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Maybe I misunderstood this Thread - when you say
' Modern' do you mean from ' Earlier ' and moving on up to and Including the way current Players
like Chico Pinheiro / Moreno / Kreisberg and cutting edge Players play Rhythm Accompaniment ?
Or did you mean some earlier 'Historic' period ...?Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-24-2017 at 08:38 AM.
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10-24-2017 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by fasstrack
Jimmy Raney (as I've said before, an important personal mentor) said once that he played rhythm guitar (with Woody Herman, later with Norvo) b/c it was 'traditional' (read: expected in gigging bands). He said he didn't like it himself behind him, and that the rhythm guitarist became a 'third wheel' in bebop b/c he felt it was more a 'chamber' type playing---a (rhythmic) 'counterpoint of things'.
I see his point: 'when in Rome...', and it's also a classic example of 'informed opinion(s)'---listen to him w/Norvo (dunno if he ever recorded with Woody). He replaced Tal Farlow and those recordings show very well how good a rhythm player he was. So if he later chose to forego it, he had every right---unlike people who put down whatever b/c of their own ignorance...
But the way these guys play rhythm is a specific feel, and it is in fact a bop feel not an old school swing feel. I really like it....
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Also Peter Bernstein plays rhythm guitar sometimes in ensembles. His comping style I would describe as 'broken up rhythm guitar', actually.
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Originally Posted by Robertkoa
If I am talking about the current era I will normally say 'contemporary.'
It's pretty confusing, 50-70 years ago being modern is pretty funny. But it makes sense to put a big dividing line around WWII for rhythm sections. There were a few historical things that came together completely change the way rhythm sections played at this time.
Also 'modern' because rhythm guitar in jazz is associated with old school styles like big band and trad jazz.Last edited by christianm77; 10-24-2017 at 09:06 AM.
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I think modern jazz accompanyment owes a lot to Herbie Hancock's left hand with Miles.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The CST approach to improvisation is merely the most obvious and frequently it would seem, poorly taught example of this.
Where does CST come from? Who uses it? How did it evolve? How does it relate to bebop? These things are not clear at all actually, and if you want to know you have to do a lot of unpicking.
There are loads more. I might do a list.
Part of the fun (for me) of getting into the music is understanding where all this shit comes from and how it is developed in different player's music. I'm slowly picking my way through it. Bill Evans & Herbie is a big area that I keep meaning to dip into.
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A lot of people have mentioned Jim Hall, in my opinion, it doesn't get any better than Jim's comping on "The Power Of Three" with Wayne and Michel Petrucciani:
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Originally Posted by christianm77
'Broken up' is (I guess you mean) piano-style comping, more or less, right? I think we'd all like to to that, but the pianists tend to hog it. I love quartet settings sometimes w/o piano for that reason. A professor of mine, the late Ed Summerlin wisely said the guitar is 'homogeneous'---meaning it blends. Piano is more of a percussion instrument, not as blending to me. But they rule the bandstand, what're you gonna do?
Like I said, that's the criteria for me, having the rhythm guitar foundation. I did it backwards myself, and it eventually bit me in the ass. Had to take time out and learn to be a good rhythm player. Almost every guitar player wants to solo first, b/c they hear the soloists and are inspired. Totally understandable, but, to a man or woman, once we mature a bit we know we're missing something important if we tried a shortcut around rhythm playing.
'Rhythm is our business'---Jimmy Lunceford Band...
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Originally Posted by fasstrack
I saw him do straight fours on his organ gig at Smoke, so no piano. Although if you are going to comp with a piano, 4s is probably your best bet.
Piano style makes me think of three/four note voice leading with fingers or pick + fingers like Pasquale for instance who is explicitly imitating piano and gets frighteningly close in his case. Most players seems to do the pick and fingers thing.
PB explicitly avoids it. I think PB maybe the most guitaristic comper working in modern jazz.
As a player I quite like the capacity to move between a full rhythm guitar style and more open and interactive rhythmic comping. You can't do straight fours with fingers really.
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Jim Hall is similar to PB in that also, I think...
That concert is killer.... I need to listen to more Petrucciani!
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Originally Posted by christianm77
But Pete is a beautiful player and person...
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Yeah, Pasquale is quite 'pianistic'. His big hero is Bud Powell, as I'm sure you know. He also played classical as a child, so he has that fingerstyle thing very together. I think as a guitarist he's very likely to be one of the best ever---if there is such a thing. He's growing musically, too. A giant in the making...
As for me, I play piano style as often as the situation allows, and love it. I play a lot of duo with a flute player and find myself gravitating to bass-chords or 4 on the floor---it seems more supportive in that situation than a more 'implied' time/harmony framework, and Louis, the flute player, is 70 and very used to that older-school thing, so I do it to make him comfortable. I also try to hold the volume down b/c amplified guitar could overwhelm unmiced flute. And we play a LOT of pop music, too, which calls for a whole other comping 'skill set'.
