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I've joined a band (drums, bass, keys, gtr, vox and 4 horns) playing a variety of swing music but including a number of Buble arrangements as well as some older stuff from Sinatra to Louis Jordan and Duke Ellington etc.
It's very new for me as a self-taught blues/rock guy who's been dabbling in jazz for a while but not in this particular territory. My main source of comping ideas up to now has been the Mike Di Liddo book in the Jamey Aebersold series and they don't seem particularly useful in this context. I'm also for the first time working from written charts. Those who know this material will know that some of the charts are pretty involved for a newbie like me. The band is hoping to debut in a couple of months so I'm looking at a lot of work and a steep learning curve. Having tried to work through some of the charts I'll confess I'm feeling a bit daunted and worrying that I've bitten off more than I can chew.
I've ordered the Charlton Johnson book (Jazz Rhythm Guitar for Swing and Big Band Styles) from Amazon and while waiting for it to arrive have found an online PDF which I don't feel bad about using because I've paid for the book. On the face of it this might simplify the process in the medium term, but in the short term it means getting familiar with new chord shapes, because these are using primarily the lower strings whereas the Di Liddo comping style uses primarily the top 4.
One question that's troubling me a bit is, this: the Johnson book seems very focused on "old school" swing: is its approach still valid for more modern arrangements like the Buble? Can people recommend any other sources that might or suggest anything that might speed up the process.?
Last edited by Ozymandias; 02-17-2017 at 03:07 PM.
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Don't forget to listen to the music you want to play! a book is ok but your ears can tell you a lot about the style and your role in a band like that.
all the best
Tim
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There's a great site devoted to the playing of Freddie Green. Treasure trove.
The Freddie Green Web Site
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When you say Modern Big Band, do you just mean the Buble type "everything old is new again" style or actual modern big band stuff? Because that style of playing is a good deal different.
If it's just the former, brush up on the swing stuff. Do a lot of listening, check out that Freddie Green website, and watch James Chirillo's vids on youtube.
One and Two notes is your bread and butter, and simplify your chord changes if your chart is basically reflecting piano plus horn arrangements.
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Well you've already gotten responses from Mark Rhodes, Tim Lerch and Jeff Matz -- that's about as good as it gets!
Not sure I have a lot to add but I have been playing with a "little" big band (6 horns) for the past couple of years. Like Mr. B said coordinating with the keyboard player is going to be key. Personally I like playing straight-up rhythm guitar, Freddie Green style. The best keyboard player I worked with let me have the chords and he just played tinkly little fills and complementary figures. Then we got another keyboard player who needed to play the chords and I found myself focusing on supplementing the drummer by accenting what he was doing on the snare and hat with one or two-note "chords".
With a group that size it's really a challenge to find your place. Personally I think it's okay if there are some songs that feature the guitar more prominently and others where the audience isn't sure if you're even plugged into anything. Try to think like a producer and ask yourself what each song needs. Good luck, it's really a lot of fun if the players are decent.
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Think of the guitar as a percussion instrument. Your role is more rhythmic than harmonic.
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Thanks for the input guys - useful and much appreciated.
When I say "modern" I just mean to separate out the Buble type stuff from older school. A few years ago I played bass in a swing band but that was more a kind of "jumpin jive" thing, Louis Jordan, Cab Calloway, Ray Charles/New Orleans - generally simpler music. We didn't have a guitar player. Some of the Buble/Ellington/Basie arrangements we're doing are a step-up in complexity/sophistication from that.
As for listening to the music I'm a massive Sinatra fan and like a bit of Tony Bennet, Diana Krall etc so I'm pretty familar with the style. The Buble stuff is less familiar to me but the singer in the band is a fan.
The project is nothing ambitious, just a chance for a bunch of guys who like jazz but who are mainly playing other styles to have a bit of fun and maybe play half a dozen gigs a year.
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What Tony says. I found myself pretty much in your position two years ago. The first thing I did was check out the Freddie Green voicings but omit the low E string because, as the bass player said, we've already got two bass players". The pianist indeed takes a lot of space, so I've found myself doing four-to-the-bar stuff on the middle strings for the swing numbers, sometimes even single-note stuff.
