Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar

[NSJ]

right, the #i dim pulls to ii/IV, the i dim pulls to the I AND the ii/IV (latter being the point of the progression).

Doesn't bringing minor into it just ad confusion?

yeah, sorry I've been working on minor blues of late, so that's why I was referencing iv minor. a ii-V7 to iv minor would be C7 alt of course. C# dim still works in that regard.

Just noting that the dim is part of the dominant family, i.e, a chord of movement, that's the bigger point. Same principle works in a minor blues as it would in the Basie ending noted above. Which I play a lot as well.

[Boston Joe]

I've never heard of "The Basie Ending," but that's certainly what it sounds like!

I'm not sure if that's an actual term or just something I made up. He sure did seem to do it a lot though.

[joe2758]

Thanks Joe! it’s a difficult one, for me at least, to play but I might shed it. If you do the same mixing of voicings for 6 dim scales you can get beautiful contrary motion

[Boston Joe]

Thanks Joe! it’s a difficult one, for me at least, to play but I might shed it. If you do the same mixing of voicings for 6 dim scales you can get beautiful contrary motion

I'm still trying to nail the shapes on the middle four strings. Contrary motion is probably a year or two away yet!

[Boston Joe]

I can't be the first person to have noticed this:

Ionian Major - Nat 6
Harmonic Major - b6

Melodic Minor - Nat 6
Harmonic Minor - b6

Both of the Harris scales are hybrids of their melodic and harmonic variants. Both scales contain all the harmonic possibilities of both variants.

----

Also, as long as I've got the posting page up, how long did it take you guys to make the mental shift to the Harris naming? I've been immersed in this for about three weeks now, and I can kinda-sorta do it, but I still have to stop and work it out in some keys. I realize three weeks isn't that long. I'm probably being impatient, but I'm telling myself that I'm just looking down the road for landmarks.

[christianm77]

C Maj 6-dim

Contains C major, C harmonic Major, G dominant, E7 to the third of G7, A harmonic minor, A natural minor

[Boston Joe]

C Maj 6-dim

Contains C major, C harmonic Major, G dominant, E7 to the third of G7, A harmonic minor, A natural minor

I haven't worked with them much, but don't the dominant scales have the extra note between the b7 and the root? IOW, wouldn't G dominant have an added F# rather than G#?

(Or by "dominant" do you mean Mixolydian? I mean, by definition, any scale that contains a major scale as a subset is also going to include all of the modes of that scale.)

[christianm77]

Mixolydian is a confusing and pretentious alternative name for dominant scale, it is true :-)

The dominant scale has the number of added notes required by the added note rules. Which could be anything between 3 and 0 depending.

The is also 7-dim scale but that’s got
1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7 7

[christianm77]

The other modes of the major scale don’t really feature too much here....

That said, on an amusing side note I was at a Barry class on ATTYA. We stop on the Db chord and Barry says, ‘here we play a Db Major scale but it has a G in it.’

I look around the class. No one was stupid enough to say what they were thinking.

Next day ‘Berklee, that dumb old school...’

[joe2758]

that’s really funny Christian, was it a IV chord?

[Boston Joe]

The dominant scale has the number of added notes required by the added note rules.

Mixolydian is a confusing and pretentious alternative name for dominant scale, it is true :-)

The is also 7-dim scale but that’s got
1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7

Ah, okay. I've only been working with the chord-scales. I haven't gotten into the added notes yet. Will probably not work on single line stuff for some time. I want to get comping and harmonized melodies working first. (Hence why I'm posting in this thread rather than the other BH thread.)

Arguments about terminology seem a little silly to me, but "dominant" seems vague. It could potentially refer to anything with a major third and a minor seventh (which may be the point - but that's not something I've investigated). "Mixolydian" is the term I learned early on (and of course, as I'm in Boston, it's also the term everyone else around here uses) so feels the most intuitive. "Fifth mode of the major" seems cumbersome. So Mixo is what I use to indicate a major scale with a lowered seventh.

Perhaps as I learn more, I'll come to favor your terminology, but I don't actually care what word gets used as long as we understand each other. I've just been using those Greek names for so long that they're basically just mental shorthand at this point.

[christianm77]

that’s really funny Christian, was it a IV chord?

Yes

[christianm77]

Ah, okay. I've only been working with the chord-scales. I haven't gotten into the added notes yet. Will probably not work on single line stuff for some time. I want to get comping and harmonized melodies working first. (Hence why I'm posting in this thread rather than the other BH thread.)

Arguments about terminology seem a little silly to me, but "dominant" seems vague. It could potentially refer to anything with a major third and a minor seventh (which may be the point - but that's not something I've investigated). "Mixolydian" is the term I learned early on (and of course, as I'm in Boston, it's also the term everyone else around here uses) so feels the most intuitive. "Fifth mode of the major" seems cumbersome. So Mixo is what I use to indicate a major scale with a lowered seventh.

