Soloing with chords a la pass/kessel/breau etc

**worktodo** · 07-01-2009, 02:03 PM

Hi there,

I really wanna start to get chord solos down, but i was wondering if anyone could suggest any pointers? Aside from looking at fourths, and inversions what would you guys recommend I look at? Obviously transcribing is a given, just trying to think of other ways to supplement it.

Many thanks

Dave

PS - probably a mistake to list pass, kessel, and breau in the same sentence, as they're pretty far apart, but oh well!

**Bill_J** · 07-01-2009, 03:21 PM

I built a series of graphics that show the iim7, V7, and Imaj7 arpeggios. My purpose was not to use it to learn the arps, but to see the partial chords that are inside each of the arps, over the entire neck. I use them to move into chord forms as part of my improv.

They helped me a lot. If you send me your email, I will send you a copy of the chart in PDF.

lakesidestudio@shaw.ca

Bill

**mr. beaumont** · 07-01-2009, 03:22 PM

you're talking about actually improvising in chords, right?

here's a few suggestions...

1. when you learn a tune, get down all the chords in several positions. also figure out how to play the chords to the tune on the top four strings only.

2. take the joe pass idea of "everything is major, minor, or dominant" the dominants are the most fun, because during a solo passage (with no overlaying melody) alterations can pretty much be "at will."

3. pay very close attention to the top note of the chord. that's gonna likely be heard as the "melody" note to your solo. practice small sections of the tune, and try to play the chords to that section and keep the melody moving in a pleasing pattern on top.

4. remember, that diminished chords are your friend, especially when going for a "wes" style block chord solo. diminished chords can be used as chromatic "passing" chords that get you to the next melody note.

5. absorb as much ed bickert as possible--IMHO, he's the best at this.

**derek** · 07-01-2009, 03:26 PM

There is this book that is full of "chord licks" ala Wes. I have it and have incorporated a couple of them in my playing. I keep thinking I will get back to it, as it is a cool thing to have under your fingers.

Amazon.com: Chordal Bebop Lines for Guitar: Jim Bastian: Books

**JohnW400** · 07-01-2009, 03:38 PM

Everthing Mr B mentions, in addition:

For Playing Solo Style:

Get yourself a copy of Joe Pass Guitar Solos and Joe Pass Plays the Blue. (I don't think they're available in tab ).

The chord solo book is 6 tunes that Joe improvises on using mostly chords and double stops. The Joe Pass plays the Blues book is good because it shows you how to comp in between soloing.

For using chords as a solo device with a bass player or group again follow Mr. B' advice (also the JP chord solo book).

Also never underestimate the value of some well placed double stops like 3rds and 6's , even 7ths. Triads as well, major minor augmented and dimished. Just about any major triad fits against a dominant.

**worktodo** · 07-01-2009, 04:26 PM

Man I love this forum! So many useful comments. Not sure where to start!!

Thanks so much guys

Bill_J - nice one, i've dropped you an email -much appreciate the offer!

mr. beaumont - thanks for the pointers - shamefully haven't heard of ed bickert, so i'll definitely check him out! Band in a box will definitely help for point 3. Cheers!

Derek - good recommendation - really wanna get that book but sadly i'm gonna have to hold off on that one - can't afford it right now, but i've taken note. I'll just have to make do with transcribing some wes in the mean time.

JohnW400 - cheers, i'll check those books out too - i've got a couple of joe pass books so far, but they're not transcriptions. Yeah i've always over looked double stops but they sound great - really wanna work out how Frisell uses them - such a sweet sound.

Thanks guys! Here goes!

Dave

**fast1** · 07-02-2009, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by derek

There is this book that is full of "chord licks" ala Wes. I have it and have incorporated a couple of them in my playing. I keep thinking I will get back to it, as it is a cool thing to have under your fingers.

Amazon.com: Chordal Bebop Lines for Guitar: Jim Bastian: Books

i second that, this is a good book

**gravitas** · 07-02-2009, 12:07 PM

I'd say a big thing to pay attention to is independance between all the voices in your chords. If you're trying to improvise freely with chords, you're not going to be able to do it if you're just memorizing grips. That's a recipe for regurgitation, not creation.

