Moving a dominant chord up a minor third

[mokapot]

Why does it work? Lets say I have a diatonic A7 and I start playing a C7 arpeggio over it. Then I might go for the tritone sub Eb7(#11) and the F#7(#11).
I understand that the C7 is from the backdoor IIm-V7 (IVm-bVII7) and kind of implies a minor sound. In my head its like turning major sounds into minor.

So why does the Eb7#11 and the F#7#11 work? Why does tritone substitution work so well other than having the 3rd and the 7th of the dominant chords? I see that these two chords are the tritone subs of the A7 and the C7 - I would just like to hear your thoughts on it

The fourths seem to sound better raised too, unlike on the regular V7 and the backdoor dominant bVII7

[Nate Miller]

basically, because of the cycle of minor thirds. Really all we are ever doing is dividing up the octave and composing that out over time. So that is why all of those arpeggios work out. They come from the same cycle.

then if you want to look at why each of those arpeggios work at a "tactical" level, look at the root, 3rd, 5th, and 7th as they relate to A7

lots of altered extensions, aren't there?

so a dominant chord can be heavily altered and as long as the tritone is in there, it will function and resolve the same way as the unaltered dominant.


what you are doing is called "superimposition" if you want to look into it some more

so good stuff experimenting and exploring there. well spotted

[Boston Joe]

Take all of those dominant chords, and add a b9 to them. Then omit the root, and you'll have your answer.

[mokapot]

Thanks! I gave up on jazz a couple of years ago because I just couldn't find a way to keep up with the changes and still feel the music. Last winter I kind of started practising again. Having played other styles I had stopped thinking about scales and focused on the chord tones. But it still has been a struggle with the altered scale. How to stop thinking about it? I'm really trying to develop a way of hearing it an alternate way. Maybe I'll call it the diminished/minor third superimposition

Then there are more weird scales I still need perspective on but thats another subject...

[Nate Miller]

the chord tone way is a good way. That's what I do is use chord tones as targets for where my line is going.

with the altered dominants, remember that all your altered notes are just a half step away from all your chord tones. The b9, #9, #11, b13 are all just a half step away from the root third or fifth

that might give you some ideas to fool around with

[Boston Joe]

Some people refer to it as the "Family of four" or "group of four". I tend to think of it as the diminished group.

There's a similar kind of thing with 7#5 chords. Because the whole tone scale is symmetric, you can move a 7#5 chord around in whole steps. (You get a nat9 and a #11 as tensions).

[christianm77]

Here we go again :-)

[jdaguitar2]

I think of this sort of playing as a very organized way of playing altered tensions over a dominant chord. I like your approach to thinking of the arpeggios as it helps to avoid a "scalar" sound in your improvisations. In your A7 chord you can think of the altered scale over it, most of what you mentioned is in that scale with the exception of the F# note.

Here is the altered scale starting on A

A-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G

A7 is spelled A-C#-E-C7 is spelled C-E-G-Bb
Eb7#11 is spelled Eb-G-Bb-Db-A
F#7#11 is spelled F#-A#-C#-E-C

So for the C7 over the A7 the C is implying a #9, the E is the 5th, the G is the b7th and the Bb is the b9th.
For the Eb7#11 over the A7 you have Eb implying a b5/#11th, G is the b7, Bb is the b9, Db is the 3rd and A is root.
The F#7#11 over A7 is F# (not in the altered scale) as the 13th, A# is b9, C# is 3rd, E is 5th and C is #9.

Just my 2 cents.

[A. Kingstone]

They all share the same Related Diminished.


A7/C7/Eb7/F#7

. =

C#o/Eo/Go/A#o




Put those roots in a line - Diminished Scale.

[TH]

I like to think of my tonal or diatonic scales as static landscapes, full of nuance and great places to work within them. In my mind, the modal aspects belong to the diatonic landscapes; they're the nuance of tonality.

Then there're symmetrical scales. They have a uniformity to them. Chromatic, Whole tone, diminished, augmented, true fourths (which do not repeat within the octave), and tritones, to name a few. I think of these as non diatonic ways of getting from one place within the octave to another, and because they're symmetrical, wherever you stop, that's another tonic.
Symmetrical scales can have a close relationship to certain diatonic chords, as Boston Joe points out, the diminished is very closely related to the dominant... the augmented has a kinship with the melodic minor, whole tone can be used as a diminished (God bless Monk) and when you use the diatonic chords and connect them with symmetrical scales, you can shift them up or down, like a commuter train might take you from one related stop to another via the tonic "stations".

That way a dominant can move up a minor third (and viola there's the 1,3,b7 waiting there with different tonic relationships).
You can do this with whole tones too. Symmetrical scales are cool! Check out the Schillinger system of multiple tonics if you want a real eye opener. I think there was a thread about these at some point on this forum.

That's the way I see the connexion. Maybe it's not what everyone else is talking about, but it's serving me well and keeping me busy in sequences, alternative dominant approaches and general antidote for diatonic ho-humness.

