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Aimee plays piano and often works in a drumerless trio with a bassist and guitar player. Plus, she's a big Oscar Peterson fan and loved the way he and Herb Ellis played together.
Can a guitarist and pianist comp together? Short answer: no.
(Before anyone can freak out about her driving and filming, she's doing the long talk in a parked car. A previous video of hers, "The Day I Put My Real Books Away" upset several people because in it she was driving and recording herself talk at the same time...)
Last edited by MarkRhodes; 03-11-2017 at 09:59 AM.
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03-10-2017 10:32 PM
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I don't mean to be a rude to comment without watching the video, but Gary Burton has interesting comments about piano, vibes, and guitar all comping together and sounding great, if they are listening well.
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It's true, at least in IMO that two players can't do stick-and-jab comping at the same time.
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
But, it is not true, IME, that guitar and piano can't comp together with each making a contribution.
Rather, it depends on the situation.
In groove based music where the comping is phrased with a clave of some sort, it's fairly straightfoward. One player plays the pulse, the other plays ornamentation. Or, both play pulse, but sparsely, to try to create a single pattern out of the two instruments.
If there's a situation in which the pianist is playing stick-and-jab, the guitarist can outline the chord changes by playing legato or find something else that works with whatever the pianist is doing. If the pianist is randomly reharmonizing on the fly, it may be really difficult.
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Most of my gigs are with piano, vibes, accordion, etc. Some other chordal player. It absolutely can (and should) be done. It generally takes a while for me to understand another chordal player's approach well enough until we've figured out the boundaries but having the option of no comping, 1 instrument comping, or 2 is very advantageous. Takes a lot of sensitivity to pull off.
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Hmmm...."can" be done, OK...but "should" be done? I disagree. One should always err on the side of underplaying and staying out of the way. You don't need a million different voices playing all at once. You can have three horns solo at the same time and it can sound great, but that doesn't mean it "should" be done the other 95% of the time. Originally Posted by drbhrb
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"Laying out is cool. Don't be afraid to lay out". (from the video)
Damn straight!
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I haven't watched the video so not sure fair to comment. But, 2 notes on the G and D. Everything else is gravy
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I was taught to comp that way too. 3 and 7 on the D and G strings -- a lot of the time. One, andoftwo. Repeat. Originally Posted by deselby
I haven't watched the video so not sure fair to comment. But, 2 notes on the G and D. Everything else is gravy
Works fine and is exactly the right thing to do at times.
But.
Depending on what the bass and piano are doing and the register of the soloist, it can make sense to play your two note voicings on the G and B strings. That "charleston" rhythm may need some adjustment. The lower strings risk making mud with all the mid-low frequency energy, particular from an archtop which might be on the edge of some feedback.
Then, there's the issue of contributing something more than a background pulse which the piano may be drowning out anyway. But it gets so situation-specific that I don't know where to begin to discuss it.
I guess you have to begin by figuring out if you're going primarily to play pulse vs ornamentation. Then, there's a decision about legato vs staccato chords. Then there's placement of the chords within the bar. I think that anticipating the chord changes by an eighth and not holding your legato chords too long
can work. Phrasing with horn backgrounds can work too.
All these decisions may be dictated by the rest of the rhythm section. And, it's perfectly possible that there's really no space for a guitar part and you're better off laying out until opportunity knocks (like a bad output cable from the keyboard).
There's always the same fundamental question. Are you really contributing something? Or would everybody else be happier with piano only and splitting your share of the fee?
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"No, they don't listen, the piano players"
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Exactly. Any instrumental combination can work if the players are MUSICIANS (read listen, first and foremost)---or be equally brutal if they don't/can't/won't. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
As to the OP: in my years I'd have to say let 'em have it---they have a lotta keys and usually are gonna take it anyway. Play some 4/4---or get in the 'cracks', the open spaces. A little octave high up at the end of a phrase for support and punctuation.
Piano is traditionally the leading (dominant) instrument in a band, no matter who's the titular leader---or what they play or sing. But sometimes pianists in the know will let the guitarist comp for a chorus or more. I especially like it when they lay out during a bass solo and let me comp: it's a change of color for listeners, guitar is more homogeneous and blends better with a bass (also with a high-hat).
You scope out and read ANY situation ahead of the game, then react to what they are putting down. That's real listening, and can save lots of unneeded bandstand top-heaviness and personal aggravation...
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Points:
Laying out is cool
Yes, fucking talk to each other
Listen to Oscars and Herb. If there was space for Herb to play with Oscar, there's space for anybody. Comp! It means accompany, learn how to make someone else sound good or shut up.
