The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Was worth the wait. Thanks for that.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I think any way of looking at it that helps keep it in mind is valid. That is probably why Alan Kingston takes different approaches within the book.

    One thing I would add comes from the little BH I've read and seen on online. It is my impression that he was very against thinking of things as "ii-V" or "I-V-I" or "I-iv-ii-V". He encouraged thinking in terms of movement and moving voices. Given that, distilling his system down to new substitutions or fingerings for a "ii" or a "V" or substitutions for a Maj7 or Dom7 in a void or without reference to the movement seems contrary to the spirit of BH's teachings. Although that is probably very useful and I certainly appreciate the effort grahambop and other have made in reaching this synthesis.

    I admit that is why I resist in part thinking of things as substitutions for the "ii" chord, and then a different substitution for the "V" chord. Rather, I found appealing to think of it as movement of the 5th down half a step (or of the 5th and the 3rd down half a step in the first example) but keeping the IV6 in mind. Movement leading home, not three different substitutions for the V7 chord. Of course, that is also not necessarily simpler. The vi-6 (Gb-6 in the book example) requires movement in three voices: the 5th and the 3rd move down just like in the IVdim but this time the 6th moves up.

    Still, I am just beginning to try to get this under my fingers and into my mind. I am definitely no BH expert, and although I've been playing classical, folk and rock guitar for 30 years I am very new to jazz. I'll probably regret not simply adopting the prevailing thought that all this really is is new fingerings for ii chords and V chords.
    AFAIK it sounds to me like you have an excellent grasp on the ethos of Barry's teaching here.

    It's really not about naming vertical chords. In fact if you are using the scale fluently you may not have names for the chords you are playing, and if someone presses you to name them it might take a couple of seconds to work it out!

    That's what I'm aiming towards in my harmonic playing with or without Barry's system - just a fluent river of harmonic movement.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    A few thoughts and twiddles
    Great stuff. Thanks for that. I agree that borrowing is the key to opening up power of BH's approach. Your run through the changes in the middle of the video illustrates this do nicely.
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 04-20-2017 at 04:28 PM.

  5. #79

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    So the next section of AK's book is the 6th on the 5th. He describes how playing a 6th chord a 5th above another 6th chord results in a Maj9 chord of the latter chord. so playing a C6 over an F6 is effectively an FM9 chord. Nice. And moving from the C6 to the F6 sounds great. He brings in the "borrowing" idea in that the C6 is actually F6 with two notes borrowed from the Gdim which is the dim used in the F6/dim scale. My impression is that AK talks about the 6th on the 5th in part because it is an easier way to find those two dim notes that you need than to try and figure it out by using the dim scale. Either way it sounds great and shows how borrowing dim notes can create some cool sounds.

    It also makes sense in the context of traditional chords in that C6 is the same as Am7 which is the iii7 of FM - a common sub. And Am7 is also the vi7 of CM - another common sub. So it's easy to see why this works so well.

    He then moves the two borrowed notes down a semitone which results in a Cdim chord and then down another semitone to resolve to the F6. Very nice. Sounds great.

    He goes on to say that you can do the same thing thinking about the F6 as a Dm7 - so a IV6 in C. Same move - different context. Again - so cool. Of some interest, in the examples he gives, he refers to the F6 as the I even though it is actually the IV6/ii7 but the names are probably not important, just the movement.

    My question for the group is - where does that Cdim chord fit in terms of the theory? It is not part of either the C6/dim scale or the F6/dim scale. It results in a V6 - Vdim - I6 movement. Or iii7(I) - Vdim - I in the first context and what? a I6 - bVIIdim - IV6/ii7 in the second? But wherefore the Cdim? Is it simply a matter of keeping the notes moving toward "home"? Or is there something else going on?
    Last edited by ColinO; 04-21-2017 at 08:12 AM.