Have fun
David

[NSJ]

So, Jack Zucker has a 12 tone theory of Chord substitution, I forgot the name he gives it, but you could take the major scale, and for every degree of the major scale, treat it like it's a diminished chord and move everything up a minor third, symmetrically. Not just the dominant seventh Vs, but also the I, ii, iii, IV, vi and vii.

Thus, not just CM7 , But also EbM7, GbM7 and AM7. Etc etc. he has a brief discussion somewhere on his sheets of sound webpage . I'm not qualified to assess it, it's over my head in terms of concrete Applications, although I understand it in theory.

( OK I'm killing time here, Pasquale Grasso juat issued his third and fourth online classes. I'm in the process of downloading them now . Between Pasquale, Alan and Ronnie, i've spent quite a bit of time in Barry Harris land. Maybe at some point I'll even watch some of Barry's videos . you think that would be the perfect place to start . )

[Generalmojo]

They all share the same Related Diminished.


A7/C7/Eb7/F#7

. =

C#o/Eo/Go/A#o




Put those roots in a line - Diminished Scale.

Yup. Play a diminished chord.

4 X 3 4 3 X

That's a G#dim7 or also a G7b9 with the b9 in the bass.

Move your G#dim7 up a minor third. That's just an inversion. That's a Bb7b9 with a b9 in the bass. And so on. G7b9 is the same thing as Bb7 is the same thing as Db7b9 is the same thing as E7b9. In a way that is. Just gotta drop that b9 in the bass down to the root.

It's called the diminished connection.

That's where those great dominant subs come from. Beatles used them all the time. V7, bVI7, bII7, and III7.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[aspiring dirty gp]

Having played other styles I had stopped thinking about scales and focused on the chord tones.

I think that's the best singular thing one can do. You can always start from there, then expand and embellish. If you play just scales that what they sound like.

Don Mock's book "Artful Arpeggios" is excellent in learning and employing subs. Take a given diatonic seventh chord arpeggio and play it over any given chord. A new sound will come out of it.

A good way to demonstrate this is to record whole note chords in a key i.e.

C: Cmaj7 Dmi7 Emi7 Fmaj7 Gdom7 Ami7 Bmi7b5

Then play a C, E, G, B major seventh arpeggio over each chord. You'll know when the overlay works and when it doesn't.

Try other four note arpeggios in any key over any chord. Gives lots of truly usable sounds. And it doesn't sound scale-like.

Any electronic keyboard or even an app to use the computer keyboard to play chords works well for sounding the whole-note chords.

And or check out Don's book, it's a great investment for few bucks.

Thanks for the time, -adgp-

[christianm77]

Does anyone ever use the III7 over a V7?

[mokapot]

So maybe this turned out to be more about "playing outside" the conventional harmony. Lets say that the ionian, the melodic minor minmaj, the harmonic minor minmaj, the harmonic major, the lydian major and the dominant (as the I chord) are the conventional harmony.

When we play an altered V7 perhaps we are just pulling from the augmented inversions of the minor tonality (IminMaj -> IIIminMaj ->bVIminMaj) after all
Thanks for your answers, Ill have more to practice now. As if discovering Julian Lages newest album wasnt enough of an inspiration!

Some ideas I got from here:
diminished ideas over major
C – G7 (=G7b9 or G#dim)

alternate harmony, alternate tonics
G#dim --> G7 to C
Bdim --> Bb7 to Eb
Ddim --> Db7(#11) to F#
Fdim --> E7(#11) to A

same with minor, using the augmented triad?
Cmin – G7#5 (Gaug)

Gaug -> CminMaj
Baug -> EminMaj
Ebaug -> G#minMaj

[christianm77]

I dunno I think the m3rd symmetry stuff is extremely conventional. Basic even.

Firstly - relating dominants to the important minor (the minor on the fifth of the dominant chord) is an important conceptual leap in learn to play changes. The dim7 sub is also very important.

So, V7 bII7 bVII7 sounds are all commonplace in bebop, and swing too (to an extent). Check out the recordings...

Certainly in standards we have this move - IIm7 --> IVm6 quite frequently (related to V7 --> bVII7 and also IV-->IVm6) . It's a corner stone of changes playing and a common way to handle a ii-V-I...

It's a small leap from there to full diminished sounds - IIm6 --> IVm6 --> bVIm6, say, which also gives us the altered sound (or tritone minor) on V7... We can use full dim chords IIo7 --> IVo7 --> bVIo7 --> VIIo7, adding in whole-half scales if we want. I like playing the note a whole step above the o7 in the treble and then resolving to the dim7, then moving the pattern up a m3rd each time. Obvious, but sounds great.

None of this raises any hackles when I do it on swing gigs. In fact, it sounds natural.

It's worth digging into the connections and similarities between the V phrygian dominant (minor's dominant) scale, the V altered scale and the V half whole (VII whole-half) scales. Often the differences are only one or two notes. For example, the bVIm6 sound is found in the all three scales.

