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  1. #1

    Books Mr. Goodchord Scan Project

    I know there has been some discussion on this forum regarding the Mick Goodrick Mr Goodchord Volumes and that they have been out of print for some time. I have access to a scanner at work that can scan through its feed tray on the top of the copier. Wondering if anyone out there would mind me borrowing their Goodchord volumes to scan in. I don't know what legal climate this would put us all in, as it is copyrighted material, however, it's been out of publication and therefore there is no legal means of purchasing the book and thereby giving money to the proper author and publisher. Please let me know if you would mind my borrowing a copy in order to scan in a version for myself. Thanks in advance. Also, if this post gets taken down its no big deal. I realize the area of the law that this request puts us all in. So if this post disappears, no harm no foul and I won't touch the subject again. Thanks all!

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  3. #2
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    You would probably be best served to contact Truthhertz through the forum here. He has the most information regarding the status of the books and knows the author personally.
    Cheers!

  4. #3
    I'm exploring the possibilities of Sher publishing reissuing the volumes of the almanacs, and all of Mick's published works if they would. This would put the material at easy access to everyone since Sher is widely distributed, and a great publisher by the way.
    If there were a digital copy floating around out there, it'd probably torpedo any possibilities of that happening. I just posted something about this on the thread I've got running in this forum.
    I'd encourage anyone interested in urging Sher in this endeavour to write to Sher and throw in your two cents.
    I'd also try to discourage dissemination of scanned digital copies at this point. But do what you must. It'd just be nice if a good publisher felt it was worth their time, and everyone could buy it (hard and/or download) with a benefit to the author.

    Is anyone using this material? Care to share your progress on the Goodchord thread?
    Thanks

    David

  5. #4
    It sounds to me like this fellow Goodrick had some friends in the Boston-area academic computing community, at some point, and they got to start talking music theory. And one of them, probably said, "Gee it would be simple enough to write a program, to generate the permutations of these voice movements". And it sounds like they went ahead and did it.

    Don't you think this is what happened? Lots of people have commented on unplayable note combinations, and the vast number of combinations, without any real sense of being able to figure out what is usable vs. what is not.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77 View Post
    It sounds to me like this fellow Goodrick had some friends in the Boston-area academic computing community, at some point, and they got to start talking music theory. And one of them, probably said, "Gee it would be simple enough to write a program, to generate the permutations of these voice movements". And it sounds like they went ahead and did it.

    Don't you think this is what happened? Lots of people have commented on unplayable note combinations, and the vast number of combinations, without any real sense of being able to figure out what is usable vs. what is not.
    Not at all. Though these volumes are organized to provide an exhaustive listing of voicing permutations, they are also designed as MUSICAL ideas. I knew Mick when he was putting these volumes together and they were a painstaking exploration of musical combinations based on established rules of voice leading.
    What resulted was something that is permutation based but organized to allow musical concepts to be employed in ways that musicians, especially guitarists don't even consider.
    Of course this can be done on a spread sheet these days. There's a member on the forum who's been putting together an app. That's good and fine, and if you wanted to put these together, you could take the guiding voice leading rules and do it yourself. That's what Mick did. Go ahead, anyone is welcome to do that.
    But having the volumes, having this material, whether it's generated by your own spreadsheet program or whether it's coming from a book that's got this worked out for you, is not the point.
    The point is musicians have long looked at their choice of chords in any particular situation as being determined by a set of chord families (drop 2, drop 3, etc) and the movement of roots tends to follow with root in bass position or a choice of inversion based on those small families of chord families.
    Much less often do we think in terms of voices moving linearally, with roots moving within the chord position to assure a melodic flow of each voice. This is the real beauty of the book: to provide an exhaustive compendium of chord flow based on root movement in cycles, in seconds, thirds, fourths, etc.
    If you begin to work with this material, you might learn that it's not necessarily useful to read through the pages in a linear way, but you may begin to acquire a sense of chord movement that is unlike anything anyone else has done and imparts a sense of melodic and harmonic flow through a set of changes.
    Piano players can play this way; they can see the voices laid out. Guitarists don't have the luxury of linear lay out so there is a solution, use a fixed chord voicing and move it around the fingerboard following the harmony.
    The almanacs give you a way of "seeing" root flow within the chords, developing a sense of melodic options that are largely the realm of pianists or composers.
    As far as the unplayability of some combinations, there are solutions. Fingerstyle players have more options with this material. As a compositional tool, they can all be used. Dyads can be used. They can be played linearally as arpeggios. Not everything is of the grab and strum mindset.
    These books are about imaginative approaches to linear harmony and they're written so no permutation is excluded.
    If it sounds like a computer's work, yes you can generate this material on a computer. But learning to audiate, visualize and turn it into practice is a function of organization and format. That's what these volumes do.
    That's what Mick was thinking when he discovered ways of getting around "traditional" chord harmony practices and started to find out just how big that possibility was.
    The result is 3 volumes that he admits he will never really scratch the surface of, yet for those who see the limitations of the drop 2 grab and play approach, there is a collected set of possibilities.
    There's more room for discussing these revelations on the other thread on the forum. Please feel free to visit and share your discoveries.
    David

  7. #6
    If the guy who wrote this, Goodrick himself, admits that he'll never get around to scratching the surface, where does that lead everyone else?!

    Is this organized in some way, that is practical, helpful?..because honestly the idea of 450 pp. of densely laid out chord movements, is enough for ten lifetimes....I've heard people make the same comment about Ted Greene's stuff....literally pages and pages of stuff.