  6. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO
    My question for the group is - where does that Cdim chord fit in terms of the theory? It is not part of either the C6/dim scale or the F6/dim scale. It results in a V6 - Vdim - I6 movement. Or iii7(I) - Vdim - I in the first context and what? a I6 - bVIIdim - IV6/ii7 in the second? But wherefore the Cdim? Is it simply a matter of keeping the notes moving toward "home"? Or is there something else going on?
    I think my brain just exploded! Thank you ColinO. I hadn't noticed that. It's going to take some "twiddling" to solidify my thoughts, but I think that observation just unlocked the book for me. The upshot is that each section of the book seems to teach us movement using one of each of the three dim scales. Built on the I, IV, and V. See page 28. Each dim scale has its own movement and sound, and learning to use all three is the key for fluid and creative harmonic movement.

    Give mea couple of days and I'll throw up a video of what I think you just unlocked for me. Locking the door and kicking the family out for a little while...
    Last edited by rlrhett; 04-21-2017 at 09:22 PM.

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    I think my brain just exploded! Thank you ColinO. I hadn't noticed that. It's going to take some "twiddling" to solidify my thoughts, but I think that observation just unlocked the book for me. The upshot is that each section of the book seems to teach us movement using one of each of the three dim scales. Built on the I, IV, and V. See page 28. Each dim scale has its own movement and sound, and learning to use all three is the key for fluid and creative harmonic movement.

    Give me a couple of days and I'll throw up a video of what I think you just unlocked for me. Locking the door and kicking the family out for a little while...
    Wow. I am seeing what you are saying. Just looking at p 28. And also 27. There is a ton of stuff in there that is going to take me a while to figure out. You are right though. Those sections are really important to understand. Just fiddling around a bit with it leads to a bunch of interesting connections - not only the one that I was asking about (which by the way depends on using the iiim7 sub for I so was cheating a bit in my book). Rather than seeing the bIII6dim going to iii/I, it seems like it's a lot easier when playing just to think Idim->I6 as he suggests.

    I also see now where the V6 was coming from. It's really the same as treating the iiim7 as a sub for I6. For example, In C - the iiim7 is Em7 - he says for all m7s play a 6th a minor third above which would be G6. Nice.

  8. #82

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    Let's see:

    C E G A
    C Eb F# A

    So, this belongs to the Gmaj6-dim

    OK what about the F6 then? Do we just patch in another scale (i.e. it moves to F or C?)

    F A C D

    And the back to Gmaj6-dim?
    C Eb F# A
    C E G A

    Always found that bit a bit confusing myself. Should probably get the book.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Let's see:

    C E G A
    C Eb F# A

    So, this belongs to the Gmaj6-dim

    OK what about the F6 then? Do we just patch in another scale (i.e. it moves to F or C?)

    F A C D

    And the back to Gmaj6-dim?
    C Eb F# A
    C E G A

    Always found that bit a bit confusing myself. Should probably get the book.
    Just starting to learn this stuff. But if Am7 is a sub for F6 then play C6 for Am7 and you are back to G6. I honestly have no idea.

    Edit: By the way, the book says bIIIdim moves to both iii(I) or ii(IV6). I'm not really clear why it "moves" there but assumed it had to do with having to move two notes a semitone. Sounds good though.
    Last edited by ColinO; 04-22-2017 at 05:04 PM.

  10. #84

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    But if that's right, then any dim chord can resolve to any major 6 chord:

    eg F6

    C#dim=Edim which is the F6/dim scale
    Cdim is the dim related to G6/dim and G6 functions as C6/Am7 the iiim7 of F
    Bdim is the dim related to C6/dim which is Am7, the iiim7 of F

    Probably way over-thinking. Missing the forest for the trees and all that.

  11. #85

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    To me Pages 26-28 are basically saying here's 3 more cool ways to move with a dim chord which is not in the 6/dim scales already discussed. I.e. using dim chord on the b2, the b3 and the #4, followed by a 6 chord or a min7 as detailed (and min7 is of course a 6 chord by another name).

    b3 dim is the same as 1 dim so you can do simple things on one chord like C6 Cdim C6 without hardly moving your fingers. (I used this at the end of that 'What's this thing called love' example I did).

    I'm not too worried about the theory behind it, they are cool sounds so I get them under my fingers and use them. I did read the whole explanation, but I will probably forget a lot of it!