My video covers the minor's dominant approach in some detail as it is the default one you will find in changes playing jazz post Parker through to the modal period - probably because it's the most straightforward to use melodically. It's often overlooked in the theory books but it's very much the sound of bebop. For more information, check out Barry Harris, although Pat Martino's ideas are also based around these symmetries.

Your augmented symmetry is commonplace in 30's jazz often in relation to the whole tone scale. BTW Four on Six has Wes playing a whole tone scale over the minor.

I always love the way modern cats think they've invented the wheel ;-)

[mokapot]

I always love the way modern cats think they've invented the wheel ;-)

Hahah, true. Theres not a lot of new stuff I guess. But don't we all have to create a system for improvisation? I like to think diatonic is conventional, or playing just the scale tones on a given tonality, thats straight forward to me. When you change it I can no longer keep up with it unless I know whats happening. Thats why I like to analyse it great stuff! Give me a minor 6 arpeggio (coming from IIm6->IVm6->bVIm6) over V7 any day, that way I can hear it

[medblues]

Doesn't moving a dominant seventh two frets up or down also give you all kinds of alterations of the same chord while remaining dominant ? (Jody Fisher has this demonstrated in his third Jazz Guitar book)

If both mechanisms are true, the combination turns into the typical jazz tautology of every note "works" :-)

[wolflen]

"...I always love the way modern cats think they've invented the wheel ;-) .."

I think it more like "discover" the wheel...

taking apart scales and chords..and seeing all the related points they have is really like .. as ted greene put it "chord chemistry"

Ben Monder uses a C MA7 and twists it into Eb13#5b9...when we discover that the function of any chord can be changed and used in a different context it gives us a sense of freedom in our playing ..using all these concepts is a life long journey in playing music..

perhaps it does feel like inventing something new..that has been hiding in plane sight all the while..

[TH]

Does anyone ever use the III7 over a V7?

It's a minor third from the dominant of the key. It works if you hear it. It'll make a good line if you create movement.
on the one hand, that's a sound unto itself. It always sounds like a part of a dominant cycle 4 progression (like the bridge of rhythm changes: III7 | VI7 | II7 | V7) .
On the other hand that third moves nicely down to the tonic fifth, the chord works when going to a major 9th chord of some sort.
But it's not a sound that's in my ear. The root occupies a spot that evaporates into the first inversion of the tonic chord. It starts in a position of stability for the target. I'll bet with work and good phrasing, you could make it work christianm77, if you hear it and create lines around what you're hearing.
Do you hear it?

David

[NSJ]

Doesn't moving a dominant seventh two frets up or down also give you all kinds of alterations of the same chord while remaining dominant ?

THREE frets up or down for each chord shape/type. Everything moves up and down in minor thirds. a minor third equals three frets on the guitar.

I have found that if you work the 4 drop 2 dominant 7th grips associated with strings 1-4 (1573, 3715, 5137, 7351), You can create a seemingly endless variety of material in which, after internalizing the left hand grips and understanding how to move from each to each, the creativity is only limited by the combinations and permeations generated by the right hand.

[mokapot]

Fm Bbm Eb7 Abmaj7
Dbmaj7 G7 Cmaj7
to
Fm9 Bbm9 Eb7->C7 Ab6
Dbmaj7#11 Dbm9/E->Em9/G C69

this is how id use the III7, first showing the listener that im implying the V7
Dbmaj7#11 I lower by two whole steps and take out the root, it becomes a minor chord with a third on the bass Dbm9/E
the Em9/G comes from going up a minor third

Im not a real pro jazz musician but these are just some ideas I liked thanks to this thread I have a simple system of using dominants in minor third cycles and minor chord sounds in augmented sequences (or whole tone every now and then)

[NSJ]

Don't know the book, but from melodic minor we get dominant 9 chords separated by a tone, between the 4th and 5th degree. Basically F13#11, can sub for G9b13 and vice versa.

Hmm, the rule I have learned that over any dominant chord, you can create interesting lines mixing and matching melodic minor built from the b9, P4 and P5 of the dominant chord. Thus, over C7:
C# melodic minor
F melodic minor
G melodic minor

Gets you all the extensions and alterations. Its the simplest way I can think of it.

[medblues]

THREE frets up or down for each chord shape/type. Everything moves up and down in minor thirds. a minor third equals three frets on the guitar.

I have found that if you work the 4 drop 2 dominant 7th grips associated with strings 1-4 (1573, 3715, 5137, 7351), You can create a seemingly endless variety of material in which, after internalizing the left hand grips and understanding how to move from each to each, the creativity is only limited by the combinations and permeations generated by the right hand.

I guess one page for educational purposes would not violate copyright:

[NSJ]

I'm not sure what you're point is.. All I said is you can play Dominant chord and move it up a minor third, as you would a diminished. C7-Eb7-Gb7-A7. Using the same grip, but moving up three Frets, i.e. A minor 3rd