Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Posts 51 to 100 of 557
  1. #51

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    I'm not sure it's wise to limit the range of the 'scale of chords' that BH talks about.

    I'm thinking of Alan Kingstone's 'movers and hitters', too - but it's most clearly evident in the piano-like comping of Pasquale Grasso.

    I'm not a fan, either - but it needn't sound muddy (especially if you get the gauge right on those lower strings).
    When playing chords on the bottom 4 strings, if it sounds muddy, just omit (mute) the 5th string, then it sounds ok.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanZ View Post
    Confused about using bIII6 as a substitution: bIII6 in C = Eb6 = cm7 or Im7?
    Looks right.

  4. #53

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    When playing chords on the bottom 4 strings, if it sounds muddy, just omit (mute) the 5th string, then it sounds ok.

    That gets you into essential shell voicing territory.

    My favorite shell voicing is on strings 432--voices dispersed as 3-M7-R. That minor 2nd between strings 3 and 2 is great! Even better is the melodic minor version, with the m3-M7-R.
    Navdeep Singh.

  5. #54

    User Info Menu

    I like min6dim on tonic minor chords a lot. It's pretty old school. You have to hear the major 6 on minor sound.

  6. #55

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    To me, the most obvious basic application is on static chords lasting 2 measures, perhaps simply moving up or down the neck and alternating between the maj6 (or min6) chords and the diminished chords. Sometimes I will enclose the I (or i) chord with surrounding diminished chords or diminished chords that borrow the alto voice from the next highest chord.

    I am curious to ask, though, how you guys might be using the BH approach when a chord lasts just one measure, or even less than one measure. What sort of comping rhythms are you playing over these faster moving changes?

    I will sometimes precede the chord of the moment with a related diminished chord (with or without borrowing). For example, if there's one measure of C maj I will play a B diminished on the 4 or 4+ of the measure before.

    The thing is, BH talks about freeing oneself from ii-V, so I'm wondering if anyone has some examples of moving "through" changes without simply substituting the BH chords for what the Real Book might notate as a ii-V. Without extensive use of borrowing notes, it seems that the basic approach is really alternating between V and I, as NSJ stated earlier in the thread.
    Pick a tune

  7. #56

    User Info Menu

    How about What Is This Thing Called Love? It has both major, minor and hybrid ii-Vs, has opportunities for sitting on maj and min 6 for two bars, and has that Ab7 to G7 that I never quite know what to do with. Seems like a well-rounded learning song for BH approach.

  8. #57

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    When playing chords on the bottom 4 strings, if it sounds muddy, just omit (mute) the 5th string, then it sounds ok.
    True - no need for such detail in all contexts or styles.

    But I do think that - if one's going to practise - it's worth aiming for consistency in the voicings throughout registers and string sets.

    For me, that - more than the manner in which strings are set in motion - is at once a terrifying nod to Tatum and an invitation to break out of yet another box.

  9. #58

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    How about What Is This Thing Called Love? It has both major, minor and hybrid ii-Vs, has opportunities for sitting on maj and min 6 for two bars, and has that Ab7 to G7 that I never quite know what to do with. Seems like a well-rounded learning song for BH approach.
    Thing is you can actually cover the a section with 2 BH scales

    Gm7b5 C7b9 Fm6
    Is F minor 6-dim

    Dm7b5 G7b9 Cmaj6
    Is c major 6-dim

    But I'm not sure how well this works (I am not near a guitar ATM)
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-13-2017 at 07:21 PM.

  10. #59

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Thing is you can cover the a section with 2 BH scales

    Gm7b5 C7b9 Fm6
    Is F minor 6-dim

    Dm7b5 G7b9 Cmaj6
    Is c major 6-dim
    Ab7 to G7 - I would advise probably Ebm6-dim and the G7 can be set up to take you back into C major or minor - not sure. Any definitive answers?

    TBH I would try out a few things and see what I liked best. The blurring of the major/minor thing with the maj6-dim is a lot of fun
    Last edited by christianm77; 04-13-2017 at 07:40 PM.

  11. #60

    User Info Menu

    Actually thinking about it I tend to hear the BH scales from the point of view of tonicising a temporary key centre. So in the case of Ab7 G7 a good thing to do might be to use one of the dominant scales (G7-dim) or (G7b5-dim) even though there's no Ab.

    Alan buddy, what do you think?

  12. #61

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Actually thinking about it I tend to hear the BH scales from the point of view of tonicising a temporary key centre. So in the case of Ab7 G7 a good thing to do might be to use one of the dominant scales (G7-dim) or (G7b5-dim) even though there's no Ab.

    Alan buddy, what do you think?
    FWIW, my gut tells me this is more about playing with key centers than it is about adding movement to individual chords. But I still don't see the forest for the trees, so we will see...

