The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #251

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    I admit that I have checked in on this thread intermittently over time and have not read every post, but in the spirit of "less is more", it seems that dominant chords should be analyzed here in the context of whether they are of "Type 1" (those that do not resolve down a fifth) or "Type 2" (those that do resolve down a fifth).

    "Type 1" dominant chords are derived from the minor 6/diminished scale based on the 5th of the chord ("Type 1" G7 chord comes from Dm6/dim) and includes tensions 9, #11, 13.

    "Type 2" dominants are derived from the minor 6/dim scale a half step above the root of the dominant chord ("Type 2" G7 chord comes from Abm6/dim) and includes tensions b9, #9, b5, #5.

    So, to me, this simplifies the concepts. It is then only necessary to begin to visualize the m6/dim movements in the context of the proper "Type" of dominant chord. With a fair amount of practice, I am now able to find Type 1 & Type 2 chord shapes easily all over the fretboard without having to reference them to the root, and I can move and resolve them up or down because I know where each shape falls in relation to their m6/dim scale.

    Again, perhaps this has already been covered here, but I find this to be the simplest method for understanding the dominant material.
    Last edited by Mark M.; 07-15-2017 at 07:52 AM.

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  3. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanZ
    Hope I'm not 'muddying the water' but if you're moving from A7 to D or V-I, I'm thinking that A7 is either Bbm6 or Em6 and the dim associated with both of those is A, C, Eb, or Gb. Whichever of those you choose to think of it as, they're the R, #9, #11, 13 of A7 and will resolve nicely to D. If I've missed something important, any input would be appreciated. Btw, from the 'sisters & brothers' perspective, A7, C7, Eb7, & Gb7 are interchangeable, so Bbm6/A dim or Ebm6/A dim could also resolve to key centers F, Ab, or B as well as D.
    Another way of saying what I said.

  4. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M.
    I admit that I have checked in on this thread intermittently over time and have not read every post, but in the spirit of "less is more", it seems that dominant chords should be analyzed here in the context of whether they are of "Type 1" (those that do not resolve down a fifth) or "Type 2" (those that do resolve down a fifth).

    "Type 1" dominant chords are derived from the minor 6/diminished scale based on the 5th of the chord ("Type 1" G7 chord comes from Dm6/dim) and includes tensions 9, #11, 13.

    "Type 2" dominants are derived from the minor 6/dim scale a half step above the root of the dominant chord ("Type 2" G7 chord comes from Abm6/dim) and includes tensions b9, #9, b5, #5.

    So, to me, this simplifies the concepts. It is then only necessary to begin to visualize the m6/dim movements in the context of the proper "Type" of dominant chord. With a fair amount of practice, I am now able to find Type 1 & Type 2 chord shapes easily all over the fretboard without having to reference them to the root, and I can move and resolve them up or down because I know where each shape falls in relation to their m6/dim scale.

    Again, perhaps this has already been covered here, but I find this to be the simplest method for understanding the dominant material.
    This is how I look at it too. Page 19 and page 39 cover the approach for dominants.

  5. #254

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    Ok, ok...I have the throat thing. It went away and then it came back again.

    The thing is here in retirement I socialize with people who go cruising and visit their grandchildren up north who bring back all kinds of ailments to hand around.

    I've only been retired 4 years and have been sick 3 times! In 40 years of work I was really sick maybe 3 times!

    Anyway...

  6. #255

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    I didn't have time to watch the whole clip (gotta go to work!) but I think the dominant thing just boils down to this:
    if you want an unaltered dominant use the min6/dim on the 5th.
    if you want an altered dominant use the min6/dim on the flat 2nd.

    Which is how the type 1 type 2 stuff comes about from Emily Remler etc, although I don't see that as a rigid rule. I don't always play altered dominants on a V7 to I movement.

  7. #256

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I didn't have time to watch the whole clip (gotta go to work!) but I think the dominant thing just boils down to this:
    if you want an unaltered dominant use the min6/dim on the 5th.
    if you want an altered dominant use the min6/dim on the flat 2nd.
    I get a lot of mileage out of playing and teaching that. Not Barry - but Barry compatible so to speak?

    Which is how the type 1 type 2 stuff comes about from Emily Remler etc, although I don't see that as a rigid rule. I don't always play altered dominants on a V7 to I movement.
    What? Why not???? ;-)

    Actually, the min6 on the b7 is also a good 'un. See Charlie Christian.

  8. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I get a lot of mileage out of playing and teaching that. Not Barry - but Barry compatible so to speak?.
    I don't know if Barry presents it that way, but Alan Kingstone does on page 19 of his book, that's really where I got it from.

