Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar

[wzpgsr]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Once I get something a bit more solid together I'll make a video.

I seem to find better sounds by following the key center approach with borrowing a bit of borrowing.

I also tried comping four to the bar using the more "modal" approach where G-7b5 uses the Bb-6 scale and C7b9 uses Db-6, but had some trouble making this sound right. I played an inversion on beat 1, diminished on beat 2, inversion on beat 3, then on beat 4, a diminished from the next measure's chord scale.

Will keep at it, because theoretically, at least, this should work. I also I think I need to revisit the rhythmic suggestions made by BH and AK.

[rlrhett]

So moving on, I've done the sections on "Organic Diminished" and "Brothers and Sisters". I am not going to link the video here, as it really is just me scratching my head on this. There is a video on the playlist I created for this at:

Kingstone/Harris - YouTube

But the upshot is that Kingstone first describes that there is a dominant chord built by lowering just one note of a diminished chord. Whatever note you lower becomes the root of the dominant. That isn't terribly new or innovative, but there you are. Then he points out that you can substitute these four dominants for each other. Again, pretty standard stuff. They move up the minor thirds just like the diminished chords.

The next section is harder to understand the musical application. He notes that the dominant chords themselves are related to a constellation of chords. The dominant leads to a major7. The major7 has a related min7. The min7 has its own dominant. The dominants all have tritone substitutions.

I suppose it is interesting that there are so many overlaps that we really end up having just four of each quality of chords: maj7-min7-dom. But I don't get how that is useful to know. Is he suggesting that four maj7 can substitute for each other like the dom7? How do you use this knowledge?

Finally, the section goes into a bit of curious math. Again, the musical application is not clear. The curious thing about any base 12 system, whether it is time measurements or a dozen eggs, is that it is divisible by 1,2,3 or 4. Divide the scale up in 4ths and you get a stacking of 4 minor thirds that fit perfectly. Divide by 3 and you have a stacking of major 3rds. Etc. Cool from that "have you ever looked at clouds, I mean REALLY looked at clouds..." kind of perspective. Just don't know what I would do with that.

[rlrhett]

Next is a really cool little bit of application called "Playing with Dominants".

We begin by noticing that the ii7 is enharmonic to the IV6. So he suggest thinking of it from that perspective. What is cool about that is the voice leading possibilities. His first movement is to take that IV6 and turn it into an IVdim. Two notes move a half step. Remembering back from the harmonized scales, the 4th scale note harmonized as a dim chord. So we are in the scale and can go to any pleasing inversion of the I6 chord. Really sweet sounding in almost any inversion or combinations of IV6->IVdim->I6. So this gives you a nice voice-leading progression to play over a ii-V-I.

Next, he shows how if you take the 5th of a IV6 and drop it a half note it is the same as going from a ii7 to a ii6. This is even more subtle movement and although bigger movement to the I. Very subtle and nice.

Finally, we have the movement from IV6->VImin6>I. The leap to the VImin6 is bigger, and sound pretty out, but it shares a lot of notes with the I6. So it too has good voice leading and a satisfying resolution.

So there you go. Three new ways to think of a ii-V-I. This stuff is great!

[SeanZ]

What I find interesting/useful is that bIIMaj7, bIIIMaj7, IVMaj7 and bVIIMaj can all be substituted for a dom 7 chord. So for G7 you could use AbMaj7, BbMaj7, CMaj7, or FMaj7. Actually depending on what you 'ear' is comfortable with, there are others but those are the 4 that I like.

Then keeping in mind that the 4 related dominants can be substituted for each other, those same 4 Maj7th chords can also be used in place of Bb7, Db7, and E7. Suggest trying them against all 4 chords in that dominant family (G7, Bb7, Db7, E7) and see if you like the sound.

[ColinO]

Next is a really cool little bit of application called "Playing with Dominants".

We begin by noticing that the ii7 is enharmonic to the IV6. So he suggest thinking of it from that perspective. What is cool about that is the voice leading possibilities. His first movement is to take that IV6 and turn it into an IVdim. Two notes move a half step. Remembering back from the harmonized scales, the 4th scale note harmonized as a dim chord. So we are in the scale and can go to any pleasing inversion of the I6 chord. Really sweet sounding in almost any inversion or combinations of IV6->IVdim->I6. So this gives you a nice voice-leading progression to play over a ii-V-I.