I guess what I'm getting at is that comping----there's no 'one' or 'right' way, right? It always comes down to listen, listen, listen, absorb, absorb, absorb---then respond appropriately. The beauty, of course, is there are so many 'ways through Rome'. And, thinking about it, a good player won't necessarily play the same way even day to day. So many factors go into what we play---musical and other.
OK, I'm fried---up since 5. Time to relax. But thanks for a very thought-provoking thread, Christian...
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One of the most notable examples of Jim Hall playing four-to-the-bar comping is under Bill Evans' second chorus on My Funny Valentine from "Undercurrent". The way he builds to that moment makes it almost seem inevitable (c. 3'10"):
Many modern guitarists could be considered 'sons of Jim Hall' - Scofield, Metheny, Frisell, Lage - but in my mind, Peter Bernstein is his closest heir in terms of comping conception. Check out Pete's masterful and deep playing throughout this clip (the drums are quite instrusive but to be fair, that may also be a consequence of Small's acoustics). PB both lays down the time and interacts with everyone else in a mind-blowing manner.
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Originally Posted by fasstrack
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Originally Posted by PMB
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Ok, great, fundamental topic.
"I think it is safe to say that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that guitarists have really tackled the necessitites of comping in a modern style" - Andrew Green's website.
I took lessons in the late 90ies in Paris, France, with a great guitarist who had the best jazz plectrum comping technique I've ever heard anywhere, then or since. Yes, better in some ways than even Jim Hall and Peter Bernstein IMHO. I've learned since that he doesn't play anymore which is very unfortunate.
I had a long hiatus not playing for about 15 years, but that teacher's lessons left an indelible mark.
I should say I have some aesthetic biases - I like a guitar to sound like a guitar, and to me that means comping with a pick most of the time, with few exceptions, for instance if the player has a powerful, trained "classical" hand (Grasso). Julian Lage summed it up nicely when he said something about the need to bring the body and the neck of the guitar into resonance. To me finger-style comping on steel-string guitars does not achieve that, most of the time, either because it is the steel of the strings that makes it harder, or because of insufficient technique, or a combination of both. In such cases I prefer a to hear a beautiful, deep-sounding, well strummed 3-chord folk song, all day long, rather than the kind of timid, emotionally suppressed finger-plucked "comping" that is so prevalent. Because as I said, I want to hear the glorious sound of a guitar, for instance:
Now for some modern players comping, or even sounding like a guitar has taken a back seat - they want to emulate Coltrane, or fuse Hendrix with Michael Brecker and Indian music, or whatever, and that's fine in itself, it's just not my thing.
As has been said two of the best recent examples would be Jim Hall and Peter Bernstein. Jim Hall does it beautifully (another example is Jazz Samba on the other duo album with Bill Evans) but... thin pick and light strings. Barry Greene does it very well too. There's one clip of him in a duo with Larry Coryell, where he does it better than Coryell IMO. Another example would be Mark Whitfield, on his True Blue album, and an album he did with trumpet genius Nicholas Payton, on Taking a Chance on Love (with the mighty Mulgrew Miller on piano - I doubt you can be a timid comper with those two guys around). The following clip gives a good idea of Mark's skill, starting at 2:22
So what was my teacher's concept about comping? He was a modern player who had digested everything up to his time, but he had the highest regard for tradition. Freddie Green was not to be dismissed out of hand and paid lip service to, Freddie Green was the founding father of rhythm guitar - which meant, he had mastered that style (having held the "rhythm chair" in Paris's foremost big band for a while), and that style informed the more modern comping he was able to do (also even as a Frenchman, he considered "gypsy jazz" and the pompe style to be another domain entirely, his realm was "American" jazz). He would do Beautiful Love in the style of Bill Evans for instance, but the lessons of Freddie Green could still be heard (i.e. and in short, it swung like hell).
Typically, in a lesson on a new standard, he would record a 4-to-the-bar version, followed by a more rythmically varied and harmonically complex modern version - both equally beautiful and satisfying, always done in one take. In both versions, complete chords were sounded; in the big band context, he would play 1 to 3 notes, I distinctly remember him saying this. 1 upstroke for every downstroke, the majority of the time - I know, not many players would do that, but in his case it never sounded like too much or anything clicky - suddenly you could hear the drums too. I can't remember what guitar he was playing, other than it was an f-hole archtop, I just didn't pay attention to such things in those days. I'm only sure it wasn't a Gibson, Guild, D'Angelico, Ibanez... but a more obscure brand guitar he had probably hand-picked. He sounded huge. To give an idea, take the punch and presence in the Zachary Richard clip I posted above, and imagine that combined with exquisite harmonic variations on a great jazz standard. It sounded just great, stirred your guts and your soul. Also worth mentioning is the fact he had a world-class, Rolex-precise right-hand technique, which he derived I think from his study of the oud, a Middle Eastern kind of lute. His strumming technique was definitely better than Hall, Bernstein or even Whitfield. When years later, I resumed the guitar, I looked around on records, YouTube, etc. and discovered how rare my teacher's approach to - and excellence in - comping was, to my great, great surprise.