  13. #62

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    FWIW, my gut tells me this is more about playing with key centers than it is about adding movement to individual chords. But I still don't see the forest for the trees, so we will see...
    Here's how I would apply some BH chord movement to 'What is this thing called, love?'. Take the first 4 bars for example:
    / Gm7b5 / C7 / Fm / Fm /

    For Gm7b5, pick a suitable chord from Bbmin6/dim then move up or down that scale. I would only do about 3 chords per bar or it gets too 'busy'. I tend to start with a chord on the middle 4 strings around the middle of the neck, then you've got more options.

    When you get to the C7, just find the nearest chord (I mean physically on the fingerboard) from the relevant 6/dim scale you want to use for C7. You'll get smoother movement and voice-leading that way. For dominant chords you have got more options, as follows:
    C7: use Gmin6/dim.
    C7b9: just use E diminished chords and move them in minor thirds or whole and half steps.
    C7 altered (C7#5b9): use Dbmin6/dim.
    It's up to you which of these 3 'paths' you choose, use your ear, which sounds best to you?
    Move up or down whichever one you chose, until you get to Fm.

    For Fm you can either use Fmin6/dim (if you want Fmin6 sound), or use Ab6/dim to get Fmin7 sound.

    Now continue the same process for the rest of the progression. See, it's not that hard in principle.

    It's also a good idea to practise the 6/dim scales so that you cross from one string set to another, e.g. start on the middle 4 strings then at some point cross to the appropriate chord on the top 4 strings and continue from there. Because you will need to do this on actual tunes.

    I may be able to knock up an example on this tune, but it will have to wait a few days.
    Last edited by grahambop; 04-14-2017 at 01:54 PM.

  14. #63

    User Info Menu

    Thanks for all the suggestions. Once I get something a bit more solid together I'll make a video.

    I seem to find better sounds by following the key center approach with borrowing a bit of borrowing.

    I also tried comping four to the bar using the more "modal" approach where G-7b5 uses the Bb-6 scale and C7b9 uses Db-6, but had some trouble making this sound right. I played an inversion on beat 1, diminished on beat 2, inversion on beat 3, then on beat 4, a diminished from the next measure's chord scale.

    Will keep at it, because theoretically, at least, this should work. I also I think I need to revisit the rhythmic suggestions made by BH and AK.

  15. #64

    User Info Menu

    So moving on, I've done the sections on "Organic Diminished" and "Brothers and Sisters". I am not going to link the video here, as it really is just me scratching my head on this. There is a video on the playlist I created for this at:

    Kingstone/Harris - YouTube

    But the upshot is that Kingstone first describes that there is a dominant chord built by lowering just one note of a diminished chord. Whatever note you lower becomes the root of the dominant. That isn't terribly new or innovative, but there you are. Then he points out that you can substitute these four dominants for each other. Again, pretty standard stuff. They move up the minor thirds just like the diminished chords.

    The next section is harder to understand the musical application. He notes that the dominant chords themselves are related to a constellation of chords. The dominant leads to a major7. The major7 has a related min7. The min7 has its own dominant. The dominants all have tritone substitutions.

    I suppose it is interesting that there are so many overlaps that we really end up having just four of each quality of chords: maj7-min7-dom. But I don't get how that is useful to know. Is he suggesting that four maj7 can substitute for each other like the dom7? How do you use this knowledge?

    Finally, the section goes into a bit of curious math. Again, the musical application is not clear. The curious thing about any base 12 system, whether it is time measurements or a dozen eggs, is that it is divisible by 1,2,3 or 4. Divide the scale up in 4ths and you get a stacking of 4 minor thirds that fit perfectly. Divide by 3 and you have a stacking of major 3rds. Etc. Cool from that "have you ever looked at clouds, I mean REALLY looked at clouds..." kind of perspective. Just don't know what I would do with that.

  16. #65

    User Info Menu

    Next is a really cool little bit of application called "Playing with Dominants".

    We begin by noticing that the ii7 is enharmonic to the IV6. So he suggest thinking of it from that perspective. What is cool about that is the voice leading possibilities. His first movement is to take that IV6 and turn it into an IVdim. Two notes move a half step. Remembering back from the harmonized scales, the 4th scale note harmonized as a dim chord. So we are in the scale and can go to any pleasing inversion of the I6 chord. Really sweet sounding in almost any inversion or combinations of IV6->IVdim->I6. So this gives you a nice voice-leading progression to play over a ii-V-I.

    Next, he shows how if you take the 5th of a IV6 and drop it a half note it is the same as going from a ii7 to a ii6. This is even more subtle movement and although bigger movement to the I. Very subtle and nice.

    Finally, we have the movement from IV6->VImin6>I. The leap to the VImin6 is bigger, and sound pretty out, but it shares a lot of notes with the I6. So it too has good voice leading and a satisfying resolution.

    So there you go. Three new ways to think of a ii-V-I. This stuff is great!


  17. #66

    User Info Menu

    What I find interesting/useful is that bIIMaj7, bIIIMaj7, IVMaj7 and bVIIMaj can all be substituted for a dom 7 chord. So for G7 you could use AbMaj7, BbMaj7, CMaj7, or FMaj7. Actually depending on what you 'ear' is comfortable with, there are others but those are the 4 that I like.