Next, he shows how if you take the 5th of a IV6 and drop it a half note it is the same as going from a ii7 to a ii6. This is even more subtle movement and although bigger movement to the I. Very subtle and nice.

Finally, we have the movement from IV6->VImin6>I. The leap to the VImin6 is bigger, and sound pretty out, but it shares a lot of notes with the I6. So it too has good voice leading and a satisfying resolution.

So there you go. Three new ways to think of a ii-V-I. This stuff is great!

Great stuff. Keep these coming. I agree that including the I makes things a lot clearer. You are probably going to be moving more quickly through this than me as I have been working on getting the conversion to 6th chords solidified in my mind. Honestly I took AK's use of the Adim for F7 too lightly and you pointing out that it would make more sense to look at as IVdim instead really helps. Going back to the basic idea that the 6/dim chord scale ends up as a series of I-V-I chords then makes more sense. The IVdim is the same dim that is used in the I6/dim series so really brings it together.

I have been been trying to apply this the ATTYA and will try to post something when I get home from work.

Cheers.

[ColinO]

So I quickly did the first eight bars of ATTYA by first using the 6th chords in place of the Real Book chords. So instead of Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - AbM7 - DbM7 - G7 - CM7, I used Ab6 - Db6 - Bbm6 - Ab6 - Db6 - Dm6 - CM6. The voicings were chosen by keeping the melody as the top note. It's rough but sounds like this:

[ColinO]

Next I used the same voicings and added the diminished chord from the 6/dim scale for the following chord so as to create a V - I leading into each chord.

[ColinO]

Next I again used the same voicings but this time used the dim chord for the chord that I was on to see how that sounded. so it ends up as a I - V leading away from each chord.

Still pretty rough but I can see a lot of possibilities. As you can gather I am still trying to get the basics covered. There is a lot to assimilate just of to this point - ie playing around with dominants and I intend to work on that for a while before proceeding much further. I will certainly be following along with the thread and continuing to work through the book and posting occasionally.

Cheers.

[destinytot]

Really enjoying the insights, enthusiasm and experimentation!

[ColinO]

Next, he shows how if you take the 5th of a IV6 and drop it a half note it is the same as going from a ii7 to a ii6. This is even more subtle movement and although bigger movement to the I. Very subtle and nice.

Finally, we have the movement from IV6->VImin6>I. The leap to the VImin6 is bigger, and sound pretty out, but it shares a lot of notes with the I6. So it too has good voice leading and a satisfying resolution.

I hope you don't mind a probably dumb question - this is a study group after all. I think I am missing these two moves in the book. I see where he talks about the Adim so I get that.

But where is he talking about the 5th of a IV6 dropped a half note or the VImin6. I see where he talks about using the min6 a fifth from the dominant and a flat two of the dominant but I am not seeing the two you speak of. A page number would be great. Thanks.

By the way. I love the way you are describing this using the IV6 etc. It is a different way of describing it than I am seeing it described in the book or at least how I am interpreting it. It actually helps seeing you come at it from a different angle than I am looking at it. Maybe it's like binocular vision or something.

[rlrhett]

I hope you don't mind a probably dumb question - this is a study group after all. I think I am missing these two moves in the book. I see where he talks about the Adim so I get that.

But where is he talking about the 5th of a IV6 dropped a half note or the VImin6. I see where he talks about using the min6 a fifth from the dominant and a flat two of the dominant but I am not seeing the two you speak of. A page number would be great. Thanks.

By the way. I love the way you are describing this using the IV6 etc. It is a different way of describing it than I am seeing it described in the book or at least how I am interpreting it. It actually helps seeing you come at it from a different angle than I am looking at it. Maybe it's like binocular vision or something.

I'm sorry, I find Kingstone's descriptions often make things abstract by using enharmonic names that needn't be so complicated. We were talking about the IV6, why start naming things differently? Suddenly I have to think about the dominant and its fifth? The fifth of the dominant IS the IV6. He just established that relationship one paragraph above. That was the awesome moment of revelation that starts this section. Then it gets abandoned for new terminology the next paragraph!