When I started going through Ted Greene's Harmony books, I found that the most useful information wasn't really the chord diagrams, but his philosophies on applying his ideas in real time. He implies that total control comes with the knowledge of every voice in your chord- bass, tenor, alto, (mezzo) soprano, etc.- and then quickly details the various voice-leading techniques that one should be conscious of when one is soloing with chords.

It seems to me that a good way to practice incorporating these various techniques is to break your chords into pieces and practice with miniature voicings- groups of two at a time- so as to properly understand how best to resolve them on the fly. For example, you could take the Soprano Voice and the Bass Voice (probably the most utilitarian starting point, given each of those voices' importance to the rest of the harmony) and play through a tune while maximizing contrary motion between the two. The next chorus, try oblique motion, then parallel motion, then similar motion, etc. WHen you're confident with those, add another voice.

**worktodo** · 07-02-2009, 02:17 PM

Thanks gravitas - very informative post. Thats one thing that i noticed straight away about Ted Greene - his independence is ridiculous!! He truly is a composer.

I'll work on those things. Many thanks, Dave

**franco6719** · 07-03-2009, 01:47 PM

This is not one of my strong areas either. I will check out the book and try some of these ideas. Thanks for the thread.

It really is tough to make and maintain an organized and, hopefuly, productive practice routine without a teacher or some external input. But I think I'm managing to move forward thanks to sites like this and the resources available nowadays.

**derek** · 07-04-2009, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by franco6719

This is not one of my strong areas either. I will check out the book and try some of these ideas. Thanks for the thread.

It really is tough to make and maintain an organized and, hopefuly, productive practice routine without a teacher or some external input. But I think I'm managing to move forward thanks to sites like this and the resources available nowadays.

The problem for me is too many choices. If we choose a topic and stick with it, a book or vid and really work it, then there is so much benefit, as there are so many great resources out there.

However, we all have such short attention spans, and tend to stray when the work gets tedious. I have been sticking with Les Wise's Jazz Solos for a couple of months now, and am just now seeing the fruit of it.

So once we have the basics down, there are so many directions to go.

**monkmiles** · 07-05-2009, 04:37 PM

So how about soloing mostly single line, but adding in chordal stabs and lines here and there? Anyone have any pointers to doing that?

Originally Posted by derek

There is this book that is full of "chord licks" ala Wes. I have it and have incorporated a couple of them in my playing. I keep thinking I will get back to it, as it is a cool thing to have under your fingers.

Amazon.com: Chordal Bebop Lines for Guitar: Jim Bastian: Books

Thanks for sharing that. I'm interested in getting a copy for myself. Perhaps those lines can be integrated with single lines like I'm looking for.

Found a better price than amazon at ejazzlines: HOW TO PLAY CHORDAL BEBOP LINES FOR GUITAR: Jim Bastian

**worktodo** · 07-05-2009, 05:56 PM

wicked man! Nice one for the tip off - i've ordered it! Gonna take like 3 weeks, but the cost for importing it is literally a 3rd of what i would've had to pay on the other sites ($30 on the other sites!! bastards!!)

Man, practice routines - so much bloody hard work to establish a good one! I've just finished my first year of a jazz degree, and everyones had exactly the same problem. I guess especially because a good routine is such a personal thing too.

One thing that a great teacher of ours recommended is A days and B days. Basically do all the technical stuff on A days, and the more creative stuff on B days, like applying the A day material. Then you just take the sunday off. I'm in the process of trying to get that started up, i'll let you know how it goes, but he swears by it!

Anyone have any other suggestions?

Cheers,

Dave

**gravitas** · 07-08-2009, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by martinopass

So how about soloing mostly single line, but adding in chordal stabs and lines here and there? Anyone have any pointers to doing that?