    Then keeping in mind that the 4 related dominants can be substituted for each other, those same 4 Maj7th chords can also be used in place of Bb7, Db7, and E7. Suggest trying them against all 4 chords in that dominant family (G7, Bb7, Db7, E7) and see if you like the sound.

  18. #67

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Next is a really cool little bit of application called "Playing with Dominants".

    We begin by noticing that the ii7 is enharmonic to the IV6. So he suggest thinking of it from that perspective. What is cool about that is the voice leading possibilities. His first movement is to take that IV6 and turn it into an IVdim. Two notes move a half step. Remembering back from the harmonized scales, the 4th scale note harmonized as a dim chord. So we are in the scale and can go to any pleasing inversion of the I6 chord. Really sweet sounding in almost any inversion or combinations of IV6->IVdim->I6. So this gives you a nice voice-leading progression to play over a ii-V-I.

    Next, he shows how if you take the 5th of a IV6 and drop it a half note it is the same as going from a ii7 to a ii6. This is even more subtle movement and although bigger movement to the I. Very subtle and nice.

    Finally, we have the movement from IV6->VImin6>I. The leap to the VImin6 is bigger, and sound pretty out, but it shares a lot of notes with the I6. So it too has good voice leading and a satisfying resolution.

    So there you go. Three new ways to think of a ii-V-I. This stuff is great!

    Great stuff. Keep these coming. I agree that including the I makes things a lot clearer. You are probably going to be moving more quickly through this than me as I have been working on getting the conversion to 6th chords solidified in my mind. Honestly I took AK's use of the Adim for F7 too lightly and you pointing out that it would make more sense to look at as IVdim instead really helps. Going back to the basic idea that the 6/dim chord scale ends up as a series of I-V-I chords then makes more sense. The IVdim is the same dim that is used in the I6/dim series so really brings it together.

    I have been been trying to apply this the ATTYA and will try to post something when I get home from work.

    Cheers.
    Still working on it.

  19. #68

    User Info Menu

    So I quickly did the first eight bars of ATTYA by first using the 6th chords in place of the Real Book chords. So instead of Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - AbM7 - DbM7 - G7 - CM7, I used Ab6 - Db6 - Bbm6 - Ab6 - Db6 - Dm6 - CM6. The voicings were chosen by keeping the melody as the top note. It's rough but sounds like this:

    Last edited by ColinO; 04-19-2017 at 12:41 PM.
    Still working on it.

  20. #69

    User Info Menu

    Next I used the same voicings and added the diminished chord from the 6/dim scale for the following chord so as to create a V - I leading into each chord.

    Still working on it.

  21. #70

    User Info Menu

    Next I again used the same voicings but this time used the dim chord for the chord that I was on to see how that sounded. so it ends up as a I - V leading away from each chord.



    Still pretty rough but I can see a lot of possibilities. As you can gather I am still trying to get the basics covered. There is a lot to assimilate just of to this point - ie playing around with dominants and I intend to work on that for a while before proceeding much further. I will certainly be following along with the thread and continuing to work through the book and posting occasionally.

    Cheers.
    Still working on it.

  22. #71

    User Info Menu

    Really enjoying the insights, enthusiasm and experimentation!

  23. #72

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Next, he shows how if you take the 5th of a IV6 and drop it a half note it is the same as going from a ii7 to a ii6. This is even more subtle movement and although bigger movement to the I. Very subtle and nice.

    Finally, we have the movement from IV6->VImin6>I. The leap to the VImin6 is bigger, and sound pretty out, but it shares a lot of notes with the I6. So it too has good voice leading and a satisfying resolution.
    I hope you don't mind a probably dumb question - this is a study group after all. I think I am missing these two moves in the book. I see where he talks about the Adim so I get that.

    But where is he talking about the 5th of a IV6 dropped a half note or the VImin6. I see where he talks about using the min6 a fifth from the dominant and a flat two of the dominant but I am not seeing the two you speak of. A page number would be great. Thanks.

    By the way. I love the way you are describing this using the IV6 etc. It is a different way of describing it than I am seeing it described in the book or at least how I am interpreting it. It actually helps seeing you come at it from a different angle than I am looking at it. Maybe it's like binocular vision or something.
    Still working on it.

  24. #73

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post
    I hope you don't mind a probably dumb question - this is a study group after all. I think I am missing these two moves in the book. I see where he talks about the Adim so I get that.

    But where is he talking about the 5th of a IV6 dropped a half note or the VImin6. I see where he talks about using the min6 a fifth from the dominant and a flat two of the dominant but I am not seeing the two you speak of. A page number would be great. Thanks.

