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For once in my guitar life I no longer see lead playing and single note soloing as the be all end all of my playing. Yeah, I always wanted to be good at rhythm too but I took it for granted and never really tried to get in "the groove." I watched an interview with Tom Petty (jazz forum! I know I know!) who said he wanted the music on his new record to really groove and mentioned the bass and drums. It hit me that if you're playing solo guitar if you don't groove nothing will and if your melody is wobbly how do you make up for it? Two things I plan to focus on are melody and rhythm: I know a lot of chords but not too many ways to play them...thoughts, ideas?
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05-04-2016 04:36 AM
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These two books / CDs will show you the ropes and then some.
http://www.amazon.com/Maiden-Voyage-.../dp/1562240889
Mike Diliddo - Easy Jazz Guitar - Amazon.com Music
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1. Inversion/VoicingI know a lot of chords but not too many ways to play them...thoughts, ideas?
3 note chords can be ordered 6 ways.
4 note chords can be ordered 24 ways
Other possibilities:
Omit a note
Double a note
Omit a note and double a note
2. Chord families
There are 3 chord families:
Major
Minor
Dominant
Family members are potentially interchangeable.
Modal extensions that don't contradict the the basic chord are essentially the same chord.
Ex. C7, C9, C9#11, C13, C13#11
3. Upper and lower neighbor chords
In some ways similar to extensions. Difference being acknowledging the root movement.
Cma7 | Am7 | Dm7 | G7 ||
C Em7 | Am7 Fma7 | Dm7 Bbma7 | Bm7b5 G7 ||
4. Approach Chords, suspensions, passing notes
These can add more movement.
Cma7 | Am7 | Dm7 | G7 ||
Cma7 Bo Cma7 E7 | Am7 Ab7 Gm7 C9 | Fma7 A7/E Dm7 C#o | Dm7 Dm7b5/Ab G7 Db9#11 ||
Overkill, yeah I know.
5. Rhythm
Use rhythm to lend movement and nuance to the chord vocabulary that you already know.
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Mark and bako: Thank you so much for the advice, I'm thrilled to get such super responses! Mark, I will take a look at the book and cd and see what my budget looks like: I usually have enough money for the resources I want but I've bought damn near every ebook from Jazz Guitar Online, not looking for the "secret" but maybe a lot of keys to unlock doors. I'm excited about the Volumes 1 and 2 of the Jazz Gazette but I'm going to make myself finish the intro. to Jazz Blues because in addition to jazz I love the blues and the ebook gives some very basic info on blues playing and how it relates to jazz. bako I will study what you wrote as a lot of it looks familiar but some is kinda new, like I've seen it before maybe once and Mark I will follow the links you offered--Take care!
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hey man, if you really know your drop 2 and 3 inversions pretty well already...checking out some material on barry harris harmony may actually feel like you found a secret to open a new door (felt like that for me anyway). you could check out pasquale grasso's video on my musicmasterclasses, check out jazz school online for the courses or to order Alan Kingstone's book, and I think Roni Ben hur has done material on it. It all costs money...but why wouldn't it?
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Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Well, two different things.
I am not among the people who think jazz has to have a steady swing at all times. I love players that can play more freely with rhythm, drummers included (check out Paul Motian!) That said, it needs to be done with intent, you can't just have wobbly time and say it's for artistic reasons.
Melody is something you need to have down cold. Know a few places to play it, if it's an easier one (obviously, you don't need to know Donna Lee in three positions!) But the melody is the #1 thing that will save your butt if you get lost.
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Mark, tomorrow I'll be able to get the Maiden Voyage comping book and Easy Jazz Tunes book
(they are sold together for a marked down price so I think it's a good deal). Will put the c.d. on
my wish list. Thanks for the recs Mark!