    He's a full-time serious player, and I don't belittle his playing, just the practicality of the resource.

    It's a little like leading someone to Widener Library at Harvard (5-6 million volumes), and telling them, "Just start reading...you're bound to come across something worthwhile."

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77 View Post
    If the guy who wrote this, Goodrick himself, admits that he'll never get around to scratching the surface, where does that lead everyone else?!

    Is this organized in some way, that is practical, helpful?..because honestly the idea of 450 pp. of densely laid out chord movements, is enough for ten lifetimes....I've heard people make the same comment about Ted Greene's stuff....literally pages and pages of stuff.

    He's a full-time serious player, and I don't belittle his playing, just the practicality of the resource.

    It's a little like leading someone to Widener Library at Harvard (5-6 million volumes), and telling them, "Just start reading...you're bound to come across something worthwhile."
    A journey of 1000 miles starts with a single step. Like the Van Eps "Harmonic Mechanisms" volumes, Mick's work is to be explored over a lifetime, and each time you spend an hour on something, it expands your perception and playing overall. The very first page of Vol. 1 of the Almanac of Voice-Leading kept me busy for weeks, and improved my comping and composing immeasurably, and I'd been playing professionally for 40 years. And, by the way, while you are, indeed, bound to come across something at the Widener Library, Mick's books are about advancing your guitar knowledge and creativity, and, as he says, there's no need for any single guitarist to learn all this, but working in them will produce these results: Better fingerboard knowledge, better scale knowledge, better counterpoint, interesting use of open and fretted strings together, increased ability to move several voices independently, increased comping, compositional, improvisational and teaching skills, and, increased humility.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77 View Post
    If the guy who wrote this, Goodrick himself, admits that he'll never get around to scratching the surface, where does that lead everyone else?!
    It leaves everyone else with greater possibility to exceed the master on their own terms, with their own initiative.
    If you're looking for a book that tells you how to play an arrangement of "Here's That Rainy Day" in Ab, then DO NOT BUY or ACQUIRE THIS BOOK. It's for the inquiring mind who has a working baseline of melodic command on the instrument and yearns for a glimpse into the larger picture.
    A good teacher can tell you ALL about what they can do.
    A great discoverer can give you insight so what they themselves discovered can lead to further discoveries.
    Don't make the mistake of thinking of these books as method books. They are not that; not by a long shot.
    They are almanacs. This is a map room. This is not a guided tour. This is a reference library. This is not a YouTube video. This is an honest outlay of harmonic movement of 3 and 4 part chords for those who DON'T want just a lesson on how to.
    And goldenwave77, the beauty of it is if it's not where you're at, you don't need to even acknowledge its existence.
    It's a discussion in the corner of the library between a small group of enthusiasts who've wondered "Why is my chord choice so stale? Can somebody show me how pianists get such flowing lines?" "Oh they voice lead. They can see lines converging and flowing with each other." "Oh? But you CAN'T do that on guitar. People say the format of the guitar prevents and limits us to drop 2 and walking bass lines." "No it can be done, you can work out the voice leading possibilites. Classical composers do that when writing for guitar. Ever play Bach?" "No but you can't do that in REAL time" " Yes you can if you write it out" "Forget that. I have better things to do, like practice, or have a computer do it" "Well... you can get the almanacs, they're out there" "But do I need to make sense out of it myself?"
    Yes.


    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77 View Post

    It's a little like leading someone to Widener Library at Harvard (5-6 million volumes), and telling them, "Just start reading...you're bound to come across something worthwhile."
    No it's more like teaching someone how to to fish, and a small group of people discover from one set of concepts learning how to fly fish, surf cast, fish with spinners, fish with worms, cast a line of hooks with chum and how to spend a sunny day delighting in a lesson in life under the pretense of fishing. Then the rest of the group turning their backs on the lesson and saying "I don't have time for this, just sell me a fish sandwich"

    The author is not looking to limit your playing with one concept, he's trying to open up the possibilities with a resource.
    Do you know how to get around the changes of a piece off book? Have you ever gotten bored with your options when it comes to playing over a piece? Does it intrigue you that in your comping, the root can move within a set of chords, within the SATB structure of a linear arrangement? Are you fascinated by sounds where you can't identify the chords of yet the harmony is just mysteriously right?
    Well if you aren't in that space, then maybe a raw resource of harmonic possibility is not the best thing at this point.
    Look on this thread:
    Anybody use the Goodchord Voice Leading Books?
    There are some pages and examples, lots of questions and answers. Read it if you're curious and see if it's of interest. I'd be happy to see you there!
    Good luck
    David

  10. #9
    Well, I took your suggestion and went through the thread "Anybody Using the Goodchord Voice Leading Books".

    After reading that thread and the comments in it, I'll steer clear.

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    Goodchord books for sale

    I have posted this offer in the For Sale part of the forum.

  12. #11

    Help Goodrick Almanac of Voice Leading Volume 2 Scan

    Hello guys!

    Could a good Samaritan scan Volume 2 of Mr. Goodrick's Almanacs? We know that these Almanacs will not be republished. It's been 20 years since its publication, and I've heard nothing about it. This material could be building an even greater legacy if it were available to the younger generation of the guitar. Music is a good of humanity, and can not serve petty ideals of profit. Of course, if I could pay for a copy I would pay, just as I paid for "Crative Chordal Harmony" and "The Advancing Guitarrist." But I simply missed the hopes of having a copy of the second volume of the Almanacs. Please, anyone?