So, ii-7 = 5th of the 5th = IV6. All ways of calling the same thing. Seems simpler to me to just keep calling it the IV6.

ii-7 = IV6
ii-6 = IV6^b5
ii-7->ii-6 = IV6->IV6^b5

Same thing. One note movement. For me it is easier to simply think of the IV6, and then dropping the fifth note a half step. In fact, much easier for me to think about that than trying to think of the 5th of a dominant I'm not even going to play.

BTW, the IV6^b5 is also the VII-7^b5 which is probably why it resolves so well to the I. But, again, I think the point of the method is to keep these things simple. Let's keep thinking in the terms of the IV6 and we're golden.

EDIT: To Kingstone's credit, I think he is trying to use as many different terms to describe the same thing as he can to show it from as many angles as possible. I just wish he had made that more explicit, or would reference back to what he just presented a paragraph or page earlier for more consistency. For example (Spoiler Alert!) in the next section he covers I-V6-Vdim-I. He calls it "6th on the 5th". A logical follow on to I-IV6-IVdim-I, even if he doesn't call this section the "6th on the 4th".

[grahambop]

Here are some ideas I put together for 'What Is This Thing Called Love', based on BH chords with a few tweaks. You'd probably want to syncopate the chords a bit more than this, i.e. play some on the half-beat to make it more rhythmically interesting.

[wzpgsr]

Next I again used the same voicings but this time used the dim chord for the chord that I was on to see how that sounded. so it ends up as a I - V leading away from each chord.

Still pretty rough but I can see a lot of possibilities. As you can gather I am still trying to get the basics covered. There is a lot to assimilate just of to this point - ie playing around with dominants and I intend to work on that for a while before proceeding much further. I will certainly be following along with the thread and continuing to work through the book and posting occasionally.

Cheers.

Edit: please disregard most of what I wrote below. I missed your second recording with V-I.

Maybe instead of letting the diminished hang unresolved, hit the I again so it's a mini I-V-I ? Or instead of playing the diminished chord of the current measure, play the diminished chord of the following measure on the 4 or 4-and to anticipate the next "I"? With a little rhythmic variation and enclosing the I with the diminished above and below you can get create lots of aural movement without lots of physical movement.

[wzpgsr]

Here are some ideas I put together for 'What Is This Thing Called Love', based on BH chords with a few tweaks. You'd probably want to syncopate the chords a bit more than this, i.e. play some on the half-beat to make it more rhythmically interesting.

Thanks for that. Very much appreciated. I'll try to bang away at this tonight.

[grahambop]

Same thing. One note movement. For me it is easier to simply think of the IV6, and then dropping the fifth note a half step. In fact, much easier for me to think about that than trying to think of the 5th of a dominant I'm not even going to play.

I think the point is that you only need to learn the maj6 and the min6 chord inversions, then everything is accessible from those. So for me it's easier to grab Dm6 to get a G7, those min6 shapes are automatic now all over the fretboard. If I have to convert F6 to G7 by lowering one note in all the inversions, that's adding a step I don't want to have to think about. This goes back to those simple rules I listed (post 28 was it?). They are basically all I use.

[ColinO]

I'm sorry, I find Kingstone's descriptions often make things abstract by using enharmonic names that needn't be so complicated. We were talking about the IV6, why start naming things differently? Suddenly I have to think about the dominant and its fifth? The fifth of the dominant IS the IV6. He just established that relationship one paragraph above. That was the awesome moment of revelation that starts this section. Then it gets abandoned for new terminology the next paragraph!

So, ii-7 = 5th of the 5th = IV6. All ways of calling the same thing. Seems simpler to me to just keep calling it the IV6.

ii-7 = IV6
ii-6 = IV6^b5
ii-7->ii-6 = IV6->IV6^b5

Same thing. One note movement. For me it is easier to simply think of the IV6, and then dropping the fifth note a half step. In fact, much easier for me to think about that than trying to think of the 5th of a dominant I'm not even going to play.

BTW, the IV6^b5 is also the VII-7^b5 which is probably why it resolves so well to the I. But, again, I think the point of the method is to keep these things simple. Let's keep thinking in the terms of the IV6 and we're golden.

EDIT: To Kingstone's credit, I think he is trying to use as many different terms to describe the same thing as he can to show it from as many angles as possible. I just wish he had made that more explicit, or would reference back to what he just presented a paragraph or page earlier for more consistency. For example (Spoiler Alert!) in the next section he covers I-V6-Vdim-I. He calls it "6th on the 5th". A logical follow on to I-IV6-IVdim-I, even if he doesn't call this section the "6th on the 4th".