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mr.beaumont: when I'm trying to learn a horn player by ear the first thing I get a handle on is the melody, and it may not even be in the right key but I'll be playing the intervals as I hear them--here's one door I'd love to open up, and that's how to transpose Jazz chords what with their extensions and such on guitar? I know some people can hear a G#9b5 chord (maybe a bad example) and just cream it the first time, but I fudge it the first time and can maybe pull off a G?? but I won't lie I feel stupid knowing there's more going on and I don't know what to do with my fingers. I can pick out simple and slow melodies and copy the rhythmic feel of a song if I study it a bit. At risk of sounding ridiculous I had a guitar teacher once who would meow like a cat to get the notes of the song I was learning: to be fair he usually got it right: usually. But he did introduce me to Pat Metheny who I saw live: excellent show.
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joe... I've heard, that is read a lot about inversions and I may know more about them than I think but I've got a huge Jazz Theory book (they actually sell it beside the practice book in the estore) and I'm going to study it until I have a good grasp on inversions...thanks for bringing them up...
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right on. don't bother with the resources I mentioned until you get those under your fingers
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Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Start by training yourself to hear chord "quality." Major...Minor...Dominant...once you can do that, you can start listening for extensions...it takes practice.
If you can pick out simple, slow melodies, keep doing it. Learn a bunch...then try a simple medium tempo melody...or a more complex slow one...everything builds on everything.
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bako, I studied about it for a minute and I see now that inversions are just about order and placement and the possibilities are dictated by mathematics:3 note 6.. 4 note 24. The connection between inversion and voicing clears
things up a lot for me now, at least I think it does. I know enough to know I need to learn more voicings and I'm hoping the book Mark recommended helps with that.
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Before Mark's rec I was going to get Miles Davis and Thelonious Monk books for solo guitar: that's the kind of thing i want to play but do I need to take other steps first?
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Barney Kessel said that folk songs were good for this. Simple, familiar melodies that "everyone knows." Christmas songs are another good source of melodies to check your "picking it out" skills. And as Herb Ellis would say, "Sing what you play (or play what you sing, whichever way you want to put it.)" Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
In either case, take it slow. Taking on too much material at once inevitably leads to crushing frustration. Avoid that.Last edited by MarkRhodes; 05-04-2016 at 11:56 AM.
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What you should do for practice is to sing the melodies as well as arpeggios in all inversions, of all the chords you are to play, 11 times in a row, without mistake. Also in reverse. Then transpose to couple more keys, preferably all 12. Only then you will start hearing things in your head.
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They are both really great inspirations for wanting to play. But as far as other steps, yes. Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
It's never too early to get to know the music, in any form. I too considered Monk a real iconic figure. I got Gary Wittner's books and they were terrific for seeing how some of those sounds could be translated to guitar. But for me these were largely re-creative experiences; they didn't help me much in understanding what made Monk's music...what Monk's creative process was.
So there're the other steps: understanding the music. I put some thoughts about this in one of the other threads you posted, I don't know if you can find that or if you care, but to get to Monk, and Miles, for that matter, you need to understand about time, the conventions of harmony and melody that they were working with and what they did to break those conventions. That's what helped me: I tried to understand what their thought process was and not necessarily just the notes they played.
As far as people to listen to though, I found Bill Frisell's solo work really quite Monkish in many ways. His study of dissonance and resolution, of displaced time and phrasing can be quite Monkish in many ways. Peter Bernstein too, is someone I get a lot from. To really appreciate their creative genius, I think having a good idea of their process is essential. That comes from things that fall under the category of Theory.
That's my take anyway.
David
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David, I have The Jazz Theory Book: will that plus listening to their tunes on YouTube help me get inside the master's heads? I want to start a revolution of my own, I just need some more ammunition!
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Your "revolution" starts here:
Learn the major scale, harmonized chord progressions and arpeggios in each of 5 positions, cold, without error.
Make a video or audio clip performing these.
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Roscoe, before worrying too much about extensions I'd get to know all the 7th chord inversions in context.
You've been looking at Autumn Leaves. It's been called THE desert island jazz tune. Apart from its use of melodic sequencing, there are a number of harmonic aspects worth noting.
The first eight bars (in the original key) outline a cycle of 4ths: A-7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | Cmaj7 | F#-7b5 | B7b9 | E-7 | % |. That opening section contains a major ii-V-I progression (A-7, D7, Gmaj7) followed by a minor ii-V-I progression (F#m7b5, B7b9, E-7). Incidentally, the connecting Cmaj7 wasn't in the original version but provides nice contrast and helps complete the cycle.