  13. #12
    Mick's got a German publisher who's taken on his entire output and catalog. Great news. Things are in the works and I'll let you know.
    I hope to have good news (or books) soon.
    David

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    Mick's got a German publisher who's taken on his entire output and catalog. Great news. Things are in the works and I'll let you know.
    I hope to have good news (or books) soon.
    David
    Thanks David. I'll be one of the first to buy them once they become available again.
    Check out my new book, Essential Skills for the Guitarist on Amazon.

  15. #14
    I may comb through the vol 2 and post some interesting pages on the Almanac thread. I always look for others to post the results of their work with this material. Always interesting to find ambitious adventurists.
    David

  16. #15
    I have them and am willing to part with them. Just think, you can go to triad heaven AND own an original!

    $1,000.00 per volume, non-refundable (of course).


    But seriously, if you want to go to triad heaven, why not see if you can get through Leavitt Volume 3 triads and melodicized triads first before you get into Harmonic Mechanisms or Mr. Goodchord?

    And if you are a jazz guitarist, you may want to ask yourself, "what is the utility of this"? (the ROI so to speak). It's a big investment in hard work, folks. How does it align with the works of Charlie, Wes, Joe, George, Pat and Pat, and John?

    Always look before you leap. IMO.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    And if you are a jazz guitarist, you may want to ask yourself, "what is the utility of this"? (the ROI so to speak). It's a big investment in hard work, folks. How does it align with the works of Charlie, Wes, Joe, George, Pat and Pat, and John?
    maybe you haven't seen the other goodchord threads?
    There have been very realistic expectations expressed by all in these threads regarding their value in terms of ROI etc., even addressing the author's admission that it's a big task for him. No one ever claimed that this was an "efficient" method toward sounding like Wes or Joe.

    How does every thread get reduced to that conversation? How boring could life possibly be?

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by goldenwave77 View Post
    If the guy who wrote this, Goodrick himself, admits that he'll never get around to scratching the surface, where does that lead everyone else?!
    I may be unusual in this respect (not the only one, I'm sure), but if I get one good idea out of a book that improves my playing in some way, I consider that money well spent. I have a book called "Mel Bay's Complete Book of Harmony, Theory, and Voicing." Page 7 revolutionized my understanding of harmony. Just page 7.

    I've gotten other stuff out of that book since, but I'd have paid the cover price just for page 7.

    So, to me, if I could get one good idea out of something like the Goodchord books, I'd consider that worth it.

    I also tried working out a cycle on my own. That was a valuable exercise as well.
    "I'm opposed to picketing, but I don't know to show it." --Mitch Hedberg

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    I have them and am willing to part with them. Just think, you can go to triad heaven AND own an original!

    $1,000.00 per volume, non-refundable (of course).


    But seriously, if you want to go to triad heaven, why not see if you can get through Leavitt Volume 3 triads and melodicized triads first before you get into Harmonic Mechanisms or Mr. Goodchord?

    And if you are a jazz guitarist, you may want to ask yourself, "what is the utility of this"? (the ROI so to speak). It's a big investment in hard work, folks. How does it align with the works of Charlie, Wes, Joe, George, Pat and Pat, and John?

    Always look before you leap. IMO.
    Ha great points Jazzstdnt! I think it's important to make fun of things you don't understand or see the use in. Let's make jazz great again.
    Honestly, I don't think Joe Pass or Wes would have had any use for this material. It's kind of useless in that perspective.
    There are a lot of things we can't imagine in the present world we live in. Mick's work has come out of not being limited by other people's assumptions, and people who do find the great utility in this are those who find their voice despite the limitations of other people's imaginations.
    Count Wayne Krantz, Bill Frisell, Ben Monder are three of many who have used Mick's box of matches to light their own fires.
    If you ask certain questions of your own playing, things like "Where can I go?" "Where can I find the harmonies I feel are there yet are so elusive in my own vocabulary?" "Why do I feel trapped by the uses of harmony I'm steeped in... is there something else?" then one might be inspired to explore.

    There are few sources for rigorous students of possibility. This is one of the big ones.
    We are defined by the questions we ask. Don't judge too harshly others who don't want the same thing as you, that's all.
    David

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    maybe you haven't seen the other goodchord threads?
    There have been very realistic expectations expressed by all in these threads regarding their value in terms of ROI etc., even addressing the author's admission that it's a big task for him. No one ever claimed that this was an "efficient" method toward sounding like Wes or Joe.

    How does every thread get reduced to that conversation? How boring could life possibly be?
    No, I didn't study those ingenious threads today. I bought the books though. Do I owe somebody something here? I don't think so.

    And I went beyond Wes and Joe, didn't I? I traced the historical trajectory of jazz guitar from 1940 until now. Do I need to fill in the blanks with more top drawer player names to make the point? Somehow I don't think it would make a difference to you.

    And you didn't address my Leavitt book 3 challenge to the guitar nerd, guitar completist, triad heaven journey either.

    I'm pretty sure this is about MUSIC, not being a guitar completist mathematician.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    No, I didn't study those ingenious threads today. I bought the books though. Do I owe somebody something here? I don't think so.

    And I went beyond Wes and Joe, didn't I? I traced the historical trajectory of jazz guitar from 1940 until now. Do I need to fill in the blanks with more top drawer player names to make the point? Somehow I don't think it would make a difference to you.

    And you didn't address my Leavitt book 3 challenge to the guitar nerd, guitar completist, triad heaven journey either.