"Don't just play something, sit there!"
Jim Hall
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There's a story (from the Barney Kessel bio) about Barney's first gig with Oscar and Ray Brown. Barney had a field day, did whatever he wanted. Later, Ray kidded Oscar about letting Barney take over the band. The next night, and thereafter, Oscar made clear who was boss. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
As for Herb and Oscar, I love them together. (Joe Pass did some nice work with Oscar too.) Herb said in an interview that he enjoyed comping and that was why he was good at it. He could generate some heat for Oscar to blow over, as in this case. (I think there are 5-6 comping choruses of blues here that could serve any guitarist well.)
And here's a case where a lot of bongo-y comping was called for. (Barney Kessel would do this too. Herb does it during a duet with Joe Pass on "Joe's Blues.")
Last edited by MarkRhodes; 03-29-2017 at 09:54 AM.
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I like these Aimee Nolte videos. Good stuff.
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Originally Posted by gersdal
Glad to hear it, Gersdal. She's put in a lot of work for a long time and her enthusiasm is contagious. (And her playfulness suits me, though I know it draws frowns from some.)
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Sort of semantics, but if it can be done well it should be done at least at some point throughout the gig. Just like if you have 3 horns that can play together well at the same time it would be a shame to not take advantage of that once or twice in a night. Offer contrast - as I said in my post even if you have multiple comping instruments there should be some points where no one is comping. It just expands the palette you have to work with, which requires an even higher level of musicianship to handle. Originally Posted by coolvinny
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Here's a nice example I came across of a guitar comping for the piano...
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Cool. Essentially they do what Aimee Nolte is saying. The guitar comp very predictable all the time, and the pianist can play stabs when he want to. Actually the piano doubles the guitar rhythm quite a lot. Not the standard Freddy Green style rhythm, but same type of comping (many would call it playing rhythm rather than comping).
Originally Posted by jasaco
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I guess he's playing something like this (top line).
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Who is the guitarist and what guitar is that? Both sound great. Originally Posted by gersdal
Notably, he never varies that comping pattern. That way, he doesn't get in the way of the groove created by the piano. OTOH, I wonder if there might be some better way to contribute to the group. Since Gene Harris' style fills a lot of space, perhaps it's remarkable that the guitarist found anything which works well. Also, to the guitarist's credit, I don't think that comping pattern, in that context, at that tempo - is easy to play. His time is solid. And he soloed with his thumb.
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Diana Krall frequently works with guitarists. I think this is a good example:
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Don't know about the guitar but the guitarist is Scottish Jim Mullen - a great and underrated player. BTW, I think it's mostly Mullen who sounds great, which he does whatever guitar he's playing. He's given some interviews in which he modestly underplays his talent quite a lot, saying that he's self taught and have a lot of bad habits in his technique he wouldn't recommend to young upcoming guitarists. He also says that he never learned to use a pick and therefore uses his thumb. Whatever, he gets an awful lot out of those "bad habits" and judging from those interviews, he seems to be a nice and earthy person too. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Last edited by oldane; 04-06-2017 at 04:49 PM.
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Take a look at Chick Corea's thoughts on this. It's posted under Improvisation.
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The Chick Corea piece is nice---certainly "sound advice" about playing with other musicians---but there's not so much as a syllable in it about how a guitarist and pianist might share comping duties. Originally Posted by Larry Feldman
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Is it just me or is there a touch of Jack Black in "School of Rock" about Nolte's videos ?. (Me!....ba boo de daah...)
I think it depends on the desired effect,
Compare Oscar Peterson's P/G/B trio with Lennie Tristano's.
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It may help to remember that what Aimee is talking about here is not groups that have played together for years (such as the Oscar Peterson Trio) but rather, how do a pianist and guitarist who do NOT normally work together work well together? A lot of jazz gigs call for people who don't regularly play together to play together. If the pianist and guitarist don't know each other, how will they work out the comping duties?
On this subject, Count Basie spent a few weeks rehearsing Freddie Green before Freddie toured with the band. They had to figure out a way----and o boy, did they!---to both play without getting in each another's way. It took some doing. But I don't think Freddie would have worked as well with Ellington, whose piano style was busier than Basie's.
I think Joe Pass (in a clip posted above) knew whereof he spoke when he said, with a laugh, "Pianists don't listen!" That is not always true but if you get a gig with a pianist you don't know and haven't heard, the smart money would be on "You're going to have to adjust to him because he's not worried about adjusting to you."
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