    On page 19 AK says m6 on the 5th gives a rootless Dom 9, while m6 on the flat II generates altered sounds.

  9. #258

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    Wilson and Graham, I agree that the Type 1/Type 2 rules are not absolute. I think Wilson's video captures what I'm getting at. My goal is to be able to grab a "Type 1" or "Type 2" shape anywhere that I happen to be on the fretboard and be able to move it up or down in the appropriate m6/dim sequence of shapes. Maybe easier to demonstrate than describe. Perhaps I'll try to put together a short video also.

    Interesting discussion. This approach has really opened my ears!

  10. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I don't know if Barry presents it that way, but Alan Kingstone does on page 19 of his book, that's really where I got it from.

    On page 19 AK says m6 on the 5th gives a rootless Dom 9, while m6 on the flat II generates altered sounds.
    Sorry crossed wires - you are talking about m6-dim scales? Indeed.

  11. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sorry crossed wires - you are talking about m6-dim scales? Indeed.
    yes this thread is only concerned with Alan's book which is essentially the 6/dim harmonic (chords) stuff.

  12. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M.
    Wilson and Graham, I agree that the Type 1/Type 2 rules are not absolute. I think Wilson's video captures what I'm getting at. My goal is to be able to grab a "Type 1" or "Type 2" shape anywhere that I happen to be on the fretboard and be able to move it up or down in the appropriate m6/dim sequence of shapes. Maybe easier to demonstrate than describe. Perhaps I'll try to put together a short video also.

    Interesting discussion. This approach has really opened my ears!
    agreed, my current practice routine (aka grab the guitar for half an hour before I go to bed!) is basically just taking the BH chords through all the tunes I know. Still not easy to do, but in the process I am finding some nice movements that are very re-useable in different tunes.

  13. #262

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    yes this thread is only concerned with Alan's book which is essentially the 6/dim harmonic (chords) stuff.
    You can have a lot of fun running the m6-dim stuff into lines on dom7 chords. Simplest would be alternating dim7 and m6. Must give that a go

  14. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Actually, the min6 on the b7 is also a good 'un. See Charlie Christian.
    Min6 on b7 works quite well as a min6/dim chord-scale on a dominant, I tried it out and it sounds ok.

    E.g. for a G7 you can play Fmin6/dim chords, this gives a rootless G7b9 sound with an added 11. The dim chord for the Fmin6 is Edim which is the same as the other ones anyway. (i.e. if you use Dm6 or Abm6 to cover a G7, they use the same dim chord).

    This probably relates to what Alan says in the book about the 4 related dominants etc. So in theory you could probably use the min6 on the III, which is the remaining one. But I'm not so keen on that one. For example on a G7 you would play Bmin6/dim. To me that one sounds a bit odd because the Bm6 contains F#, a bit weird on a G7.

  15. #264

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    Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar-whatchord-png

    Ok let me go on the record and say that I believe that since Barry Harris has given us the "universe" in the chromatic major scale...that EVERY chord under the sun can be constructed using some 6 dim scale with borrowed tones...

    so...

    ...when not intensely studying Mr. Kingstones' book I like to look at certain chord melodies to see if the BH harmonic system is in use and more importantly; if that theory is correct and if I can ascertain the origin of the harmonics.

    We build hybrid chords though out the book; here we "reverse engineer" one.

    The last chord is a hybrid from C6 dim and the approach note is not important to this discussion.

    But anyone want to name that number 4 chord and how it's built using BH harmonics?

    It's shameful how long it took me to get it.

  16. #265

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    It's G7#9b13 resolving to Em voiced in 4ths which is III substituting for I

  17. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanZ
    It's G7#9b13 resolving to Em voiced in 4ths which is III substituting for I
    In the BH approach I personally would think of this as a first inversion C6 with the root on the alto voice borrowing the D from the next diminished chord in the scale. So, a rootless C6/9.

  18. #267

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    yes, em7 is indeed the same as c6/9 w/o the root

  19. #268

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    To get the chord resolving to the C6/9 using the BH approach, we are going to use G#m6 to get an altered sound:

    XX6867

    Then we are going to borrow the soprano voice from the preceding diminished chord on the G#m6:

    XX6866

    And perhaps a bit esoteric, but since we are subbing for G7 and resolving to C, we can reborrow that third we just flatted from the Bdim:

    XX9866

  20. #269
    Not to nit-pick, but I think you mean a rootless Cmaj9, not a rootless C6/9

    rootless C6/9 = E-G-A-D
    rootless Cmaj9 = E-G-B-D
    Em7 = E-G-B-D

    Em7 = Cmaj9(rootless) = G6

    I think that makes it simpler because you don't have to think about borrowing. It's more like substituting.