I like that you are looking at it from your own perspective. As I say, I really get a lot out of that.

It's simpler to me to just say - when you see a m7 play a 6 chord a minor third above that. And when you see a V7 chord, play a m6 a 5th above that or a m2 above the dominant if you want an altered sound. Or play the diminished chord a m2 above the dominant root. And also think about the dominant chords that are brothers and sisters of the dominant that you are dealing with if you want to be fancy.


I think that it helps me to see how you are looking at this. It just seems more complicated to me at this point.

Keep up the good stuff.

[wzpgsr]

Just curious. When you're comping in an improvisational way (not playing an arrangement), what chord tone(s) of a maj/min do you relate the diminished chords to as your road map? For example, I find myself trying to be aware of the root and applying the diminished chords to the maj 7 or the 2 intervals. I suppose you could pick a string and be aware of the intervals as they move up and down the string as well. I dunno, one the things I appreciate about the BH method is that it allows me to pretty quickly move around based on the sounds of specific movement patterns or chord shapes without thinking "lessee....this third, this is the flat six", etc. I guess I'm interested in how you guys are organizing the information for quick application on the bandstand. I tend to practice patterns and get the sounds of those patterns lodged usefully in my muscle memory.

[rlrhett]

I like that you are looking at it from your own perspective. As I say, I really get a lot out of that.

It's simpler to me to just say - when you see a m7 play a 6 chord a minor third above that. And when you see a V7 chord, play a m6 a 5th above that or a m2 above that of you want an altered sound. Or play the diminished chord a m2 above the dominant root. And also think about the dominant chords that are brothers and sisters of the dominant that you are dealing with if you want to be fancy.

I think that it helps me to see how you are looking at this. It just seems more complicated to me at this point.

I think any way of looking at it that helps keep it in mind is valid. That is probably why Alan Kingston takes different approaches within the book.

One thing I would add comes from the little BH I've read and seen on online. It is my impression that he was very against thinking of things as "ii-V" or "I-V-I" or "I-iv-ii-V". He encouraged thinking in terms of movement and moving voices. Given that, distilling his system down to new substitutions or fingerings for a "ii" or a "V" or substitutions for a Maj7 or Dom7 in a void or without reference to the movement seems contrary to the spirit of BH's teachings. Although that is probably very useful and I certainly appreciate the effort grahambop and other have made in reaching this synthesis.

I admit that is why I resist in part thinking of things as substitutions for the "ii" chord, and then a different substitution for the "V" chord. Rather, I found appealing to think of it as movement of the 5th down half a step (or of the 5th and the 3rd down half a step in the first example) but keeping the IV6 in mind. Movement leading home, not three different substitutions for the V7 chord. Of course, that is also not necessarily simpler. The vi-6 (Gb-6 in the book example) requires movement in three voices: the 5th and the 3rd move down just like in the IVdim but this time the 6th moves up.

Still, I am just beginning to try to get this under my fingers and into my mind. I am definitely no BH expert, and although I've been playing classical, folk and rock guitar for 30 years I am very new to jazz. I'll probably regret not simply adopting the prevailing thought that all this really is is new fingerings for ii chords and V chords.

[rlrhett]

Here is a video of what I'm talking about. Think videos make it clearer. More of a conversation and you can see/hear the guitar.

[grahambop]

Just curious. When you're comping in an improvisational way (not playing an arrangement), what chord tone(s) of a maj/min do you relate the diminished chords to as your road map? For example, I find myself trying to be aware of the root and applying the diminished chords to the maj 7 or the 2 intervals. I suppose you could pick a string and be aware of the intervals as they move up and down the string as well. I dunno, one the things I appreciate about the BH method is that it allows me to pretty quickly move around based on the sounds of specific movement patterns or chord shapes without thinking "lessee....this third, this is the flat six", etc. I guess I'm interested in how you guys are organizing the information for quick application on the bandstand. I tend to practice patterns and get the sounds of those patterns lodged usefully in my muscle memory.

I think I just try to get the chords to follow an attractive melodic line. So I'm hearing where the top note is going to and from, but also I'm starting to hear the movement of the inner voices of the chords at the same time. Which I think is one of the benefits of playing around with this stuff.