    I'm pretty sure this is about MUSIC, not being a guitar completist mathematician.
    Sorry you're having a bad day. Maybe tomorrow will be better. You've met your quota for sarcasm for today for sure.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    Ha great points Jazzstdnt! I think it's important to make fun of things you don't understand or see the use in. Let's make jazz great again.
    Honestly, I don't think Joe Pass or Wes would have had any use for this material. It's kind of useless in that perspective.
    There are a lot of things we can't imagine in the present world we live in. Mick's work has come out of not being limited by other people's assumptions, and people who do find the great utility in this are those who find their voice despite the limitations of other people's imaginations.
    Count Wayne Krantz, Bill Frisell, Ben Monder are three of many who have used Mick's box of matches to light their own fires.
    If you ask certain questions of your own playing, things like "Where can I go?" "Where can I find the harmonies I feel are there yet are so elusive in my own vocabulary?" "Why do I feel trapped by the uses of harmony I'm steeped in... is there something else?" then one might be inspired to explore.

    There are few sources for rigorous students of possibility. This is one of the big ones.
    We are defined by the questions we ask. Don't judge too harshly others who don't want the same thing as you, that's all.
    David
    Good to hear from you, was expecting something.

    You know, typed words don't convey intent very well sometimes. I was making light, not mocking. And I wasn't "judging" if that means condemning. But I'm pretty sure that I have the right to an opinion.

    Nothing wrong with challenging oneself. But I think that Leavitt's Volume 3 is enough. I think the Berklee level 8 exam is enough on triad cycles. Actually, I think its more than enough.

    Harmonic Mechanisms, Chord Chemistry, Mr. Goodchord are all completist works as far as I'm concerned. That is, if one believes that they need to learn them from stem to stern. Picking up some capability here and there? Thats great, but that's different.

    I'm a pragmatist. We all only have so much time. Nobody wants to hear a human chord machine. Listeners want to hear melodies first and foremost, and yes a few nice harmonies too. That may be bad news for chord completist nerds, buts it's the truth. Remember the old joke?;

    "What's the difference between a blues guitarist and a jazz guitarist? One knows 3 chords and has an audience of 1000, the other knows 1000 chords and has an audience of 3".

    Why did these books go out of print? Is Harmonic Mechanisms still in print? It may be but I don't recall.

    So let's be practical, let's point to some musical examples where the player exploited triad heaven to the max with great musical/artistic results that music lovers have celebrated and rewarded with praise and patronization. The rubber meets the road proof is music, not philosophy.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Good to hear from you, was expecting something.

    You know, typed words don't convey intent very well sometimes. I was making light, not mocking. And I wasn't "judging" if that means condemning. But I'm pretty sure that I have the right to an opinion.

    Nothing wrong with challenging oneself. But I think that Leavitt's Volume 3 is enough. I think the Berklee level 8 exam is enough on triad cycles. Actually, I think its more than enough.

    Harmonic Mechanisms, Chord Chemistry, Mr. Goodchord are all completist works as far as I'm concerned. That is, if one believes that they need to learn them from stem to stern. Picking up some capability here and there? Thats great, but that's different.

    I'm a pragmatist. We all only have so much time. Nobody wants to hear a human chord machine. Listeners want to hear melodies first and foremost, and yes a few nice harmonies too. That may be bad news for chord completist nerds, buts it's the truth. Remember the old joke?;

    "What's the difference between a blues guitarist and a jazz guitarist? One knows 3 chords and has an audience of 1000, the other knows 1000 chords and has an audience of 3".

    Why did these books go out of print? Is Harmonic Mechanisms still in print? It may be but I don't recall.

    So let's be practical, let's point to some musical examples where the player exploited triad heaven to the max with great musical/artistic results that music lovers have celebrated and rewarded with praise and patronization. The rubber meets the road proof is music, not philosophy.
    Sheesh. Enough with the passive aggressive, snarky way of talking about it. Have the conversation or don't.

    Adults can have conversations and talk about things, even debate, but CHILDREN call names and speak of another's PERSON or their INTERESTS with the kind of disdain implicit in terms like "triad heaven". This was a straightforward conversation between people who are actually INTERESTED in the topic. It's fine to discuss it, but to come in and snipe is straight-up trolling BS. Let your conversation and arguments stand on their own without the playground barbs.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Sheesh. Enough with the passive aggressive, snarky way of talking about it. Have the conversation or don't.

    Adults can have conversations and talk about things, even debate, but CHILDREN call names and speak of another's PERSON or their INTERESTS with the kind of disdain implicit in terms like "triad heaven". This was a straightforward conversation between people who are actually INTERESTED in the topic. It's fine to discuss it, but to come in and snipe is straight-up trolling BS. Let your conversation and arguments stand on their own without the playground barbs.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
    Ya see, I think that you're the one always trolling for drama young man. I'm not looking for drama and debate, but I do have an opinion.

    But I digress.

    Yes triad heaven is what I'd call Van Eps' work. In my opinion it's overkill. So what? Same for Ted Greene. In my opinion there are so many impractical and hence useless voicings and grips. If everybody needed all those to play, or even master, the instrument, hardly anyone would bother with the instrument. Some people just take things to the extreme, and that's how I see these works to varying degrees, not complete degrees.

