the 11th on dominant chords

**Luan** · 06-10-2009, 04:19 PM

I see that a lot of people consider that a full dominant chord may have the 11th as a tension.
I've been taught to never use it on dominant chords (altough I have discovered some exceptions, like using it as a 4th rather than 11 on dominant chords that don't have dominant function) because it sounds a b9 over the third and sounds terrible.
So, why so many people use it?

**JohnW400** · 06-10-2009, 04:33 PM

This is a tricky chord and or course, how we treat 9, 11 and 13's is alway open to some debate. That being said, if you looked at the 11th as being the highest note in the chord then any chord with the 3rg on top could be considered 11 by moving the 3 to 4.

E11 would be E B D A on the first 4 strings x x 2 4 3 5. Some people call this E7 sus4 as well. However it functions very nicely as an 11th.

One thing to condsider is that by sharping the 11th, you can use the 3rd in a lower voice without any concern.

The last thing I 'll say is that if you put the 3rd and the 11th next to eachother it sounds great. The example, G11 voiced from low to high as G F B C or 3x341x.

**derek** · 06-10-2009, 04:41 PM

Maybe because it creates a bunch of tension going to the I? Altered dominants in a ii V are there to create tension, so how tenser can you get?

**Luan** · 06-10-2009, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by JohnW400

This is a tricky chord and or course, how we treat 9, 11 and 13's is alway open to some debate. That being said, if you looked at the 11th as being the highest note in the chord then any chord with the 3rg on top could be considered 11 by moving the 3 to 4.

E11 would be E B D A on the first 4 strings x x 2 4 3 5. Some people call this E7 sus4 as well. However it functions very nicely as an 11th.

One thing to condsider is that by sharping the 11th, you can use the 3rd in a lower voice without any concern.

The last thing I 'll say is that if you put the 3rd and the 11th next to eachother it sounds great. The example, G11 voiced from low to high as G F B C or 3x341x.

If the 11 is there and there is no 3rd, you have a suspension, that is why it should be called sus4. If I see C11 it means that you have the 3rd there theorically.
There isn't any problem with a #11 since it's lydian or lydian b7 and sounds great and you dont have conflict, yeah.
The last one you said is what I wrote "(altough I have discovered some exceptions, like using it as a 4th rather than 11 on dominant chords that don't have dominant function)"
The 11 on a dominant chord is the root of the chord to which the dominant is expected to resolve. If you use it as a 4th just a minor second over the major 3rd it changes the function of the chord, it stabilizes it. It's great for modal harmony, where you have a mixolydian progression, you can use that as I7.
I don't use that for a dominant function chord.

**JohnW400** · 06-10-2009, 05:15 PM

What would you call these two voicings? I use voicings liek these all the time in songs like Spain by Chick Correa.

Low to high:

G D x B C# F# to
F# C# x A# B E

The next chord in the tune is Emi7

**Luan** · 06-10-2009, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by JohnW400

What would you call these two voicings? I use voicings liek these all the time in songs like Spain by Chick Correa.

Low to high:

G D x B C# F# to
F# C# x A# B E

The next chord in the tune is Emi7

Wow, the first one sounds incredible!! very tim miller-ish, chech the thread I made called "great idea for chords", it sounds so great because of the sus2 you have up there.
I would call the first one Gmaj7(#11) and the second one F#7(11).
That one in spain doesn't have a dominant function, that is why that voicing sounds great.
Over the A7 of that tune play this voicing
x A G C# D E

You will see that it sounds great but not dominant at all. In fact you could take that chord as a new tonic function chord!

Edit: it also depends on where you put the chord in the measure (Harmonic rhythm).

**randalljazz** · 06-10-2009, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by JohnW400

What would you call these two voicings? I use voicings liek these all the time in songs like Spain by Chick Correa.

Low to high:

G D x B C# F# to
F# C# x A# B E

The next chord in the tune is Emi7

that's chick throwing in a bit of flamenco sound. your G voicing is a maj7#11 (my score gives just a maj7). the F# voicing you give is pure flamenco. it comes from the tarantas/taranto form, and defies any meaningful theoretical explanation. in the spanish usage, it is in the "key" of F# phrygian, and thus it is the tonic chord, usually preceeded by G B D G B E (you could call it a G6). these two chords alternate, and the cadencial sequence is Bmi-A (or A7)-G-F#.

in the chick corea tune, the Em7 chord which follows is not really related, as it is the beginning of a "normal" chord progression--plain old ii-V7-Imaj7.