I am guided by my ears ultimately rather than the theory. For that reason I don't always play the intervening diminished chords, sometimes I think they can sound a bit odd or awkward. (the one between 5 and 6 doesn't appeal to me very much for some reason).

[ColinO]

I think any way of looking at it that helps keep it in mind is valid. That is probably why Alan Kingston takes different approaches within the book.

One thing I would add comes from the little BH I've read and seen on online. It is my impression that he was very against thinking of things as "ii-V" or "I-V-I" or "I-iv-ii-V". He encouraged thinking in terms of movement and moving voices. Given that, distilling his system down to new substitutions or fingerings for a "ii" or a "V" or substitutions for a Maj7 or Dom7 in a void or without reference to the movement seems contrary to the spirit of BH's teachings. Although that is probably very useful and I certainly appreciate the effort grahambop and other have made in reaching this synthesis.

I admit that is why I resist in part thinking of things as substitutions for the "ii" chord, and then a different substitution for the "V" chord. Rather, I found appealing to think of it as movement of the 5th down half a step (or of the 5th and the 3rd down half a step in the first example) but keeping the IV6 in mind. Movement leading home, not three different substitutions for the V7 chord. Of course, that is also not necessarily simpler. The vi-6 (Gb-6 in the book example) requires movement in three voices: the 5th and the 3rd move down just like in the IVdim but this time the 6th moves up.

Still, I am just beginning to try to get this under my fingers and into my mind. I am definitely no BH expert, and although I've been playing classical, folk and rock guitar for 30 years I am very new to jazz. I'll probably regret not simply adopting the prevailing thought that all this really is is new fingerings for ii chords and V chords.

I understand. One thing though- I don't believe that the Gbm6 is the VIm6. The VIm6 would be Gm6 in BbM. AK is suggesting playing a m6/dim chord scale a semi-tone up from the dominant chord in order to get an altered sound. The dominant is F7 so the chord scale to use is Gbm6.

He first choice of dim6 scales to use for dominant sound is the minor 6/dim on the 5th of the dominant 7 chord. Which would be Cm6 in the key of Bb. And using Cm6/dim scale is a chord scale we now know so you can move that all over the place easily rather than having to think about all the inversions of the IV6b5 chord.

Converting everything back to key centred scale degrees seems to complicate things and I think is going to make things very difficult to deal with other things. For example, if we can substitute 7th chords a minor 3rd apart - eg Ab7 - B7 - D7 for F7, it seems simpler to me to think of the m6 up a fifth - Ebm6 - Gbm6 - Am6 for Cm6, than it would be to try and figure out how each of those m6th/dim scales relate to the BbM key center.

Also, the IV6 works when dealing with a iim7, but what about a m7 that is not the ii? If you us the AK approach - a 6th a minor third up from the m7, then you don't have to do much thinking. I imagine that the thinking gets even more complicated once he introduces the 5th of the 6 thing.

So three choices for a dominant:

1. play the diminished chord a m2 above the dominant (ie V7b9 if you like)
2. play the min6/dim movement a 5th above the dominant
3. play the min6/dim movement a m2 above the dominant for altered sound.

Lastly, I didn't read AK as saying he's not into I - V - I movement. In fact, I thought the point was to make everything into I-V-I movement and to get away from ii-V movement. That's why he's not really just subbing a 6 chord for a ii - rather he's subbing the 6/dim scale movement for the ii and the m6/dim scale movement for the V.

Anyway, we all see things through our own lens. I'm not saying you are approaching this wrong at all. In fact, maybe in an effort to simplify this I am missing the big picture. Keep doing what you are doing.

Cheers.

[christianm77]

A few thoughts and twiddles

[ColinO]

Christian. I can't wait to hear the thoughts - and especially the twiddles - but when I try to open the vid it is marked "private" so I can't open it.

[grahambop]

So three choices for a dominant:

1. play the diminished chord a m2 above the dominant (ie V7b9 if you like)
2. play the min6/dim movement a 5th above the dominant
3. play the min6/dim movement a m2 above the dominant for altered sound.

I had a quick look at the book this morning (haven't looked at it for a while) and there is a useful section about 'playing on dominants' which covers the above choices.

When you start to apply the BH approach to tunes, the dominant chords are the ones where a lot of the really tasty stuff happens, at least that's been my experience.

[christianm77]

Should be good now!