    By the way. I love the way you are describing this using the IV6 etc. It is a different way of describing it than I am seeing it described in the book or at least how I am interpreting it. It actually helps seeing you come at it from a different angle than I am looking at it. Maybe it's like binocular vision or something.
    I'm sorry, I find Kingstone's descriptions often make things abstract by using enharmonic names that needn't be so complicated. We were talking about the IV6, why start naming things differently? Suddenly I have to think about the dominant and its fifth? The fifth of the dominant IS the IV6. He just established that relationship one paragraph above. That was the awesome moment of revelation that starts this section. Then it gets abandoned for new terminology the next paragraph!

    So, ii-7 = 5th of the 5th = IV6. All ways of calling the same thing. Seems simpler to me to just keep calling it the IV6.

    ii-7 = IV6
    ii-6 = IV6b5
    ii-7->ii-6 = IV6->IV6b5

    Same thing. One note movement. For me it is easier to simply think of the IV6, and then dropping the fifth note a half step. In fact, much easier for me to think about that than trying to think of the 5th of a dominant I'm not even going to play.

    BTW, the IV6b5 is also the VII-7b5 which is probably why it resolves so well to the I. But, again, I think the point of the method is to keep these things simple. Let's keep thinking in the terms of the IV6 and we're golden.

    EDIT: To Kingstone's credit, I think he is trying to use as many different terms to describe the same thing as he can to show it from as many angles as possible. I just wish he had made that more explicit, or would reference back to what he just presented a paragraph or page earlier for more consistency. For example (Spoiler Alert!) in the next section he covers I-V6-Vdim-I. He calls it "6th on the 5th". A logical follow on to I-IV6-IVdim-I, even if he doesn't call this section the "6th on the 4th".
    Last edited by rlrhett; 04-19-2017 at 03:17 PM.

  25. #74

    User Info Menu

    Here are some ideas I put together for 'What Is This Thing Called Love', based on BH chords with a few tweaks. You'd probably want to syncopate the chords a bit more than this, i.e. play some on the half-beat to make it more rhythmically interesting.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  26. #75

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post
    Next I again used the same voicings but this time used the dim chord for the chord that I was on to see how that sounded. so it ends up as a I - V leading away from each chord.



    Still pretty rough but I can see a lot of possibilities. As you can gather I am still trying to get the basics covered. There is a lot to assimilate just of to this point - ie playing around with dominants and I intend to work on that for a while before proceeding much further. I will certainly be following along with the thread and continuing to work through the book and posting occasionally.

    Cheers.
    Edit: please disregard most of what I wrote below. I missed your second recording with V-I.

    Maybe instead of letting the diminished hang unresolved, hit the I again so it's a mini I-V-I ? Or instead of playing the diminished chord of the current measure, play the diminished chord of the following measure on the 4 or 4-and to anticipate the next "I"? With a little rhythmic variation and enclosing the I with the diminished above and below you can get create lots of aural movement without lots of physical movement.
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 04-19-2017 at 05:01 PM.

  27. #76

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    Here are some ideas I put together for 'What Is This Thing Called Love', based on BH chords with a few tweaks. You'd probably want to syncopate the chords a bit more than this, i.e. play some on the half-beat to make it more rhythmically interesting.
    Thanks for that. Very much appreciated. I'll try to bang away at this tonight.

  28. #77

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    Same thing. One note movement. For me it is easier to simply think of the IV6, and then dropping the fifth note a half step. In fact, much easier for me to think about that than trying to think of the 5th of a dominant I'm not even going to play.
    I think the point is that you only need to learn the maj6 and the min6 chord inversions, then everything is accessible from those. So for me it's easier to grab Dm6 to get a G7, those min6 shapes are automatic now all over the fretboard. If I have to convert F6 to G7 by lowering one note in all the inversions, that's adding a step I don't want to have to think about. This goes back to those simple rules I listed (post 28 was it?). They are basically all I use.

  29. #78

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    I'm sorry, I find Kingstone's descriptions often make things abstract by using enharmonic names that needn't be so complicated. We were talking about the IV6, why start naming things differently? Suddenly I have to think about the dominant and its fifth? The fifth of the dominant IS the IV6. He just established that relationship one paragraph above. That was the awesome moment of revelation that starts this section. Then it gets abandoned for new terminology the next paragraph!

    So, ii-7 = 5th of the 5th = IV6. All ways of calling the same thing. Seems simpler to me to just keep calling it the IV6.

    ii-7 = IV6
    ii-6 = IV6b5
    ii-7->ii-6 = IV6->IV6b5

    Same thing. One note movement. For me it is easier to simply think of the IV6, and then dropping the fifth note a half step. In fact, much easier for me to think about that than trying to think of the 5th of a dominant I'm not even going to play.

    BTW, the IV6b5 is also the VII-7b5 which is probably why it resolves so well to the I. But, again, I think the point of the method is to keep these things simple. Let's keep thinking in the terms of the IV6 and we're golden.

    EDIT: To Kingstone's credit, I think he is trying to use as many different terms to describe the same thing as he can to show it from as many angles as possible. I just wish he had made that more explicit, or would reference back to what he just presented a paragraph or page earlier for more consistency. For example (Spoiler Alert!) in the next section he covers I-V6-Vdim-I. He calls it "6th on the 5th". A logical follow on to I-IV6-IVdim-I, even if he doesn't call this section the "6th on the 4th".
    I like that you are looking at it from your own perspective. As I say, I really get a lot out of that.