  21. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrhett
    Not to nit-pick, but I think you mean a rootless Cmaj9, not a rootless C6/9

    rootless C6/9 = E-G-A-D
    rootless Cmaj9 = E-G-B-D
    Em7 = E-G-B-D

    Em7 = Cmaj9(rootless) = G6

    I think that makes it simpler because you don't have to think about borrowing. It's more like substituting.
    If you take first inversion C6 on strings 2-5 you should get:

    x7758x which has the following chord tones of C6:
    xEACGx or in intervals:
    x3615x

    The next chord up the C6 diminished scale on the same string set is:

    x8979x
    xFBDAbx

    So I am just borrowing the alto voice from that diminished chord, giving us:

    x7778x which has the following chord tones of C6/9:
    xEADGx or in intervals:
    x3695x

    I don't think there's a benefit to thinking of the resolution chord as anything other than a C6 with a borrowed tone. That's how Barry teaches it: take the tonic maj6 chord, choose a voice (bass, tenor, alto, soprano) and borrow from the next diminished chord all the way up the scale. You basically get V-I movements that are made more harmonically interesting through borrowing various notes.

    Once we start introducing the idea that it's actually an E-7, or a G6, or whatever, the simplicity and elegance is lost. To tell the truth, naming the chords after the fact kind of gets in the way for me. I think it's good theoretically to know where you're at and what you're playing when you do things like move around the harmonizations of the scales and borrow, but I think it gets too convoluted when we start to think iii-7 subbing for C6. The whole point of this approach, at least for me, is to be able to create more interesting sounds without having to think too much on the fly.

  22. #271
    I think we are talking apples and oranges here.

    x7778x as in the WILSON1's post is neither a Cmaj9 nor a G6 nor an e-7. Using that fingering as a resolution to a cadence in the key of C, it certainly makes sense to try to see it as a C6. A "borrowed" note gets you there. That makes sense, and I wasn't really addressing that concept.

    SeanZ, I believe, was talking about a functional analysis for why an e-7 would work at the end of this cadence. After all, an e-7 is enharmonic to G6, not C6. His point was that an e-7 is a C6/9 and therefore was a C6. Maybe I misunderstood. I didn't disagree, but merely pointed to the small issue that an e-7 is actually a Cmaj9, not a C6/9. It still works functionally for the same reason, just isn't a C6 chord. If you did play x7978x rather than x7778x I suppose you can think of the Cmaj9 as a C6 with two borrowed notes, but I believe that also strays from the simplicity of the BH system you are talking about.

    As far as thinking of things in terms of 6dim and -6dim, I am a huge believer. However most charts do not follow that convention, so I am constantly "translating" into 6 or -6 chords. It is useful to me when I see an e-7 or a Cmaj9 remember that it is also a G6. The same "borrowed" notes are available. So rather than thinking of subbing a I6 with a iii-7, I am actually translating the other way INTO the 6 chord. For me it is easier to make that mental translation into a G6 than trying to mentally borrow enough notes to turn something listed in a chart as Cmaj9 into a C6 or an E-7 into a E-6.

    In the end, I suspect we are both approaching this in similar ways just using different words to describe it.

  23. #272

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    No man, I totally get where you're coming from. I'm thinking about looking at a chart and back engineering chords per Wilson's post. In general, once I identify from the first and resolution chords that we are in C major, I will sort of abandon the chart and think in terms of moving and resolving within/to C. Lots of tools and approaches to do this using BH's teachings.

    Back engineering a chart like this is pretty cool--there's no way in a million years I would have thought of borrowing in quite so esoteric manner as how I think the G7#9b13 was derived. But now that I've done it, I'm curious to see how that particular pattern of borrowing will sound when harmonized along the entire length of the G#m6 scale.

  24. #273

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanZ
    It's G7#9b13 resolving to Em voiced in 4ths which is III substituting for I
    How did you build it?

  25. #274

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    Seems the Barry Harris concept is as theoretical and convoluted as more coventional music theory. Does it really help? I'm a pretty mathematically minded person, and it would suit me just fine if playing by algorithm made wonderful music, but it has never worked for me.

  26. #275

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILSON 1
    Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar-whatchord-png

    Ok let me go on the record and say that I believe that since Barry Harris has given us the "universe" in the chromatic major scale...that EVERY chord under the sun can be constructed using some 6 dim scale with borrowed tones...

    ...

    But anyone want to name that number 4 chord and how it's built using BH harmonics?

    It's shameful how long it took me to get it.
    I'll bite - but I hope someone will supply the right answer.

    (I'm having trouble understanding the tab, but) I hear a Maj7b5 - and I think the b5 is another case of borrowing from diminished neighbours.