    Berklee Press has a new book (relatively) and it's called The Practical Jazz Guitarist. In my opinion, it's about time.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    While playing improvised music may be appealing to some, being practical is not the end game for many. For you, it obviously is. There will be nothing but respect from all of us for that propensity in you. For many, however, improvised music, the challenge of real time composition, the process of synthesizing an honest, challenging and fresh statement in the preponderance of cliche and rote phrases we find ourselves trapped by, THAT is a noble cause.
    Personally, I find it a bargain to try for a new idea and only succeed half the time. Music is a synthesis of many things for me, and 12 notes (I cheat on this, I play fretless) is a huge landscape to explore. I never compromise on the ideal of making music, but I love the new directions that something like the almanacs offer. It's the closest thing I've come to achieving control of individual voicings within a chord progression.
    I'll assume you're familiar with this material, so you know these are exercises in ear training, and training your hands to perceive movement in 4 voices. You can see Bill Evans, Ed Bikert, Pat Metheny, Bill Frisell all had their own take on this topic, and all were informed and limited by the existing practical canon of knowledge.
    These works, in the hands of a student who cares to open a huge unprejudiced lexicon of the 12 notes (You'll hear Bach in those pages, as you'll hear Ben Monder's music) doesn't get practical application, per se, but raw frontier of possibility that, through time and practice, will become a musical identity individual and unheard of. If you know your jazz, you make it swing. If you know your history, you make it respectful of the deepest traditions of jazz. If you know your theory, you make it work on any changes. If you know your ear, you make it profoundly and elusively beautiful. All these things are the challenge of any original jazz musician of quality.
    Another thing I've found in great musicians I've had the honor of knowing and working with: The make their own toolset and rules, and they never belittle others on that precarious path.
    You can like what you like, and practicality is an admirable quality. I happen to see an exciting aspect to the music I play, and that comes from a sense of exploration. I've found Mick's books invaluable in indescribable ways. In the time I've spent playing with him, there's been a wealth of knowledge that came from just being exposed to what he has extracted from this.
    Scofield has acknowledged a huge debt to Mick's teachings, and a lot of it was being told not to sound like anyone but yourself when using practical tools.
    Good lesson there.
    David

    Attachment 54722
    From the current Jazz Times issue


    Might not be your cup of tea but this is an example of beauty and structure.
    Mick's commentary of the form of the tune:
    "Ben,Thanks for mentioning Summer Band Camp in your article in the recent Jazz Times mag. The chords are actually based on a 12 tone row. Look at the roots
    [not necessarily the bass notes] C Ab Gb D Bb E Db F B G Eb A. There are 8 Maj 7ths and 4 7ths. All the Major 7ths taks lydian and all the 7ths take Mixolydian.
    This shows why every new chord seems like you haven't seen it in a long time! [24 bars, in fact]
    Best Regards,
    Mick"
    It's not philosophy at all, but it is thoughtful
    David
    I get it. To each his own. And that CD sounded just fine to me. Sounded like Metheny to a significant degree, at least to my ears.

    But I am talking about something a little closer to the ground. Impractical voicings and grips being the biggest issue (grips that no one uses hardly, and I'm not talking about myself).

    I like what Joe Pass said, "if the chord is too difficult to play, play another one", or words to that effect. Who cares? and who knows the difference? Not the audience/listeners in the overwhelming majority of cases.

    And then there was Pat Martino responding to someone quizzing him about a lot of chords and he said something like "you play piano, but I play the horn" (both were guitarists of course). The truth is, most people, jazz fans included, relate to the approach of the players that I listed more than a chord wizard.

    So what do you think of the texts from John Thomas', Bret Wilmott, Bloom Schools solo chords (ala Wes chord melody like voicings), and Rick Peckham and his modal voicings?

    In other words, what's missing for the student beyond those? (and Leavitt of course). Does the typical jazz guitar student need Chord Chemistry, Harmonic Mechanisms, Mr. Goodchord? I don't think we do. These works cause no harm of course, but I think that they're areas of specialization. And for that matter, specializations that listeners/audiences are not clamoring for.

    I'll freely admit, the notion of the Practical Jazz Guitarist resonates with me.

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Ya see, I think that you're the one always trolling for drama young man. I'm not looking for drama and debate, but I do have an opinion.

    But I digress.

    Yes triad heaven is what I'd call Van Eps' work. In my opinion it's overkill. So what? Same for Ted Greene. In my opinion there are so many impractical and hence useless voicings and grips. If everybody needed all those to play, or even master, the instrument, hardly anyone would bother with the instrument. Some people just take things to the extreme, and that's how I see these works to varying degrees, not complete degrees.

    Berklee Press has a new book (relatively) and it's called The Practical Jazz Guitarist. In my opinion, it's about time.
    If you go over to the gear boards on this forum and go to some Fender or Gibson thread and start pounding on people that enjoy those brands, you're going to be accused of being a troll, and with very good reason. Because that's what it's called . You don't have to be a fan of EVERYTHING, but you're beyond adding anything to this conversation.

    You'd be on-topic if this were a thread on "Fastest way to make money playing jazz", "Most efficient ways to sound like Joe ,Wes or Pat etc.", "List of best books for learning chords" etc. This is not a debate thread. There's a distinction.

    You're derailing and trolling.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  27. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    Mick's got a German publisher who's taken on his entire output and catalog. Great news. Things are in the works and I'll let you know.
    I hope to have good news (or books) soon.
    David
    I sure would like to be able to order these from Amazon. I hope that will be possible.
    There's no money above the fifth fret.

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    If you go over to the gear boards on this forum and go to some Fender or Gibson thread and start pounding on people that enjoy those brands, you're going to be accused of being a troll, and with very good reason. Because that's what it's called . You don't have to be a fan of EVERYTHING, but you're beyond adding anything to this conversation.