Jazzarian · 06-10-2009, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by Luan

I see that a lot of people consider that a full dominant chord may have the 11th as a tension.
I've been taught to never use it on dominant chords (altough I have discovered some exceptions, like using it as a 4th rather than 11 on dominant chords that don't have dominant function) because it sounds a b9 over the third and sounds terrible.
So, why so many people use it?

I'm not getting you. Why would anyone use an 11th instead of a plain dominant7th?????

Certainly one can use 9th, 11th or 13th as a substitute for a V7. I do it all the time.

Interestingly enough, BIAB still translates a 9 to a SUS2 and an 11th to a SUS4. What's up with those Canadians anyway?

**Luan** · 06-10-2009, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Jazzarian

I'm not getting you. Why would anyone use an 11th instead of a plain dominant7th?????

Certainly one can use 9th, 11th or 13th as a substitute for a V7. I do it all the time.

Interestingly enough, BIAB still translates a 9 to a SUS2 and an 11th to a SUS4. What's up with those Canadians anyway?

Here, entertain yourself

Jazzarian · 06-10-2009, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Luan

Here, entertain yourself

How old were you in the picture? Is it recent?

**JohnW400** · 06-11-2009, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by randalljazz

that's chick throwing in a bit of flamenco sound. your G voicing is a maj7#11 (my score gives just a maj7). the F# voicing you give is pure flamenco. it comes from the tarantas/taranto form, and defies any meaningful theoretical explanation. in the spanish usage, it is in the "key" of F# phrygian, and thus it is the tonic chord, usually preceeded by G B D G B E (you could call it a G6). these two chords alternate, and the cadencial sequence is Bmi-A (or A7)-G-F#.

in the chick corea tune, the Em7 chord which follows is not really related, as it is the beginning of a "normal" chord progression--plain old ii-V7-Imaj7.

Yes, Randall, I do know what they are. Thanks. It was just to show Luan and find out what he thinks the F# was.

Here's another nice voicing that goes with the F#

A# E x C# D G (65x321)

Play this one, then the F#11 from above and resolve it to x B x A# C# F#.

**JohnW400** · 06-11-2009, 09:59 AM

Luan,

The thing for me when figuring out what to name the chord is more how does it function istead of what theoretical names to give it. I guess you could say that I ask the question: do the notes fit all of the theory rules , part of them or none of them.

This let's me find all kinds of new voicings that you might not consider if you followed 'strict' theory.

For example, another chord I would call an 11th has the 3rd on top and the 11th in the 'tenor' voice

C F Bb E

This is based on quartal harmony with a 3rd on top.

By the way, that A7 voicing is a nice one. Tough to move it to though. SOmetime I put an F# on top ( A G C# D F#) or I raise the 11th ( A G C# D# F#) This ones easier to move if you barre the A-G with the 3rd finger.

**larry graves** · 07-15-2009, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Luan

I see that a lot of people consider that a full dominant chord may have the 11th as a tension.
I've been taught to never use it on dominant chords (altough I have discovered some exceptions, like using it as a 4th rather than 11 on dominant chords that don't have dominant function) because it sounds a b9 over the third and sounds terrible.
So, why so many people use it?

Luan. To use the eleventh note in a dominant chord,it has to be sharpend.
It is also a flattend fifth,which makes it suitable as a dominant.
In a major chord it would be a suspension 4th [no flattend 7th.to make it
compound]. It's a straight 4th. in a miner eleventh.LG..

**JohnW400** · 07-15-2009, 03:57 PM

[chord]

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|0
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|0
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|x

[/chord]

Larry, what would you call this chord?

A G C# D E

**larry graves** · 07-15-2009, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by JohnW400

[chord]

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|0
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|0
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|x

[/chord]

Larry, what would you call this chord?