    It's simpler to me to just say - when you see a m7 play a 6 chord a minor third above that. And when you see a V7 chord, play a m6 a 5th above that or a m2 above the dominant if you want an altered sound. Or play the diminished chord a m2 above the dominant root. And also think about the dominant chords that are brothers and sisters of the dominant that you are dealing with if you want to be fancy.


    I think that it helps me to see how you are looking at this. It just seems more complicated to me at this point.

    Keep up the good stuff.
    Last edited by ColinO; 04-20-2017 at 07:50 AM.
    Still working on it.

  30. #79

    User Info Menu

    Just curious. When you're comping in an improvisational way (not playing an arrangement), what chord tone(s) of a maj/min do you relate the diminished chords to as your road map? For example, I find myself trying to be aware of the root and applying the diminished chords to the maj 7 or the 2 intervals. I suppose you could pick a string and be aware of the intervals as they move up and down the string as well. I dunno, one the things I appreciate about the BH method is that it allows me to pretty quickly move around based on the sounds of specific movement patterns or chord shapes without thinking "lessee....this third, this is the flat six", etc. I guess I'm interested in how you guys are organizing the information for quick application on the bandstand. I tend to practice patterns and get the sounds of those patterns lodged usefully in my muscle memory.

  31. #80

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post
    I like that you are looking at it from your own perspective. As I say, I really get a lot out of that.

    It's simpler to me to just say - when you see a m7 play a 6 chord a minor third above that. And when you see a V7 chord, play a m6 a 5th above that or a m2 above that of you want an altered sound. Or play the diminished chord a m2 above the dominant root. And also think about the dominant chords that are brothers and sisters of the dominant that you are dealing with if you want to be fancy.

    I think that it helps me to see how you are looking at this. It just seems more complicated to me at this point.

    I think any way of looking at it that helps keep it in mind is valid. That is probably why Alan Kingston takes different approaches within the book.

    One thing I would add comes from the little BH I've read and seen on online. It is my impression that he was very against thinking of things as "ii-V" or "I-V-I" or "I-iv-ii-V". He encouraged thinking in terms of movement and moving voices. Given that, distilling his system down to new substitutions or fingerings for a "ii" or a "V" or substitutions for a Maj7 or Dom7 in a void or without reference to the movement seems contrary to the spirit of BH's teachings. Although that is probably very useful and I certainly appreciate the effort grahambop and other have made in reaching this synthesis.

    I admit that is why I resist in part thinking of things as substitutions for the "ii" chord, and then a different substitution for the "V" chord. Rather, I found appealing to think of it as movement of the 5th down half a step (or of the 5th and the 3rd down half a step in the first example) but keeping the IV6 in mind. Movement leading home, not three different substitutions for the V7 chord. Of course, that is also not necessarily simpler. The vi-6 (Gb-6 in the book example) requires movement in three voices: the 5th and the 3rd move down just like in the IVdim but this time the 6th moves up.

    Still, I am just beginning to try to get this under my fingers and into my mind. I am definitely no BH expert, and although I've been playing classical, folk and rock guitar for 30 years I am very new to jazz. I'll probably regret not simply adopting the prevailing thought that all this really is is new fingerings for ii chords and V chords.

  32. #81

    User Info Menu

    Here is a video of what I'm talking about. Think videos make it clearer. More of a conversation and you can see/hear the guitar.


  33. #82

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr View Post
    Just curious. When you're comping in an improvisational way (not playing an arrangement), what chord tone(s) of a maj/min do you relate the diminished chords to as your road map? For example, I find myself trying to be aware of the root and applying the diminished chords to the maj 7 or the 2 intervals. I suppose you could pick a string and be aware of the intervals as they move up and down the string as well. I dunno, one the things I appreciate about the BH method is that it allows me to pretty quickly move around based on the sounds of specific movement patterns or chord shapes without thinking "lessee....this third, this is the flat six", etc. I guess I'm interested in how you guys are organizing the information for quick application on the bandstand. I tend to practice patterns and get the sounds of those patterns lodged usefully in my muscle memory.
    I think I just try to get the chords to follow an attractive melodic line. So I'm hearing where the top note is going to and from, but also I'm starting to hear the movement of the inner voices of the chords at the same time. Which I think is one of the benefits of playing around with this stuff.

    I am guided by my ears ultimately rather than the theory. For that reason I don't always play the intervening diminished chords, sometimes I think they can sound a bit odd or awkward. (the one between 5 and 6 doesn't appeal to me very much for some reason).

  34. #83

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    I think any way of looking at it that helps keep it in mind is valid. That is probably why Alan Kingston takes different approaches within the book.