    You'd be on-topic if this were a thread on "Fastest way to make money playing jazz", "Most efficient ways to sound like Joe ,Wes or Pat etc.", "List of best books for learning chords" etc. This is not a debate thread. There's a distinction.

    You're derailing and trolling.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
    Not at all. If we were to be as narrow as you suggest then we would simply answer the OP about where he can get the book and no we aren't going to help him photocopy it etc., and then we would be done, goodnight. Robot like.

    But fortunately - forums are for discussion and exchange of ideas. These books? They are a text like series. I have purchased them. The price of admission affords me ample latitude in offering commentary, including critical commentary. Same as for any other expensive textbook that I've invested in. They are tools and should be evaluated by students and teachers alike with critical thinking. I have been both a music student and teacher in my time, and have devoted plenty of time and money in my area of interest. I try to make it a point to think critically about any materials that a music student invests his time and money on, especially when that music student is me.

  29. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    But fortunately - forums are for discussion and exchange of ideas.
    And name-calling and passive aggressive barbs.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  30. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    These books? They are a text like series. I have purchased them. The price of admission affords me ample latitude in offering commentary, including critical commentary.
    Cool!
    Let's start with this. Seriously. Let's talk about the expectations you had in purchasing them. Let's talk about what it is that the convergence of voice led proficiency and the traditions of harmonic movement in the jazz genre can gain by such study, if at all.
    I'd admit that Joe Pass didn't voice lead in the same way that Ed Bikert, or Bill Evans, or Keith Jarrett or Fred Hersch did... so does the coexistence of two differing attitudes of chord progression negate one in favour of the other?
    It's harder for guitarist to realize the subtleties of moving voice leading chord movement. Does that mean it's impractical to the point that others besides yourself should feel put off by it? Is there a value in relatively unapproachable material when there are those who find the value of it... even if it's just a handful of musicians?

    There's nothing dismissive about taking on a challenge. I feel like you've dismissed the content of these books because they didn't fit your already established concept of what and how you study. In a word, you were prejudiced. Fine. They were not practical to you. They are/were to me. But I do hope we'll see the fruits of those who have taken on non traditional sources. It really is the best and strongest testament to the spirit of jazz as it came to be.

    David

  31. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    And name-calling and passive aggressive barbs.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
    "Name calling" refers to persons, not concepts. I have called no names.

  32. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post
    There might be a simple reason for that. That sound is Mick's sound. He created a style of playing, legato, chordal and scale based and he was Gary Burton's guitarist when Pat was a kid, heard Mick and set about to assimilate the sounds of the genre from Mick and Swallow. That's just a matter of history. Pat is the child of the sound Mick is the father of.

    Yeah, I always suspected as much. Too much of a coincidence.

    So where did Pat pick up the sliding half-step trill as opposed to hammered-on/pulled-off? I was thinking how unique that was in jazz guitar but then recalled that Wes did it a lot, but with his octaves, and then remembered Pat copied him so much when in high school that his older bandmates told him to make his own voice.

  33. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Yeah, I always suspected as much. Too much of a coincidence.

    So where did Pat pick up the sliding half-step trill as opposed to hammered-on/pulled-off? I was thinking how unique that was in jazz guitar but then recalled that Wes did it a lot, but with his octaves, and then remembered Pat copied him so much when in high school that his older bandmates told him to make his own voice.
    Listen to Steve Swallow's bass playing. It's Swallow's sound.
    David

  34. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz View Post


    Why do you act like Joe Pass defines the parameters of jazz for all players. Can't you imagine there are different approaches that create the world of jazz guitar?

    I've noticed something about this group, this forum to some extent. It's always the staunch defenders of some perceived ideal that is the bebop tradition that feels the compulsion to make disparaging and "humorous" remarks about things they consider off their radar. Why is that. WTF?


    David
    I don't act like that about Joe Pass, and I don't think like that about Joe Pass, lol. That' TWICE in this thread where my examples were cherry picked because I didn't list 100 players names to make my point. We're talking past each other.

    I too have noticed something about this forum, myself included. When person A offers an opinion that includes something less than fawning praise of person B's hero, idol or friend, person B gets quite bent out of shape, and objectivity goes out the window. Emotions and resentment overtake objectivity. I realize that the author is a friend of yours so I'll stop opining about the utility of what I feel is hyper-research into guitar chord study. Have a nice day.

  35. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Have a nice day.
    Having one. Thanks
    David

  36. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    When person A offers an opinion that includes something less than fawning praise of person B's hero, idol or friend, person B gets quite bent out of shape, and objectivity goes out the window. Emotions and resentment overtake objectivity. I realize that the author is a friend of yours so I'll stop opining about the utility of what I feel is hyper-research into guitar chord study. Have a nice day.
    Those completist nerds! It's like you can't even have an objective, honest, adult discussion about their $1000.00 method for achieving triad nirvana without them getting offended.

    Defensive completist nerds...

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  37. #36
    I love books that take a few ideas and develop them to the enth degree.
    The Goodchord series certainly does that, exploring scale based close voice leading.
    The Brett Willmott book does the same with drop 2 superimpositions as does
    the Van Eps series with detailed fingering transitions between scale based harmony and later
    other concepts to expand on moving voices. While each of these could have with been presented
    with fewer pages, I'm ok with the fact that they weren't.

    I like this one quote from my earliest jazz guitar teacher, Ted Dunbar:
    "For every page you read in a music book, write ten of your own" (paraphrased)
    Whatever way you choose to study, be engaged.

  38. #37
    That's a nice quote, but many books have been written by now, from a few pages to volumes so thick you could break a window with them.