    To me these particular moves have a kind of Basie or Ellington flavour to them, which is nice.
    Last edited by grahambop; 04-23-2017 at 12:29 PM.

  12. #86

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    I dim is just a shorthand for me as movement to the IV chord

  13. #87
    I have a different take that I'm still trying to work out. But here goes a little more:

    I don't think the idea is that the dim scales are interchangeable. At the risk of channeling Pat Martino (minus the weird pentagrams and spiritual musings), the dim scales give us the key to the basic three family structure of western harmony. Thank you CollingO for helping me make the connection between BH and PM.

    Here is my simplified take:

    There are three dim scales that don't overlap. The 12 tones of western music can be divided into these three families. Each of these families have a different harmonic function. I don't think we all universally agree on what that function is, but I think we all hear the three families as being different and related.

    For example, if you start with any one of those 12 tones as your "tone center" or "key" and apply the major scale you have three major chords: I, IV, V. They each function differently harmonically. This has been described in terms of tension, movement away from rest, anticipation, home, etc.

    Turns out that each of those major chords is related to one of the three dim scales. They are each in a different "family".

    The chords built on those dim scales can keep you in the "family". You stay on I (and and anything that has the same harmonic function) by playing the harmonized Maj6dim scale. You stay on the IV by playing the harmonized Maj6dim scale built on the IV. Same for the V.

    You transition from one family to the other through the voice leading magic of the dim chords (or the min6 chords, which in my mind seem to function as ambiguous half way points between a Maj6 and a dim chord that create more "out" sounds). A half step movement in two voices (one or three for the cool min6 variants) puts you smoothly into the next family.

    I've related the three families to the I, IV, and V chords because I have a rock/folk/blues background. I know that is not how PM looks at it. I understand his triangles and three parental chords, but the rest of his world of minor keys and substitutions is beyond me at the moment.

    Still, I think the key to this book is to recognize that it is all about harmonizing thinking about these three families. Within the families are your "Brothers and Sisters", transitioning from one family to another is "Away and Home" in Kingstone's language, and chapter 2 of this book is all about using the dim chords to transition between the families with pleasant and smooth voice leading.

    I'll post a video tonight when I get the chance.

  14. #88
    Here is the promised video. A little tedious (some of you may say a LOT! ) But I think it helps explain my evolving thinking on this material. Hope you find it useful...


  15. #89

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    rlrhett. Thanks for the vid. It was very interesting. I'm leaning toward grahambop's view that the AK book is showing a bunch of cool ways to move and that the book presents an easy way to get around because you are just using 6 and min6 chords as a reference. So with 6 and min6 as a reference, and borrowing from the related dim for each, you get a bunchof other harmonic possibilities without having to think too much about the chords and instead looking at the melody and your ear as a guide.

    Satin Doll makes an interesting example. So Dm7 G7 / Dm7 G7 / Em7 A7 / Em7 A7 / Am7 becomes F6 Dm6 / F6 Dm6 / G6 Em6 / G6 Em6 / C6. Edim is the dim associated with F6 and Dm6. F#dim is the dim associated with G6 and Em6. And Fdim is associated with C6. That works with your view of things. But what do we do about the 5th on the 6th idea? G6 supposedly functions as C6 and they each have different associated dim chords. AK says G6(V6 on C6) and C6 are "home" in his subsequent examples but each belong to different dim scales.

    But what's also kind of cool about Satin Doll is in the melody. A - G - A -G - A / A - G -A / B - A - B -A - B /- B - A - B in the first four bars. In the first half-bar the A is in F6 and the G is borrowed from Edim. In the second half of the first bar the A is in the Dm6 and the G is borrowed from the Edim. Same in second bar. In the first half of the 3d bar the B is in G6 and the A is borrowed from F#dim. In the second half of the 3d bar, the B is in Em6 and the A is borrowed from F#dim. Same for the 4th bar. And so on.

    I think the home and away idea is also good for moving on static chords. So a bar or two of Am7 can be C6(home)-Cdim(away)-F6(away)-Fdim(away on the way home) -C6(home). Note that the Fdim is enharmonic of Bdim which is the related dim of C6.