Perhaps as I learn more, I'll come to favor your terminology, but I don't actually care what word gets used as long as we understand each other. I've just been using those Greek names for so long that they're basically just mental shorthand at this point.

Most of my students are the same. Basically I can’t help mixing it up, but I do try and gravitate to the Barry names for things just because I don’t want to second guess things in a system I feel I am still very much in the process of learning.

I do think dominant scale is a much better name. I also feel altered is a better name than superlocrian and so on. Naming the scale after the basic chord is to me good pedagogical practice.

OTOH - I got corrected online by a Barry student for using the term arpeggio the way most of us would - to refer to a melodic figure based on a four note chord - e.g. C E G B being an arpeggio of Cmaj7. Barry would call this a chord, not an arp. An arpeggio is another melodic figure entirely.*

I took another look at ‘Talk Jazz’ and Roni Ben Hurr uses arpeggio the way I did.

So, its a tricky one. I want to make the ideas accessible to the student, but I want to teach correct information. What terminology is essential and what makes the information less accessible.

*cf that silly debate on the other thread

[Boston Joe]

Most of my students are the same. Basically I can’t help mixing it up, but I do try and gravitate to the Barry names for things just because I don’t want to second guess things in a system I feel I am still very much in the process of learning.

I do think dominant scale is a much better name. I also feel altered is a better name than superlocrian and so on. Naming the scale after the basic chord is to me good pedagogical practice.

OTOH - I got corrected online by a Barry student for using the term arpeggio the way most of us would - to refer to a melodic figure based on a four note chord - e.g. C E G B being an arpeggio of Cmaj7. Barry would call this a chord, not an arp. An arpeggio is another melodic figure entirely.*

I took another look at ‘Talk Jazz’ and Roni Ben Hurr uses arpeggio the way I did.

So, its a tricky one. I want to make the ideas accessible to the student, but I want to teach correct information. What terminology is essential and what makes the information less accessible.

*cf that silly debate on the other thread

You don't hear "superlocrian" around here much. Most people say "altered". In fact, I don't think I've ever heard anybody actually say the word. I've only seen it in print.

[christianm77]

You don't hear "superlocrian" around here much. Most people say "altered". In fact, I don't think I've ever heard anybody actually say the word. I've only seen it in print.

No one says superlocrian apart from people who actually enjoy the music of Dream Theater.

[christianm77]

Anyway really in two minds how much to translate Barry into modern Berklee speak (which is quite possible) for ease of communication - I think many long time BH students are very anti this.

I would always say ‘it’s just names and names aren’t that important’ but I don’t know really.

[A. Kingstone]

In Toronto classes before Toronto became complacent to Barry (perhaps too hipper than thou) I would jest about the vernacular "It's all Greek to me" at which Barry would humour me with a chuckle.

"Barry says 'It's Dominant because it dominates".

I was confused for years about differing between the harmonic method and the melodic method. Half-Step Rules ("The rules are more important than the scales" BH) are line stuff.

Sixth-Diminished is harmonic (chordal) stuff. (Though I admit through my confusion, I now use six/dim in my lines)

Boston Joe you fucking Red Sox loving Bruin supporting three week initiate (Thank you so much for buying my book and supporting Barry's message); it took me years to transform from 2/5 to 6th/6th/6th. Love and kisses Joe!


Alan

Addendum (mostly dum)

You know what? The more I think about it I am still always converting. It has over the years become more natural to make the conversion (Minor Seventh = Sixth - Diminished / Dominant = Sixth - Diminished / One = Sixth - Diminished).

The way I know tunes is 2/5/1 etc. but I convert for movement (and harmonic interests sake).

Now it is thinking of them (Changes/Barry's Chord-Scales) at the same time.

Persevere


Oh another thing.

1/3/5/7 is a Four Note Chord

1/3/5/1 is an arpeggio.

Barry will start his Vocalist classes; "Can you sing a Major arpeggio.....?" singing, starting on the tonic and working up and down from each degree. I implore all instrumentalists (especially us guitar nerds) to take Barry's vocal classes (while we can) to learn his six over four time feel.

[rlrhett]

Straight from the horses mouth.

I will echo that the six/dim scale is a HARMONIC device, and not apparently how Barry builds lines over changes.

I think it bears underscoring as I have seen the confusion pop up regularly. Of course, I’ve been thoroughly confused as well. I got the Howard Reese DVD after I studied Alan’s book and felt a bit betrayed. What the heck did he mean “do C7 up to the third, Fmaj down with three added notes, etc”. Where was my beloved 6/dim scale?

There was a thread about four years ago where the OP asked how to use the dom/dim and dom-b5/dim scales to build harmony. The thread immediately went to BH’s teaching on using the (sorry about this) myxolidian scale with rhythmic fill notes to build lines over dominant harmonies. Twice the OP thanks the other posters but explains that is not what he was asking about.