Don't try to play all the chord extensions. Stick to the 3 and 7 on the G and D string for a start, except when really needed. add a few extra notes on the B string, when possible. Keep with drums and bass, and get out of the piano player's way. As I got deeper into the charts, I learned so much about voicings, what to play and what to leave out, and about extensions that I didn't know they existed. And sometimes I get away with the real weird stuff (Wah-wah pedal on "It Don't Mean A Thing"), just because that fills a gap and sounds cool.
Hope that helps, Stephan
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Thanks for that Stephan. Interesting that you're omitting the E string.
When I first started working on this stuff I basically looked at the charts and tried to work out parts for myself. I wasn't playing all the extensions, partly because it wasn't physically possible to play them all, but I was trying to capture the flavour of the extensions. That involved a lot of work just because of the harmonic complexity of the written arrangements. I was also making the assumption that I could do what I could do in small group comping in terms of substitutions etc.
I then read some stuff online about the Freddie Green approach and realised I was way overcomplicating things. I realised that a Freddie Green type approach would involve a learning curve to start with, because it's using a bunch of shapes I don't ordinarily use, but would surely give me an easier route once I got past that. I've been trying to apply the principles in the Charlton Johnson book, which arrived on Saturday.
Omitting the E string could speed up the process - I feel I've got a lot to learn in a short time and it all helps. Most of the rest of the guys in the band are experienced at sight reading this stuff, and they probably have no inkling that there is any difficulty for the guitar player - they probably assume that since I'm reasonably comfortable soloing on rhythm changes or jazz standards playing a 4 in the bar rhythm part is a cinch. Not for me it isn't.
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Part of it is the tone of different instruments. If you're playing an acoustic archtop, you might be able to get away with playing that sixth string because the timbre is different. But an electric guitar, probably not.
Also important to note that often in this style you'll fret more notes than you play.
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Lots of good info so far. Watch how great swing guitarists limit sustain by releasing the grip soon after sounding the strings. The timing of the release avoids mud and helps give percussive drive.
Focus (but not exclusively) on sounding D and G strings on 3rds and 7ths (or 6ths).
Don't try to play all the chord extensions. The chart is telling you what chords the horns and piano are playing so you'll know not to play anything that clashes with them, but in general don't try to play the full chords.
If using a pickup, keep the bass knob on your amp down.
Set your volume to keep the band mates happy. The audience probably won't hear you except on quiet passages, and that's how it should be.
If the repertoire also includes styles other than swing (pop, funk, bop, ballads,etc.) much of that advice goes out the window, but you only asked about swing.
Last edited by KirkP; 02-20-2017 at 09:05 PM.
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Everything above is so true. I'll just add a few more observations:
I omit the low E because that interfered with the bass player too much. We both play solidbody instruments, so frequencies tend to overlap more than an acoustic bass and archtop would. I might still strike a few muted strings just to have that percussive element that you lose when you hit just two strings; so I might fret 6x67xx for a Bb7 chord, but not press down on the low E string, and strike the four middle strings to get a sound that's percussive, fits in harmonically, and doesn't interfere with what the others are doing. The low E string helps me orient myself on the fingerboard.
Another thing I do is play 3-note voicings with my fingers as accents on tunes like "How High The Moon", which are more bop-oriented. That lets me add a bit more colour, and sounds more "modern" (if a 70-year old style can be modern) than straight 4-to-the-bar. Again, you've got to be careful with the piano, but over time you'll develop a feel for what the pianist is going to play, and lock in with him. Not that any piano player had ever bothered to lock in with the guitar 
And it's true that I play much more on the Blues and Funk numbers.
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Thanks guys I think this thread gives me a complete blueprint for tacking this. Without it I might have ended up throwing in the towel, because the project is just a bit of fun and the prep was threatening to eat up a lot more time than I felt I could justify spending.
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I'm reiterating what others have said but it's amazing how 2 notes can propel. Even in small group settings with or without a bass player 2 notes can suffice. The main thing is that they outline harmonic movement.