    One thing I would add comes from the little BH I've read and seen on online. It is my impression that he was very against thinking of things as "ii-V" or "I-V-I" or "I-iv-ii-V". He encouraged thinking in terms of movement and moving voices. Given that, distilling his system down to new substitutions or fingerings for a "ii" or a "V" or substitutions for a Maj7 or Dom7 in a void or without reference to the movement seems contrary to the spirit of BH's teachings. Although that is probably very useful and I certainly appreciate the effort grahambop and other have made in reaching this synthesis.

    I admit that is why I resist in part thinking of things as substitutions for the "ii" chord, and then a different substitution for the "V" chord. Rather, I found appealing to think of it as movement of the 5th down half a step (or of the 5th and the 3rd down half a step in the first example) but keeping the IV6 in mind. Movement leading home, not three different substitutions for the V7 chord. Of course, that is also not necessarily simpler. The vi-6 (Gb-6 in the book example) requires movement in three voices: the 5th and the 3rd move down just like in the IVdim but this time the 6th moves up.

    Still, I am just beginning to try to get this under my fingers and into my mind. I am definitely no BH expert, and although I've been playing classical, folk and rock guitar for 30 years I am very new to jazz. I'll probably regret not simply adopting the prevailing thought that all this really is is new fingerings for ii chords and V chords.
    I understand. One thing though- I don't believe that the Gbm6 is the VIm6. The VIm6 would be Gm6 in BbM. AK is suggesting playing a m6/dim chord scale a semi-tone up from the dominant chord in order to get an altered sound. The dominant is F7 so the chord scale to use is Gbm6.

    He first choice of dim6 scales to use for dominant sound is the minor 6/dim on the 5th of the dominant 7 chord. Which would be Cm6 in the key of Bb. And using Cm6/dim scale is a chord scale we now know so you can move that all over the place easily rather than having to think about all the inversions of the IV6b5 chord.

    Converting everything back to key centred scale degrees seems to complicate things and I think is going to make things very difficult to deal with other things. For example, if we can substitute 7th chords a minor 3rd apart - eg Ab7 - B7 - D7 for F7, it seems simpler to me to think of the m6 up a fifth - Ebm6 - Gbm6 - Am6 for Cm6, than it would be to try and figure out how each of those m6th/dim scales relate to the BbM key center.

    Also, the IV6 works when dealing with a iim7, but what about a m7 that is not the ii? If you us the AK approach - a 6th a minor third up from the m7, then you don't have to do much thinking. I imagine that the thinking gets even more complicated once he introduces the 5th of the 6 thing.

    So three choices for a dominant:

    1. play the diminished chord a m2 above the dominant (ie V7b9 if you like)
    2. play the min6/dim movement a 5th above the dominant
    3. play the min6/dim movement a m2 above the dominant for altered sound.

    Lastly, I didn't read AK as saying he's not into I - V - I movement. In fact, I thought the point was to make everything into I-V-I movement and to get away from ii-V movement. That's why he's not really just subbing a 6 chord for a ii - rather he's subbing the 6/dim scale movement for the ii and the m6/dim scale movement for the V.

    Anyway, we all see things through our own lens. I'm not saying you are approaching this wrong at all. In fact, maybe in an effort to simplify this I am missing the big picture. Keep doing what you are doing.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by ColinO; 04-20-2017 at 08:48 AM.
    Still working on it.

  35. #84

    User Info Menu

    A few thoughts and twiddles


  36. #85

    User Info Menu

    Christian. I can't wait to hear the thoughts - and especially the twiddles - but when I try to open the vid it is marked "private" so I can't open it.
    Still working on it.

  37. #86

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post
    So three choices for a dominant:

    1. play the diminished chord a m2 above the dominant (ie V7b9 if you like)
    2. play the min6/dim movement a 5th above the dominant
    3. play the min6/dim movement a m2 above the dominant for altered sound.
    I had a quick look at the book this morning (haven't looked at it for a while) and there is a useful section about 'playing on dominants' which covers the above choices.

    When you start to apply the BH approach to tunes, the dominant chords are the ones where a lot of the really tasty stuff happens, at least that's been my experience.

  38. #87

    User Info Menu

    Should be good now!

  39. #88

    User Info Menu

    Was worth the wait. Thanks for that.
    Still working on it.

  40. #89

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    I think any way of looking at it that helps keep it in mind is valid. That is probably why Alan Kingston takes different approaches within the book.

    One thing I would add comes from the little BH I've read and seen on online. It is my impression that he was very against thinking of things as "ii-V" or "I-V-I" or "I-iv-ii-V". He encouraged thinking in terms of movement and moving voices. Given that, distilling his system down to new substitutions or fingerings for a "ii" or a "V" or substitutions for a Maj7 or Dom7 in a void or without reference to the movement seems contrary to the spirit of BH's teachings. Although that is probably very useful and I certainly appreciate the effort grahambop and other have made in reaching this synthesis.