    Time management is a critical skill set for a (reasonably) well run life.

  39. #38
    The best example of "Goodchord in Action" that I can think of is Ben Monder. He seemingly took the tongue-in-cheek advice in "The Advancing Guitarist" to "go try every combination" quite literally.

    If your goal is to sound like Wes or Joe Pass, then I agree that Voice-Leading Books are very much overkill. If your goal is to push the harmonic possibilities of the instrument to their limit, then they can very much be a great asset.

  40. #39
    The music combined with personal imagination is always the best source to uncover the magical
    nuance of organized sound. But, without the info in my first guitar book, Alfred #1, which had a
    picture correlating piano notes to open strings, I wouldn't have known how to tune my guitar.

    Steve Coleman often talks about how for what he is trying to do with composition/improvisation,
    notation is a far too quantized model, although he reads well and notates when he has to.

    So yes, what you are trying to do is central to what might help you get there within an efficient time frame.

  41. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by dasein View Post
    The best example of "Goodchord in Action" that I can think of is Ben Monder. He seemingly took the tongue-in-cheek advice in "The Advancing Guitarist" to "go try every combination" quite literally.

    If your goal is to sound like Wes or Joe Pass, then I agree that Voice-Leading Books are very much overkill. If your goal is to push the harmonic possibilities of the instrument to their limit, then they can very much be a great asset.

    Not all voice leading books, not at all. And Wes, Joe and other jazz guitarists most certainly used/use voice leading, for heaven's sake.

    Goal being to "push the harmonic possibilities of the instrument to their limit"? No, that wouldn't be the goal of mine, or most. Music first, esoterica second.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 07-22-2018 at 12:45 PM.

  42. Glad to hear about the new publisher! These books aren't for everyone (nor were they ever marketed as such), but I'm happy that they will be available to those looking to explore the possibilities therein. Any chance the "Falling Grace" book is part of the deal? I assume the books will be available in the US, but I've got some gigs in Austria/Germany coming up in January so I can shop over there as well...


    PK

  43. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    TruthHertz........Glad to see the Goodchord material being published again! I still work out of my “vintage” volumes... was wondering if there was anything new that’s in the works?

  44. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Toddep View Post
    TruthHertz........Glad to see the Goodchord material being published again! I still work out of my “vintage” volumes... was wondering if there was anything new that’s in the works?
    Not in the plans. Recently Mick handed me a bag, it was full of volumes of material I haven't begun to comb through. In there are entire chapters of stuff from the Creative Chordal Harmony book. That book was published by Berklee Press and they put a page limit on their books, which is one reason they have no interest in much of Mick's works as they're by nature exhaustive works of specific aspects in harmony/melody/rhythm.
    When Tim and Mick put that out, there was enough material that they had to "axe" to meet the page ceiling to make at least one or two more chapters.

    I was thinking about the value of theoretical works and the role they play in the evolution of the large expanding genre we think of as jazz. In the late 70's I studied with a teacher, Roland Wiggins, who taught at U Mass Amherst while Max Roach and Archie Shepp were mainstays there. He also taught at Hampshire College where I met him. I remember being fascinated but also vexed about how practical the things he taught were; I was just beginning to learn to play improvised music and that in itself was a challenge to work within the conventional framework.
    We studied melodic permutations that could be played on piano, but I couldn't make a connection with how they'd be used on guitar. I had this same experience with Yusef Lateef years later when he told me about applications of clusters in compositional contexts. This was so far from anything that Mel Bay talked about that they were different languages.
    It wasn't until I listened to Coltrane's recordings he did with Miles, just before he left Miles, it's a recording they did in Stockholm, that I heard how one man wrestled some of that material into a musical form that could be applied linearally. And it turns out when Coltrane was exploring new directions and wanted to find possibilities of conceptual and practical application that fit into something he felt yet hadn't heard yet, he looked up Roland when he was based in Philly.
    There will always be those who see the world as others handed it to them, and define the boundries by the conventions given to them, and there will be those who surround themselves in something never heard before. Jazz is one genre of creative exploration that not only embraces, but has an active place for the people who want to find articulate forms that exist beyond imagination.

    Too, I remember hearing about the resistance Trane met, and Ornette, and Mary Halvorson, and Andrew Hill... and each one of them had inspirations, mentors and teachers who pointed the way outside of the safety of the known world of jazz at the time (Andrew Hill studied with Paul Hindemuth).

    As far as figuring out why some people are so drawn to the unknown, and why some people dismiss the unfamiliar, I guess that's for the social scientists to figure out.

    David

  45. #44
    In today's hurry-up world people want return on investment, and in this case the investment in time and hard work. For the student of jazz guitar; (1) if there are tangible and easily observable returns and (2) if those outcomes are desirable and inspirational - then they will be pursued.

    With regards to Van Eps and Leavitt all those triad studies can presumably result in the ability to conceive of, and then play or compose the way that they did.

    The question is, do the majority of newcomers find those outcomes desirable and inspirational? I think we would have to ask them.

    Of note, Berklee refers to itself as a contemporary music school, not a jazz studies program (unlike their less "progressive" competitors who have yet to "get it"?), and the only history course they offer online beyond traditional music history is History of Rock. No more history of jazz. I don't believe that's agenda driven, I believe that it's reflective of demand. I find that a bit depressing, but they didn't ask me.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 07-23-2018 at 09:13 AM.

  46. #45
    I just don't see beginners seeking out this huge out- of- print work. I think continuing to address "beginners getting distracted by it" is just seeking to tackle a made-up problem which doesn't exist.