    I'm really looking forward to the borrowing part.

    Last edited by ColinO; 04-24-2017 at 08:29 AM.

  16. #90

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    I tried Satin doll and I think you really want to move that F maj 6th to D min 6 in the second bar (it's one note difference)

    I would use a Fo7 for the Abm7 Db7 bit - that b7 b6 5 (Bb Ab G) is a really common melodic device - it's good to have a harmonisation for that on all string groups.

  17. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I tried Satin doll and I think you really want to move that F maj 6th to D min 6 in the second bar (it's one note difference)
    Absolutely. I was trying to demonstrate the concept using nothing but Maj6 and dim chords, but for a actual performance I think you could add all kinds of additional movement and color.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I would use a Fo7 for the Abm7 Db7 bit - that b7 b6 5 (Bb Ab G) is a really common melodic device - it's good to have a harmonisation for that on all string groups.
    I'm not sure where you mean. I admit I wasn't naming the chords in my head. So much so I realize now I had transposed it up a step from the usual key. But I still don't find where I played Abm7 to Db7 (or Bbm7 to Eb7 in my cocked up playing).



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  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Absolutely. I was trying to demonstrate the concept using nothing but Maj6 and dim chords, but for a actual performance I think you could add all kinds of additional movement and color.



    I'm not sure where you mean. I admit I wasn't naming the chords in my head. So much so I realize now I had transposed it up a step from the usual key. But I still don't find where I played Abm7 to Db7 (or Bbm7 to Eb7 in my cocked up playing).



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    The last phrase 'out catting that Satin doll'

  19. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The last phrase 'out catting that Satin doll'
    Shoot! You weren't supposed to notice I was just stumbling over that last part. Like humming over the part you forgot the lyrics and hoping no one notices. Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar


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  20. #94

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    Incidentally when you play G6 in the context of C ('sixth on the fifth') what you actually get is a rootless Cmaj9. Must admit I haven't tried this one so much, but it would be interesting to use it, as it will have some major and dim chords on different intervals than the C6/dim scale does.

  21. #95

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    Hi

    I am new to the forum.

    Can anyone direct me to where I can download the mp3 tracks for this please.

    Cheers

  22. #96

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    If it helps understanding about the genealogy... here is part of what he said during a workshop in 2003...

    Our music is perfect. It follows a pattern, it starts off very simply, it starts off with the chromatic. The chromatic is God creating the earth, creating the world. God created the world and our world is the chromatic scale, and that’s 12, which is like the twelve disciples, 1 and 2 is 3 and that equals the trinity, and then after God created the world, do you know what happened?

    He looked around and he said - oh! this is beautiful, but I’m still lonely - so you know what he made next, woman and man. He made man and woman. And what is man and woman then. Man and woman are the 2 whole tone scales. 2 whole tone scales come first. After the chromatic, come 2 whole tone scales. After the 2 whole tone scales, you know what happened to man and woman - they had babies - and the first thing they have is 3 diminishes.

    They had 3 diminishes - and the DNA is perfect. The DNA is perfection. Because with each diminished, 2 notes belong to one whole tone scale and 2 notes belong to the other. That is perfect DNA. So, now here we have the beginning of the music.

    The music is 2 going into 12, six times, 2 sixes is two whole tone scales, the two whole tone scales have babies, 3 goes into 12, four times, so you have 3 fours - that’s 2 diminishes, now - we make the world.

    See after those babies start crawling around, and messing around, suddenly we get more babies - and more babies - and more babies. Now from these diminishes, comes the world. The diminishes start branching out. And when the diminishes start branching out, you start getting dominants - see for one thing with the whole tone you’ve got major thirds, with the diminished you’ve got minor thirds, and then you start putting that stuff together. And then you start thinking - how am I going to get everything?

    So you take a diminished and you say, how can we get everything - so you say, maybe I’ll lower a tone. So you lower a tone first and you find out - oh, dominants, you find 4 dominants.