Watch Lenny Breau's left hand in this video:

Sometimes you've gotta physically see the player perform his technique. There's a lot to be said for lifting something by ear, and transcription is an invaluable tool for the jazz musician- but for learning the most efficient technical way of executing something, the eyes won't lie.

**franco6719** · 07-09-2009, 04:10 AM

Hey, didn't I once see Satriani play like that? AR AR AR!!

**franco6719** · 07-09-2009, 04:14 AM

One thing that a great teacher of ours recommended is A days and B days. Basically do all the technical stuff on A days, and the more creative stuff on B days, like applying the A day material. Then you just take the

Sunday

off. I'm in the process of trying to get that started up,

I'll

let you know how it goes, but he swears by it!

I had thought about this idea several times, but never ran with it for some reason. I think I was worried I would end up losing something or something weird like that. It seems like this may be the best way to go actually when the material becomes overwhelming and/or you are a compulsive type.

**monkmiles** · 07-09-2009, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by gravitas

Watch Lenny Breau's left hand in this video:

Sometimes you've gotta physically see the player perform his technique. There's a lot to be said for lifting something by ear, and transcription is an invaluable tool for the jazz musician- but for learning the most efficient technical way of executing something, the eyes won't lie.

Thanks for sharing that. It does help to see players work in chord stabs in single note solos. But I think I still need a general rule of thumb to start. I've been thinking of trying to add a couple chord stabs of the chords in the current measure I'm at....and perhaps throwing in some stabs every 4-8 measures. Just thinking out loud.

**gravitas** · 07-09-2009, 02:27 PM

All right, well try thinking of it like this then: there are two tones that are essential in defining any chord in triadic harmony: the 3rd degree of the chord and the seventh degree of the chord. If you look at Lenny's grips during that version of Georgia on my Mind, you'll find that most of the time he's using his middle and ring fingers to grab those two tones on the fretboard. Those are the notes you should use to "stab," so to speak.

It goes without saying that you probably don't always want to improvise the most obvious tones in the chord, but I wouldn't think about playing anything else. If you're already playing a single note line on top of the thirds and sevenths, the tones involved in the single note line will inform an overall chordal picture. Say you're playing over a Dminor chord and your single note line hangs on an E note for a while- when you "stab" the third and seventh you'll be improvising chords freely and achieving the sound of D Minor9, even though all you were thinking was "line" and "stab."

Hope that helps, and that nobody gets cut

**JohnW400** · 07-09-2009, 02:56 PM

By stabs, do you mean to solo with the chords or just to fill space? If it's to fill space try 2 measures of single lines followed by 2 of comp or walking bass/chords. If you're trying to harmonize the line then try working using 1/8 notes runs with chords on beat 1 and 3. Use the top note in the chord as the 'launching note" for the run.

Take a simple run like G E F# G F# D E F# B as eight notes on the 2nd string.

Harmonmize the first note G with some kind of an Ami7 with G as the top voice. Now play E F# G as single notes.

Now play D7 with F# as the top notes and then follow that up with D E F# as single notes. The play a Gma7 with B in the top voice.

This is how you start. Take a line and harmonize it as if it was a chord melody.

With enough practice you can start to see each voice as a line.

**monkmiles** · 07-09-2009, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by gravitas

All right, well try thinking of it like this then: there are two tones that are essential in defining any chord in triadic harmony: the 3rd degree of the chord and the seventh degree of the chord.

Thanks for the explanation. That's definitely not the way I was looking at it initially. I'll try it out in my practicing.

Originally Posted by gravitas

Hope that helps, and that nobody gets cut

It does, thanks. And hahaha, no one will get cut...I'll use a fake rubber knife for my stabs.

Originally Posted by JohnW400

By stabs, do you mean to solo with the chords or just to fill space? If it's to fill space try 2 measures of single lines followed by 2 of comp or walking bass/chords.

A little of both but moreso to fill space, which I know probably wasn't the initial point of this thread. The 2 measures of single followed by 2 of comping is the type of thing I was thinking. I'll try some of that...maybe going with higher voicings (voicings on the top 3-4 strings).