). But I seem to remember that (only because I practiced it a million times) one should always learn the iv6/IV6 and v6/V6 associated with each I6/i6.

    the F6 you speak of as synonymous with Dm7 is the IV6 of C6.

    See the simple math here?

    I6=vim7
    V6 = iiim7
    IV6=iim7
    bIII6=i7
    ii6=vi7b5


    Basically, I follow one simple rule: if I can recall something, that just means I've practiced it a million times. (I'm slow and require lots of repetition).
    I think I see what you are getting at. I understand the relationships that you are pointing out(I think the last one is a typo and should be vii7b5 rather than vi7b5) and I had not thought of them like that. That helps.

    If I can ask you, since you have been through the BH stuff already, do you see a significant benefit in using the harmonised dim6 scales? I've just started looking at this and am having some trouble seeing a benefit of playing F6 inversions and Gdims rather than just using Dm7 inversions with Edims. Is there a payoff once I go through it?
    Still working on it.

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post
    I was thinking that a way to practice the minor6 over dominant chords as graham says might be over a blues progression. I tried that this morning before work(excuse the tie) on the first 8 bars of a basic blues in F - so F7(4 bars) Bb7 (2 bars) F7(2bars) becomes Cm6/dim - Fm6/dim - Cm6/dim. I did a video (below) although I don't know if I copied it correctly to the site.

    Once I'm more comfortable with this I'll start adding more to the changes and try to get it to swing a little more but at least it seems like a bit more musical a way to get the ideas under my fingers.



    https://cvws.icloud-content.com/B/Ac...dxAdfM9U&teh=2
    I couldn't get your video to play (on an iPhone no less! You would think at least an apple product would play well with iCloud.) Any chance you could put it up on YouTube? That seems to work reliably well.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post
    I think I see what you are getting at. I understand the relationships that you are pointing out(I think the last one is a typo and should be vii7b5 rather than vi7b5) and I had not thought of them like that. That helps.

    If I can ask you, since you have been through the BH stuff already, do you see a significant benefit in using the harmonised dim6 scales? I've just started looking at this and am having some trouble seeing a benefit of playing F6 inversions and Gdims rather than just using Dm7 inversions with Edims. Is there a payoff once I go through it?
    I can't say that I studied it exhaustively. the *borrowing* aspects, I understand but I didn't work with it.

    What I decided in goring through all the material (Kingstone-Ben Hurr-Pasquale--haven't actually gotten to Barry, actually ) was to INTENSELY practice the shit out of a few ESSENTIAL elements that I can incorporate/internalize into my playing without thinking. "Without thinking" = a lot of work and repetition.

    What I practiced a TON was to get the harmonized M/m6 dim chord scales on various string sets via the open voicings (drop 2: did not practice the bottom four string set, honestly, do not like that sound as much), spread voicngs (drop 3) and split voicings (drop 2 and 4).

    Not in the abstract, but so I can harmonize songs and melodies as needed. That's the only goal. From an overall perspective of music that sees tonal music as something very elemental, from the unresolved/tension to the resolution (V to I). I mean, that's what the diminished chords are actually, part of the dominant group of families, right?

    The IV6=iim7 equation is not esoteric at all; both groups form the sub-dominant function in tonal music (TONIC being I, iii, and vi; dominant being V and vii).

    So, I just made a basic decision to, instead of covering everything very thinly and consequently not using any of it on regular basis, I focused on the most fundamental thing: the harmonized chord scales as an example of the V-I cadence in tonal music, the most fundamental thing in tonal music. (a few years ago, I got to drive around the distinguished classical guitarist, Oscar Ghiglia, and took him to have dinner with my teacher--they've known each other for 50 years).

    I was lucky enough to stay and have dinner with them, and decided I would try to be sponge and soak up something really important. Oscar talked extensively about the dominant to the tonic, how it is the alpha and omega of tonal music.

    I never forgot that essential point.

    Sometimes, this shit can come at you really fast and get really thick. I decided I can't learn it all, because I can't digest it all. I can only intake a few important things and have to practice them a million times.

    So that's what I did with this stuff.

    The borrowing stuff I didn't practice enough. So, consequently, it shows up nowhere in my playing.
    Navdeep Singh.

  47. #46

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    Thanks NSJ. That all makes good sense. (I'm not a fan of the bottom 4 string set either)

    It's good to have an understanding as to what it is you want to get out of a method before spending time working on it and I agree that the primary goal should be its usefulness in actually playing tunes. It does seem that some of the information in AK's fine book, while very interesting, may not be all that useful in actually playing. I'm thinking of the "sisters and brothers" thing although that may be because I don't yet really have a good understanding of what he's actually getting at.

    Cheers.
    Still working on it.

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post
    I think I see what you are getting at. I understand the relationships that you are pointing out(I think the last one is a typo and should be vii7b5 rather than vi7b5) and I had not thought of them like that. That helps.

    If I can ask you, since you have been through the BH stuff already, do you see a significant benefit in using the harmonised dim6 scales? I've just started looking at this and am having some trouble seeing a benefit of playing F6 inversions and Gdims rather than just using Dm7 inversions with Edims. Is there a payoff once I go through it?
    Isn't F6 the same as Dm7 anyway? To me that's one of the things I like about it. You only need to learn the 6ths and they cover lots of other chords as well (as per post 28).

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    I've been book free for a while now (the Kingstone and Ben Hurr stuff is excellent, I learned a lot from it). But I seem to remember that (only because I practiced it a million times) one should always learn the iv6/IV6 and v6/V6 associated with each I6/i6.

    the F6 you speak of as synonymous with Dm7 is the IV6 of C6.

    See the simple math here?

    I6=vim7
    V6 = iiim7
    IV6=iim7
    bIII6=i7
    ii6=vi7b5


    Basically, I follow one simple rule: if I can recall something, that just means I've practiced it a million times. (I'm slow and require lots of repetition).
    Confused about using bIII6 as a substitution: bIII6 in C = Eb6 = cm7 or Im7?

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post
    Thanks NSJ. That all makes good sense. (I'm not a fan of the bottom 4 string set either)
    I'm not sure it's wise to limit the range of the 'scale of chords' that BH talks about.

    I'm thinking of Alan Kingstone's 'movers and hitters', too - but it's most clearly evident in the piano-like comping of Pasquale Grasso.

    I'm not a fan, either - but it needn't sound muddy (especially if you get the gauge right on those lower strings).

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    Ben Hurr
    Another typo: (Roni) Ben-Hur