    And then after you find those 4 dominants, you say - ah ha- their tonics form a diminished and that’s how you get a diminished scale. A diminished scale isn’t half step - whole step. Don’t believe that nonsense, man is better than that. Man does not name things by saying oh that’s a half step, a whole step or it’s the whole step, half step - (bull) - it's 2 diminishes put together. The diminished, the 4 dominants that come from it, you put it together, their tonics form a diminished, you put it together, you’ve got a diminished scale. So everything starts coming.

    If you raise a tone a half step, ah - minor sixes. Now you’ve got minor sixes, you’ve got dominants, then you say - oh, I wonder what would happen if I take 2 tones and lower them. I’ll try 2 consecutive tones. So you take 2 consecutive tones and suddenly you get a major sixth. And the odd thing about it is when you take those diminishes and you raise those 2 consecutive tones - you’ve got another sixth, a major sixth - so you’ve got 2 major sixes.

    Our first 2 movement would be when you raised that tone and got the minor sixth and then you lowered that tone and got that dominant, your first move should be minor sixth to diminished to dominant. Now you see that is the first movement. That is the start of music. Our first move almost - that’s it.

    See, when we mess with the major sixes, we get another kind of move. See when you move the 2 consecutive tones up, now raise 2 consecutive tones (F# and A), now our next progression is going to be, hit that chord (C - Eb - G - Bb), then move them (G & Bb) back down (to form the diminished) and then move them down one (C - Eb - F - Ab). That’s our next move. See everything comes from this stuff.

    There’s 1 strange chord that comes in. When I say move consecutive - if he moved non-consecutive tones, he’ll end up with a different chord. Play that diminished again - take the C and the F# - hit that chord - you end up with a seventh with a flat five, 2 - because every seventh with a flat five is 2 dominants. See most people don’t even know that. That’s why the seventh with a flat five, that scale you always want to learn - because… nothing to it. You learn 6 and you know all 12. It’s like that. But see all of the music comes from that kind of stuff. I’ve got it where - see I think you learn these kind of scales for chording. So you learn how to chord.
    Barry Harris

  23. #97

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    I hope this thread will live on as I believe in can be the source of extremely good harmonic theory and advanced guitar playing.

    I'm not really good with forums but I'm going to try harder as I'm rather isolated here in retirement and always enjoy a viewpoint different from my own.

    To the point...I've noticed that the TRITONE chord with a b5 is the original dominant with a b5. It can make handling all string series a little easier. This goes to the BH statement above.

    I should do an introduction in the appropriate thread area...I think I will.


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  24. #98
    Thank you for that, pauln. Kingstone quotes similar stuff at the end of Chapter One, but quite frankly it is not very clear what he means by any of that. It feels a little like abstract musings, where is the musical application?

    Your quote is more complete and I begin to get what Barry Harris might have meant. One thing I am beginning to wonder about is the use of the min6dim scale. I am working through Section 2.6 called "Movement". This is a massive section, and its taking time to get to the point where I digest it enough to post my thoughts and a video. However, there is no use of the min6dim scale or min6 chords. The thing is that since maj6 chords are ambiguously minor, it feels like you would never use the min6dim scale. Hoping the answer is coming up later.

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Thank you for that, pauln. Kingstone quotes similar stuff at the end of Chapter One, but quite frankly it is not very clear what he means by any of that. It feels a little like abstract musings, where is the musical application?

    Your quote is more complete and I begin to get what Barry Harris might have meant. One thing I am beginning to wonder about is the use of the min6dim scale. I am working through Section 2.6 called "Movement". This is a massive section, and its taking time to get to the point where I digest it enough to post my thoughts and a video. However, there is no use of the min6dim scale or min6 chords. The thing is that since maj6 chords are ambiguously minor, it feels like you would never use the min6dim scale. Hoping the answer is coming up later.
    From memory, I don't think they are used in the Movement section. They are used in the Playing on Dominants section though.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    From memory, I don't think they are used in the Movement section. They are used in the Playing on Dominants section though.
    Had a quick look - in fact there is some use of the min6 on page 39 of the Movements section.