    I mean, I'm really happy for all of you guys making millions of dollars playing jazz, but I had always assumed that most here were in it mostly for themselves anyway and were seeking all kind of various nerdy ways to pursue it for its own enjoyment. Anyway, for me, the most ENJOYABLE aspects of learning the instrument for have been in what others might actually call "wasted pursuits".

    But the things which make my style unique as a player - and understanding that that's mostly OUTSIDE of jazz - are a culmination of all those pursuits. I wouldn't do anything differently, I don't think, if I had to do it over. All of the triad stuff I did a year or two ago pays great benefits OUTSIDE of jazz. Acoustic instrumental music in non- jazz styles is mostly NOT four- note chords anyway. But in terms of ROI? It's still mostly for ME . The parts that benefit my "playing out" are mostly just residual benefits - nothing like a proportional return on time spent , but again, I'm not only playing for everyone ELSE only. The "everyone else" part somewhat justifies it, but it's all just an excuse to do what *I* want to do. If you can't play for yourself in the first place, at least to a degree, what's the point?

    I like Walter Anderson's perspective on art: that the RETAIL/consumer part of creating , for the artist , is merely the MEANS toward their being able to then pursue a more PURE art , WITHOUT consideration for money etc. I feel much the same way about gigs which pay the bills, and for me, the JAZZ part is mostly for myself. That's just me. Different strokes for others...

    Last time I got my guitar set up I pulled it out of the case to check it out and played some of my usual BS. The tech is a really fun, wise old dude, and he replied with a laugh: "There's no money past the third fret . Ha!. Anything above the third fret is for yourself".

    It's funny, on acoustic at least, he's mostly right , at least as a proportion of time spent.

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

  47. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    ... I had always assumed that most here were in it mostly for themselves anyway and seeking all kind of various nerdy ways to pursue it for its own enjoyment. Anyway, for me, the most ENJOYABLE aspects of learning the instrument for me have actually been in what others might actually call "wasted pursuits".
    If you're anywhere near the cultural penumbra of New York jazz, you know most of the new cats write their own music. Most of these players are searching for fresh sources to stake their own ground and thrive. It's the young players, many of them well versed in the most rigorous theory til it's thoroughly steeped, but finding equal balance in the other arts too, that find their expression in the new. These are the under the radar players who not only seek out inspiration in others who've found unexpected perspectives, but from my own experience, they don't WANT to live in the grounds that are well trodden by the mainstream.
    This is a small subset of lesser known players, but they're a vital community. Names like Ben Monder, David Binney, Max Light, Mike Bono, Dan Weiss, John Escreet, Wayne Krantz... not really names on pedestals, but guys with their feet on the ground going new places. For all of them, and us in the minority of this forum, it's exciting to look at anything that points to a new direction, even if it comes as a frontier that takes a LOT of work to tame.

    In the end, you may wind up with nothing. Originality is a lifetime pursuit; the process is deeply satisfying. But you will also realistically wind up with something nobody else came up with. Some people are predisposed to that way of thinking.
    It's with them I find a good hang with, in life and the forum.

    David

  48. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    los angeles
    Posts
    881
    this is a special forum..many here have studied and some have worked with musicians that have influenced the direction of jazz and music in general. I and others on here have studied with ted greene..now the thing that I realized - I was not only watching everything he did..but he was watching what I played. He stopped me in mid play and said.."..hey man who said you could do that..!" with a bit of a stern voice..I froze..he smiled..I said well it sounded OK to me..and he confirmed..If you like the way it sounds go with it..if it breaks rules that are written or even if I told you..go with it..he then played my progression and added some sweetness to it..I still play that progression to this day..

    Playing to pay the rent can be fun or hard work..the fun part is when the listeners don't have to work to understand what your doing..thus the beauty of blues and popular rock tunes..and getting to the essence of rock music can be as much work as complex jazz progressions.

    I was always fascinated by jazz..how the musicians made strange sounding chords and solo lines work-how did they know how to do this..and as I grew musically and studied and explored the extreme ends of harmony..I now can use that knowledge in my own compositions..some like them..some don't..I hear the Beatles had the same reactions..

    I am glad there are musical pioneers that share their knowledge in any form to anyone hungry enough to dive deeper-as the pearls are not on the shoreline..while some may find such endeavors a waste of time for me it is the true expression of the undiscovered sounds that are possible..worth my time and effort to embrace and ingest these studies
    play well ...
    wolf

  49. #48
    I think harmony has been well explored. And, guitarists have not led, in particular.

    So, exploring the possibilities of tonal harmony on the guitar? There are 4 fingers and 6 strings. The problem domain is finite.

    In LA we used to call the BS grips "out to lunch" chords. The human hand has not changed. There is such a thing as folly. There is such a thing as a fool's errand. Segovia had to educate Ponce on as much.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 07-23-2018 at 11:44 PM.

  50. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Earth
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    I enjoy the search for the lost chord, which resides somewhere in the Goodrick Almanacs.

  51. #50
    I think that we would benefit much more from etudes. Exercises are great, we need exercises, lots of exercises in fact, but they only go so far.

    In jazz there us a huge gap between exercises (musical calisthenics) and music, improvised music for the most part.

    If some of the more advanced harmonic concepts would be applied to highly musical etudes they would probably bear more fruit. The problem with that of course, is that great etudes don't come easy. They require compositional talent and discipline, and if we're honest we admit that most don't have that in great supply. Hence, it's much easier to create exercises.

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