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I don't actually play ' Jazz'( standards ) but I use all the chords so considerable overlap I lean on the Harmonic Rhythm more overtly - and I notice that Jazz Players tend to be more sparse Rhythmically often playing chords like Horn Stabs etc.
But some more Modern guys like Moreno mix in Finger Style or Pick and Fingers style which is more like what I do where I am sounding more like a Piano or 1 hand of a Piano Player anyway maybe six fingers - ha.
To avoid being too cluttered I have always voiced my Chords in between the Keys left and right hands or above...although I like dense mixes anyway .
When Jazzers play Chord Melody they are more Piano-like and in a group setting or Recording sometimes the line between Solo Guitar and Comping gets blurred because there may be a subtle melodic line on top of the Chords which is accompanying the Soloist or Vocalist..
I notice this when composing / improvising with different chords ..
" Is this the accompaniment to a ( as yet not ' written '
Melody or Head ) or IS it the Head ?"
I am more accustomed to writing for Vocals where whatever I Play on the Guitar from Fingerstyle or Strumming or Combinations is accompanying the Vocal..
But Instrumental Music is a bit more nebulous when just searching playing ideas.
Many Jazz Players appear to be running up harmonized scales or jumping inversions with a lot of Melody on top even comping for a Soloist or Singer ( Chico Pinheiro, Kriesberg ,etc )....a very wide open Concept...
For example the Song' Blackbird ' sounds almost like a Solo Guitar Piece when played with no vocal...seems a little 'busy ' for a Vocal- but of course it's perfect for the Vocal and would work 'As Is ' for a Sax or Flute or String playing the Melody..
BUT with another Guitar playing the Melody the Guitar would probably need to be Processed to be different in Timbre to not conflict.
Of course in Practice a Jazzer would do a Chord Melody Arrangement with passing chords etc and the Melody on Top...just an illustration of blurring the line between Comping and Solo Guitar.Last edited by Robertkoa; 10-25-2017 at 10:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Rhythm guitar in a jazz context was often acoustic. Electric players would turn down and play the acoustic box. So it's a different colour - uncluttered, fast decay, underpinning rather than domiating the ensemble and not interfering with the harmony too much. Voicings kept simple 1 3 7 or 1 3 6 etc, but with lots of movement. See Jim Hall.
I note that Chico uses a DPA mic on the body of his archtop. That's a solution I'd like to try sometime. His sound suits his strumming style for instance in his tune Triades.
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Nice post m_d - I need more Whitfield in my life! Very old school - almost banjo playing but modern & funky.
I wanted to pull out Julian Lage as a guy who really strums as well, and he also has the hybrid polyphonic thing down to. So many colours...
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Julian Lage so got it! He's maybe one guitarist from new generation that I really dig. Jim Hall from players from another era was amazing with strumming too!
Rhythm guitar is my fav thing to do in a band, but not much use for it in bebop ensembles, with that stupid comping lol
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Originally Posted by m_d
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
Jim Hall is a legend and a half. It's because of him that I developed an interest in playing a guitar. Absolute legend!
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Go to 1:50 - that's some beautiful soulful funky Rhythm Guitar ..*I don't hear enough African American in most Jazz..probably why I never became a huge Jazz fan.
* who cares what I want to hear ...lol I get that .
Ignore the strings.
When I say strong harmonic Rhythm these rhythm parts by Wes should give you an idea of what I mean,
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I am no musical genius but I use active expanded voicings and very strong Rhythms etc. in Expanded R&B including syncopated broken chords etc. by taking what the Chords themselves give me .
I hear the Tune above as Expanded R&B , there is very little precedent in Jazz Guitar for 'Urban 'Rhythm ..Guitar ( a plus for me ).
and I was surprised that Wes did some basic parts of this so long ago. (I never heard Road Song until about a year ago ).
Another obvious example would be the Phil Upchurch rhythm Guitar part in Benson's version of 'Take Five ' - very distinctive and cool but IMO Harmonic Rhythm is not always about chopping up the beat - it's reinforcing or even exaggerrating what's implied by the Harmony and / or going against it using syncopation , polyrhythm and occasionally polymeter ..BUT IMO those patterns can still reinforce the Groove to the listener .
Playing fingerstyle syncopated Rhythms like modified Ragtime is cool but does not always translate as well with a Rhythm Section as simpler ' larger ' parts like Wes did.Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-22-2018 at 10:51 AM.
Julian Lage Trio, Amsterdam, April 17 2024
Today, 02:19 AM in The Players