A G C# D E

G69,AUG 11".
Amin11"
Dmaj11
Emi13+11"
C#mi 13 flat5,flat9

**Luan** · 07-15-2009, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by larry graves

G69,AUG 11".
Amin11"
Dmaj11
Emi13+11"
C#mi 13 flat5,flat9

Are you sure there?

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-15-2009, 05:58 PM

C'mon, "uncle"! It's an A11th! Illegal in several states, too.

**randalljazz** · 07-15-2009, 06:04 PM

you're a good sport, big daddy!

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-15-2009, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by randalljazz

you're a good sport, big daddy!

That 11th note better be just passin' through, y'all here?

**randalljazz** · 07-15-2009, 06:27 PM

C7...FΔ7

F....E
B....C
Bb...A
E.....F
C....(X)
(X)..(X)

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-15-2009, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by randalljazz

C7...FΔ7

F....E
B....C
Bb...A
E.....F
C....(X)
(X)..(X)

Now play that on a pedal steel and bend all the notes.

**JohnW400** · 07-15-2009, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by randalljazz

C7...FΔ7

F....E
B....C
Bb...A
E.....F
C....(X)
(X)..(X)

Seriously though, the C E Bb B resolves nicely to Bma9 (B,D#,A#, C#)

I use the variation G, E, Bb , B all the time as an 11b9 with the b9 it the bass. Nice and spicy

**voelker** · 07-16-2009, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by randalljazz

that's chick throwing in a bit of flamenco sound. your G voicing is a maj7#11 (my score gives just a maj7). the F# voicing you give is pure flamenco. it comes from the tarantas/taranto form, and defies any meaningful theoretical explanation. in the spanish usage, it is in the "key" of F# phrygian, and thus it is the tonic chord, usually preceeded by G B D G B E (you could call it a G6). these two chords alternate, and the cadencial sequence is Bmi-A (or A7)-G-F#.

in the chick corea tune, the Em7 chord which follows is not really related, as it is the beginning of a "normal" chord progression--plain old ii-V7-Imaj7.

Crazy Spaniards; why wouldn’t it just be called D? Gmaj7 sounds good with the #11, so it starts on the IV chord. And the Em7 is related, it’s the ii of D. And then he makes the other minor chords (iii, vi, vii) dominant.

|GM7| |F#7| |Em7| |A7| |DM7| |GM7| |C#7| |F#7| |Bm| |B7|
--IV-----iii7---- ii----- V---- I----- IV---- vii7--- iii7--- vi--- vi7

In the key of D the A7 is the V chord and it still sounds good with a perfect 4th (A11). So that is rule I don’t worry about to much. The most important thing is the feel/mood of the song and the dynamics. If it sounds good play it. In the middle ages the #4 interval was forbidden because it was so unstable. People had to get used to it over time. I like the perfect 4th on a vi7 chord. And even with the 3rd it still sounds suspended. (Maybe that was the BIAB reasoning) Try these progressions; the A11 (vi7 chord) always creates a change in mood.

|C| |A11| |Dm11| |Cmaj7-A11| |Dm7-Dm9| |Dm7-G7|

|C9 / Eb9 / C9 //| x4 |A11| x4 |Am7| x4

**larry graves** · 07-16-2009, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Luan

Are you sure there?

There are very few sure things out there Luan, a rose by any other name.etc.
Having said that, it's a cool chord-- must be the open string's.
Ive been playing it as part of a blue's progression in G, I think it's here
to stay...thank's..LG.

**randalljazz** · 07-16-2009, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by voelker

Crazy Spaniards; why wouldn’t it just be called D? Gmaj7 sounds good with the #11, so it starts on the IV chord. And the Em7 is related, it’s the ii of D. And then he makes the other minor chords (iii, vi, vii) dominant.

|GM7| |F#7| |Em7| |A7| |DM7| |GM7| |C#7| |F#7| |Bm| |B7|
--IV-----iii7---- ii----- V---- I----- IV---- vii7--- iii7--- vi--- vi7

because that is not what it sounds like. the G-F# is clearly in the flamenco feel, armando referring to his heritage.

800 years of moorish occupation during the height of that civilisation left an indelible stamp on the spanish culture; meanwhile, northern europe languished through the dark and middle ages, slowly developing the musical language that spawned our major/minor system.

different tradition. hear it for what it is.