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If you don't know the three note voicings, you should learn them. It is jazz guitar 101. It is easy to omit the E string with those voicings, just don't play it.
Last edited by nopedals; 03-10-2017 at 04:26 PM.
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I have been playing in a four horn band for three years and recently a 15 horn band.
Each has a four pc rhythm section. The octet has alternating pianists and the big band hasn't had the same pianist twice.
First thing is to figure out the roadmap and the hits.
Once I've got that, I can focus on trying to play something that contributes.
It's easy to say Freddie Green. But, there are some real issues in making that work. For one thing, the bassist basically has to be playing quarter notes and the guitar becomes a percussive edge to it. Green was the master at this style -- and he was moving every beat. If you can do that, you can get that Basie style rhythm going.
BUT, a lot of the charts in my two bands don't call for that Basie type approach. When they do, great. I may play four to the bar, releasing left hand pressure to make it a little staccato, accenting the back beat in some situations, not playing the high E string and limiting the B string. But, it doesn't always work because one the bassist involved plays all kinds of stuff (much of which, frankly, I don't think works well) and my low E string can conflict. So, I'm more likely to play D and G string, two note things, and stay out of the way of the bass. I guess the Basie guys worked that out or developed the instinct.
Then, a lot of the music isn't Basie type swing. And, the pianist may or may not leave space. When I get aggressive, I often don't like it when I listen to the recording. I have to be careful or my part will be detrimental to the overall sound of the band.
When the horns and piano are playing chords with extensions, I can certainly play 3 and 7, but I often don't. Instead, I find the voicing. I think the guitar adds some texture that way, which I like. That said, sometimes just doing 3 and 7 on the D and G strings does sound better.
If the pianist doesn't show up for a night, it's a new world. Too much for this post. But, I notice that it doesn't work well if the piano just lays out for a chorus. I think it may take the ear too much time to adjust to the sound of guitar rather than piano doing the comping. Sometimes it's okay, sometimes not.
Then, there's the issue of comping rhythm. It depends substantially on whether the piano is playing pulse. The idea is that one instrument is pulsing and the other is playing ornamentation. Those two approaches certainly overlap. If the piano is doing both, it may be challenging to find a guitar part that contributes something. Part of the time, I let the piano comp behind the soloist's first chorus. Then, if there are horn backgrounds on the second solo chorus, I play along with the horns, using their rhythms.
Someone else already mentioned the excellent idea of listening to the drummer and phrasing with drums, often with the snare. I really ought to do that more.
On straight eighth tunes, the arrangers often write out comping patterns -- and I often find it's better to ignore them. For something like bossa, which is rooted more in guitar than piano, I just play the pulse strongly and let the piano player figure out how to work with it. For funk, it's usually a sparse but predictable pattern ... enough for one post.
Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-10-2017 at 07:19 PM.
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All I can say, from the years that I have played in different styles is "DON'T BE TOO BUSY," it's not what you play that's important, more like what you don't play that makes the difference. In the late Spring through early Fall ( 2nd week of June- till Labor Day Weekend), of 1974, I got hired right after graduating high school, by a Soul Group in Seattle Wa., filling in till their Guitar Player got back. I was only 19, and after one song, I was hired on the spot. I didn't know much about that style, so I really backed out of the way. I was the youngest (the others ranged from 20 to late 30's); the last Gig, the original Drummer and Guitarist were back.The Drummer just played congas next to the fill in Drummer, and The Guitar Player stood next to me. At break, he came outside where me and the fill in Drummer and one of the Girl Singers were (at break we had to go outside because we were under 21), he put his arm around my shoulder and said "I can see why they brought you in while I was gone; you aren't "busy" Little Man; you're playing just enough; nobody would know you weren't here, till you weren't." Sorry for the long story; but I hope you see the idea.
Last edited by Donnie; 03-13-2017 at 04:54 PM.
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Some great advice here. Also have a look at Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar.
Amazon.com: Mickey Baker's Complete Course in Jazz Guitar: Book 1 (Ashley Publications) (8601404406447): Mickey Baker: Books
Been around for 60 years but still has important reference points.
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