In the end the OP never gets the discussion/guidance/examples he was hoping for on the use of these scales/inversions to harmonize and drops off the discussion.

I blame CST, where the harmony and lines are linked by the same scale. It is hard for us to internalize a system where the harmony is expressing one scale and the melody another. But I believe that is very much the case for BH.

A final little personal note. I’ve been playing guitar since my pre-teen years. I have classmates whose kids are graduating college. So that’s a good while. In all those years I never bothered to learn anything about harmony. A lead sheet said to play “Ab-9” or a fake book had a D/A Chord diagram then that is what I played. After a few false starts with functional harmony (eg David Berkman’s excellent book) I came across Alan’s book. It hit a chord with me....

Seriously, it just made sense in a way nothing else did. Now I find I have to do constant translating... from 6-dim to ii-V-I!


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[joe2758]

There was a thread about four years ago where the OP asked how to use the dom/dim and dom-b5/dim scales to build harmony. The thread immediately went to BH’s teaching on using the (sorry about this) myxolidian scale with rhythmic fill notes to build lines over dominant harmonies. Twice the OP thanks the other posters but explains that is not what he was asking about.
Pro

man too bad i missed that one; that’s all I keep trying to talk about on here lol

[christianm77]

In Toronto classes before Toronto became complacent to Barry (perhaps too hipper than thou) I would jest about the vernacular "It's all Greek to me" at which Barry would humour me with a chuckle.

"Barry says 'It's Dominant because it dominates".

I was confused for years about differing between the harmonic method and the melodic method. Half-Step Rules ("The rules are more important than the scales" BH) are line stuff.

Sixth-Diminished is harmonic (chordal) stuff. (Though I admit through my confusion, I now use six/dim in my lines)

Boston Joe you fucking Red Sox loving Bruin supporting three week initiate (Thank you so much for buying my book and supporting Barry's message); it took me years to transform from 2/5 to 6th/6th/6th. Love and kisses Joe!


Alan

Addendum (mostly dum)

You know what? The more I think about it I am still always converting. It has over the years become more natural to make the conversion (Minor Seventh = Sixth - Diminished / Dominant = Sixth - Diminished / One = Sixth - Diminished).

The way I know tunes is 2/5/1 etc. but I convert for movement (and harmonic interests sake).

Now it is thinking of them (Changes/Barry's Chord-Scales) at the same time.

Persevere


Oh another thing.

1/3/5/7 is a Four Note Chord

1/3/5/1 is an arpeggio.

Barry will start his Vocalist classes; "Can you sing a Major arpeggio.....?" singing, starting on the tonic and working up and down from each degree. I implore all instrumentalists (especially us guitar nerds) to take Barry's vocal classes (while we can) to learn his six over four time feel.

‘I can sing the whole tone scale!’

But what about the minor scale for lines Alan? (Or do you have an online lesson about that?)

[A. Kingstone]

‘I can sing the whole tone scale!’

But what about the minor scale for lines Alan? (Or do you have an online lesson about that?)

I use Minor 6th Diminished.

My online lessons are just harmony. I'm sure Howard covers the minor lines though.



'I can't sing a bloody thing'

[christianm77]

I use Minor 6th Diminished.

My online lessons are just harmony. I'm sure Howard covers the minor lines though.



'I can't sing a bloody thing'

'I tried to sing a major scale but it came out as the whole tone scale.'

do you play stepwise lines with the min-6 dim, or is that not proper? I vaguely remember Barry teaching something like (in Cm)

C B A Ab G F Eb F D Db C

For instance, descending three note rule...

[A. Kingstone]

'I tried to sing a major scale but it came out as the whole tone scale.'

do you play stepwise lines with the min-6 dim, or is that not proper? I vaguely remember Barry teaching something like (in Cm)

C B A Ab G F Eb F D Db C

For instance, descending three note rule...

I never learned the 1/2 step rules for minor. I think it was for saturation and sanity reasons.

I think the most important thing that Barry says on this is 'The rule is more important than the scale'.

Meaning a scale can be any collection of 8 notes and the rules are the half-steps (or extra notes ie:leaps) that make it rhythmically stable. This is covered in Workshop video 2.

You example works because there are 3 extra notes starting on ONE.

[Bobby Marshall]

I implore all instrumentalists (especially us guitar nerds) to take Barry's vocal classes (while we can) to learn his six over four time feel.

Does anyone know if Barry covers that in his vocal workshop dvd? Not sure if I will ever get the opportunity to attend a live event.

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[WILSON 1]

A lead sheet said to play “Ab-9” or a fake book had a D/A Chord diagram then that is what I played. After a few false starts with functional harmony (eg David Berkman’s excellent book) I came across Alan’s book. It hit a chord with me....

Uh-oh. I just downloaded DB’s book. Am I moving backwards?
This thread should be PDFed into a book.
THX Rhett


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