    I admit that is why I resist in part thinking of things as substitutions for the "ii" chord, and then a different substitution for the "V" chord. Rather, I found appealing to think of it as movement of the 5th down half a step (or of the 5th and the 3rd down half a step in the first example) but keeping the IV6 in mind. Movement leading home, not three different substitutions for the V7 chord. Of course, that is also not necessarily simpler. The vi-6 (Gb-6 in the book example) requires movement in three voices: the 5th and the 3rd move down just like in the IVdim but this time the 6th moves up.

    Still, I am just beginning to try to get this under my fingers and into my mind. I am definitely no BH expert, and although I've been playing classical, folk and rock guitar for 30 years I am very new to jazz. I'll probably regret not simply adopting the prevailing thought that all this really is is new fingerings for ii chords and V chords.
    AFAIK it sounds to me like you have an excellent grasp on the ethos of Barry's teaching here.

    It's really not about naming vertical chords. In fact if you are using the scale fluently you may not have names for the chords you are playing, and if someone presses you to name them it might take a couple of seconds to work it out!

    That's what I'm aiming towards in my harmonic playing with or without Barry's system - just a fluent river of harmonic movement.

  41. #90

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    A few thoughts and twiddles
    Great stuff. Thanks for that. I agree that borrowing is the key to opening up power of BH's approach. Your run through the changes in the middle of the video illustrates this do nicely.
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 04-20-2017 at 04:28 PM.

  42. #91

    User Info Menu

    So the next section of AK's book is the 6th on the 5th. He describes how playing a 6th chord a 5th above another 6th chord results in a Maj9 chord of the latter chord. so playing a C6 over an F6 is effectively an FM9 chord. Nice. And moving from the C6 to the F6 sounds great. He brings in the "borrowing" idea in that the C6 is actually F6 with two notes borrowed from the Gdim which is the dim used in the F6/dim scale. My impression is that AK talks about the 6th on the 5th in part because it is an easier way to find those two dim notes that you need than to try and figure it out by using the dim scale. Either way it sounds great and shows how borrowing dim notes can create some cool sounds.

    It also makes sense in the context of traditional chords in that C6 is the same as Am7 which is the iii7 of FM - a common sub. And Am7 is also the vi7 of CM - another common sub. So it's easy to see why this works so well.

    He then moves the two borrowed notes down a semitone which results in a Cdim chord and then down another semitone to resolve to the F6. Very nice. Sounds great.

    He goes on to say that you can do the same thing thinking about the F6 as a Dm7 - so a IV6 in C. Same move - different context. Again - so cool. Of some interest, in the examples he gives, he refers to the F6 as the I even though it is actually the IV6/ii7 but the names are probably not important, just the movement.

    My question for the group is - where does that Cdim chord fit in terms of the theory? It is not part of either the C6/dim scale or the F6/dim scale. It results in a V6 - Vdim - I6 movement. Or iii7(I) - Vdim - I in the first context and what? a I6 - bVIIdim - IV6/ii7 in the second? But wherefore the Cdim? Is it simply a matter of keeping the notes moving toward "home"? Or is there something else going on?
    Last edited by ColinO; 04-21-2017 at 08:12 AM.
    Still working on it.

  43. #92

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post
    My question for the group is - where does that Cdim chord fit in terms of the theory? It is not part of either the C6/dim scale or the F6/dim scale. It results in a V6 - Vdim - I6 movement. Or iii7(I) - Vdim - I in the first context and what? a I6 - bVIIdim - IV6/ii7 in the second? But wherefore the Cdim? Is it simply a matter of keeping the notes moving toward "home"? Or is there something else going on?
    I think my brain just exploded! Thank you ColinO. I hadn't noticed that. It's going to take some "twiddling" to solidify my thoughts, but I think that observation just unlocked the book for me. The upshot is that each section of the book seems to teach us movement using one of each of the three dim scales. Built on the I, IV, and V. See page 28. Each dim scale has its own movement and sound, and learning to use all three is the key for fluid and creative harmonic movement.

    Give mea couple of days and I'll throw up a video of what I think you just unlocked for me. Locking the door and kicking the family out for a little while...
    Last edited by rlrhett; 04-21-2017 at 09:22 PM.

  44. #93

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett View Post
    I think my brain just exploded! Thank you ColinO. I hadn't noticed that. It's going to take some "twiddling" to solidify my thoughts, but I think that observation just unlocked the book for me. The upshot is that each section of the book seems to teach us movement using one of each of the three dim scales. Built on the I, IV, and V. See page 28. Each dim scale has its own movement and sound, and learning to use all three is the key for fluid and creative harmonic movement.

    Give me a couple of days and I'll throw up a video of what I think you just unlocked for me. Locking the door and kicking the family out for a little while...
    Wow. I am seeing what you are saying. Just looking at p 28. And also 27. There is a ton of stuff in there that is going to take me a while to figure out. You are right though. Those sections are really important to understand. Just fiddling around a bit with it leads to a bunch of interesting connections - not only the one that I was asking about (which by the way depends on using the iiim7 sub for I so was cheating a bit in my book). Rather than seeing the bIII6dim going to iii/I, it seems like it's a lot easier when playing just to think Idim->I6 as he suggests.