Another useful aspect of learning this cycle is that it includes the five basic 7th chord types: major (Gmaj7, Cmaj7), dominant (D7), minor (A-7, E-7), half diminished (F#-7b5) and diminished (B7b9=D#dim7).
Here's an exercise in voice-leading via inversions that I give to my students. This exercise presents the five most common drop 3 and drop 2 chord types. Once you have these down without having to reference the pages, try transposing them up a minor 3rd from Em to the more common contemporary key of Gm. Then you'll be ready to simplify the voicings (by extracting guide tones and shell voicings) and enrich them (by adding extensions, passing chords etc.).
Last edited by PMB; 05-04-2016 at 09:42 PM.
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This is where OP thanks PMB profusely.
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Great exercice in order to practice inversions on a famous tune. Thanks PMB (profusely indeed !)
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Thank you PMB Originally Posted by PMB
Roscoe, before worrying too much about extensions I'd get to know all the 7th chord inversions in context.
You've been looking at Autumn Leaves. It's been called THE desert island jazz tune. Apart from its use of melodic sequencing, there are a number of harmonic aspects worth noting.
The first eight bars (in the original key) outline a cycle of 4ths: A-7 | D7 | Gmaj7 | Cmaj7 | F#-7b5 | B7b9 | E-7 | % |. That opening section contains a major ii-V-I progression (A-7, D7, Gmaj7) followed by a minor ii-V-I progression (F#m7b5, B7b9, E-7). Incidentally, the connecting Cmaj7 wasn't in the original version but provides nice contrast and helps complete the cycle.
Another useful aspect of learning this cycle is that it includes the five basic 7th chord types: major (Gmaj7, Cmaj7), dominant (D7), minor (A-7, E-7), half diminished (F#-7b5) and diminished (B7b9=D#dim7).
Here's an exercise in voice-leading via inversions that I give to my students. This exercise presents the five most common drop 3 and drop 2 chord types. Once you have these down without having to reference the pages, try transposing them up a minor 3rd from Em to the more common contemporary key of Gm. Then you'll be ready to simplify the voicings (by extracting guide tones and shell voicings) and enrich them (by adding extensions, passing chords etc.).
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Hi Roscoe Originally Posted by Roscoe T. Claude
Listening and knowing your theory is a great start. It's an absolutely essential start. But it's just a start. Do keep this in mind always.
When you listen to the works of the masters, you're hearing a set of notes. Sounds in time that you can study and learn to play from, yes. But you won't really "get it" until you see and appreciate the options behind their choices, and then create your own options. That's revolutionary.
Revolution is the creation of a viable alternative to an accepted system. If you don't understand the system well, you're just being reactionary or imitative.
So get to know the harmonic, melodic, rhythmic, traditional, dynamic and conventional structures that Monk or Miles could have played, and be aware of how and why they chose to play what they did.
You're not going to get that from a book. You'll only get that over time with a good understanding of what is in the book. And I've said to you, go out and see live music. There are lessons and listening exams every single second of a good live performance.
You'll get this when you really start working/practicing. Hard.
Let me ask you, how much time are you spending asking questions on this forum? Get a timer and clock yourself. Do this for a week; don't change your habits.
Then log off for a week and spend at least twice that amount of time without your computer learning to hear diatonic harmony, dominant and secondary dominant harmony. Use listening to recordings as part of your discipline, and use your voice to keep your fingers honest.
It's my experience that questions can be asked very easily. The mystery is enormous. But the real answers only come from yourself.
When Sco got his teaching job at NYU, we talked about what his approach was going to be. He told me "Y know, there's a saying that Jazz can be learned but it can't be taught. I'm just going to do my best and they'll do their thing and we'll see."
It's up to you to put the steps in motion.
David
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op, mia.
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I thought you were going all Latin on us for a minute there, Alan. Maybe it's a case of qui totum vult totum perdit (he who wants everything, loses everything).
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