    I also see now where the V6 was coming from. It's really the same as treating the iiim7 as a sub for I6. For example, In C - the iiim7 is Em7 - he says for all m7s play a 6th a minor third above which would be G6. Nice.
    Still working on it.

  45. #94

    User Info Menu

    Let's see:

    C E G A
    C Eb F# A

    So, this belongs to the Gmaj6-dim

    OK what about the F6 then? Do we just patch in another scale (i.e. it moves to F or C?)

    F A C D

    And the back to Gmaj6-dim?
    C Eb F# A
    C E G A

    Always found that bit a bit confusing myself. Should probably get the book.

  46. #95

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Let's see:

    C E G A
    C Eb F# A

    So, this belongs to the Gmaj6-dim

    OK what about the F6 then? Do we just patch in another scale (i.e. it moves to F or C?)

    F A C D

    And the back to Gmaj6-dim?
    C Eb F# A
    C E G A

    Always found that bit a bit confusing myself. Should probably get the book.
    Just starting to learn this stuff. But if Am7 is a sub for F6 then play C6 for Am7 and you are back to G6. I honestly have no idea.

    Edit: By the way, the book says bIIIdim moves to both iii(I) or ii(IV6). I'm not really clear why it "moves" there but assumed it had to do with having to move two notes a semitone. Sounds good though.
    Last edited by ColinO; 04-22-2017 at 05:04 PM.
    Still working on it.

  47. #96

    User Info Menu

    But if that's right, then any dim chord can resolve to any major 6 chord:

    eg F6

    C#dim=Edim which is the F6/dim scale
    Cdim is the dim related to G6/dim and G6 functions as C6/Am7 the iiim7 of F
    Bdim is the dim related to C6/dim which is Am7, the iiim7 of F

    Probably way over-thinking. Missing the forest for the trees and all that.
    Still working on it.

  48. #97

    User Info Menu

    To me Pages 26-28 are basically saying here's 3 more cool ways to move with a dim chord which is not in the 6/dim scales already discussed. I.e. using dim chord on the b2, the b3 and the #4, followed by a 6 chord or a min7 as detailed (and min7 is of course a 6 chord by another name).

    b3 dim is the same as 1 dim so you can do simple things on one chord like C6 Cdim C6 without hardly moving your fingers. (I used this at the end of that 'What's this thing called love' example I did).

    I'm not too worried about the theory behind it, they are cool sounds so I get them under my fingers and use them. I did read the whole explanation, but I will probably forget a lot of it!

    To me these particular moves have a kind of Basie or Ellington flavour to them, which is nice.
    Last edited by grahambop; 04-23-2017 at 12:29 PM.

  49. #98

    User Info Menu

    I dim is just a shorthand for me as movement to the IV chord
    Navdeep Singh.

  50. #99

    User Info Menu

    I have a different take that I'm still trying to work out. But here goes a little more:

    I don't think the idea is that the dim scales are interchangeable. At the risk of channeling Pat Martino (minus the weird pentagrams and spiritual musings), the dim scales give us the key to the basic three family structure of western harmony. Thank you CollingO for helping me make the connection between BH and PM.

    Here is my simplified take:

    There are three dim scales that don't overlap. The 12 tones of western music can be divided into these three families. Each of these families have a different harmonic function. I don't think we all universally agree on what that function is, but I think we all hear the three families as being different and related.

    For example, if you start with any one of those 12 tones as your "tone center" or "key" and apply the major scale you have three major chords: I, IV, V. They each function differently harmonically. This has been described in terms of tension, movement away from rest, anticipation, home, etc.

    Turns out that each of those major chords is related to one of the three dim scales. They are each in a different "family".

    The chords built on those dim scales can keep you in the "family". You stay on I (and and anything that has the same harmonic function) by playing the harmonized Maj6dim scale. You stay on the IV by playing the harmonized Maj6dim scale built on the IV. Same for the V.

    You transition from one family to the other through the voice leading magic of the dim chords (or the min6 chords, which in my mind seem to function as ambiguous half way points between a Maj6 and a dim chord that create more "out" sounds). A half step movement in two voices (one or three for the cool min6 variants) puts you smoothly into the next family.

    I've related the three families to the I, IV, and V chords because I have a rock/folk/blues background. I know that is not how PM looks at it. I understand his triangles and three parental chords, but the rest of his world of minor keys and substitutions is beyond me at the moment.

    Still, I think the key to this book is to recognize that it is all about harmonizing thinking about these three families. Within the families are your "Brothers and Sisters", transitioning from one family to another is "Away and Home" in Kingstone's language, and chapter 2 of this book is all about using the dim chords to transition between the families with pleasant and smooth voice leading.

    I'll post a video tonight when I get the chance.

  51. #100

    User Info Menu

    Here is the promised video. A little tedious (some of you may say a LOT! ) But I think it helps explain my evolving thinking on this material. Hope you find it useful...