The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    you can use the m6 dim off the dominant chord's 5th. so play Dm6 dim for G7. There's a scale called the dominant 7th diminished scale that is in Alan's book. Also a thing he calls "Monk Moves." so you should be in good hands with the book
    I was going to suggest the same thing. Generally, you can use m6 diminished for dominant chords in 2 ways:

    1. With the m6 diminished that starts on the 5th of the dominant chord as described above for dominant chords that serve as a tonic or otherwise do not resolve up a fourth ( i.e., when they don't function as a V7 chord). This will produce the dominant #11 sound.

    2. With the m6 diminished that starts on the b9 of the dominant chord for dominant chords that do resolve up a fourth ( i.e., when they function as a V7 chord). This will produce the dominant alt sound.
    These are general rules. Let your ear be the guide. It's important to learn all the m6 diminished movements all over the neck and apply them in these 2 ways over the dominants. Also experiment with borrowing notes. You will learn more about that from the Kingstone book.

    BTW, what Barry Harris workshop book are you referring to?

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M.
    I was going to suggest the same thing. Generally, you can use m6 diminished for dominant chords in 2 ways:

    1. With the m6 diminished that starts on the 5th of the dominant chord as described above for dominant chords that serve as a tonic or otherwise do not resolve up a fourth ( i.e., when they don't function as a V7 chord). This will produce the dominant #11 sound.

    2. With the m6 diminished that starts on the b9 of the dominant chord for dominant chords that do resolve up a fourth ( i.e., when they function as a V7 chord). This will produce the dominant alt sound.
    These are general rules. Let your ear be the guide. It's important to learn all the m6 diminished movements all over the neck and apply them in these 2 ways over the dominants. Also experiment with borrowing notes. You will learn more about that from the Kingstone book.

    BTW, what Barry Harris workshop book are you referring to?
    Actually no. 1 creates a Dominant 9 sound, not #11.

  4. #28

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    Another cool one I learned from the second workshop book is a major6th chord a whole step below your dominant chord for like a 7sus sound. I keep meaning to use it, but I never do!

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    Another cool one I learned from the second workshop book is a major6th chord a whole step below your dominant chord for like a 7sus sound. I keep meaning to use it, but I never do!
    You might not think of it in this way, but anytime you play an A9sus

    A D E G B

    G6/A = A9sus or for those who prefer Em7/A = A9sus

    Same basic game as Em7/C = Cma9 or Em7b5/C = C9

    Preferences for viewing as a singular extension or a bunch of this over that relationships
    or combinations of both.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Actually no. 1 creates a Dominant 9 sound, not #11.
    So, superimposing a Dm6 diminished scale over a G dominant chord you would have:

    G, A, Bb, B, C#, D, E, F, correct? You could spell either G9 or G7#11.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M.
    So, superimposing a Dm6 diminished scale over a G dominant chord you would have:

    G, A, Bb, B, C#, D, E, F, correct? You could spell either G9 or G7#11.
    The OP was talking about chords and the harmonic system, in that system we would say the Dm6 chord = a G9 sound, as detailed in Alan Kingstone’s book. The C# you refer to would be a C# diminished chord within the Dm6/dim chord scale. It’s really just a passing chord.
    Last edited by grahambop; 07-07-2018 at 05:41 AM.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    The OP was talking about chords and the harmonic system, in that system we would say the Dm6 chord = a G9 sound, as detailed in Alan Kingstone’s book. The C# you refer to would be a C# diminished chord within the Dm6/dim chord scale. It’s really just a passing chord.
    Yes, that makes sense. Another way to think of it would be that the C# could be borrowed to get the #11.

  9. #33

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    Alan’s book also has Dom7b5/dim scales, so you could use those as well.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Alan’s book also has Dom7b5/dim scales, so you could use those as well.
    Aha! This is why it's so important to revisit this stuff over and over again! There it is, on p. 4! Clearly, that is the correct way to go as it properly places the added chromatic note where it is supposed to be. Sorry for the bad information and confusion.

  11. #35

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    Actually your idea of using Dm6 with a borrowed C# note is interesting, you could borrow it through the whole scale and see what it sounds like over a G7.

  12. #36

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    After ruminating about this thread during my bike ride, I am still somewhat confused. I see (now) that there is a separate BH scale for dom b5dim, but from a scalar perspective, b5 and #11 are different. I have always thought of dom #11 sounds as deriving from the melodic minor scale based on the fifth of the dominant chord, or, if applying the BH scale theory, a m6dim scale based on the fifth. By that logic, a dom#11 scale has a natural fifth and a #11, where the BH dom b5dim scale has a b5 and a b6.

    Graham, am I analyzing this incorrectly?

  13. #37

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    I’m not really a theory hound, to be honest I don’t worry myself too much about rules like that!

    I just see the 6/dim scales as a very handy way of covering lots of harmonic movements by basically just learning 2 sets of chords to start with. i.e. maj6/dim and min6/dim.

  14. #38

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    You’re going to suffer a lot of confusion by trying to relate all the Barry Harris stuff to common approaches taught today. Nothing wrong with learning both ways, but trying to mesh them together won’t always work seamlessly.

    I’ve never seen anything about a #11 or melodic minor in his materials, yet his approach is entirely complete

    edit to add: that’s the great part about different approaches is that theyre NOT trhe same and give you different sounds!

  15. #39

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    After yesterday's discussion, I started to dig into the dom b5 diminshed chords. It's helpful and interesting to see that the drop 2 chords are symmetrical, with 2 shapes on each string set. They appear in the Appendix of the Kingstone book, but I pasted them in place within the text for better reference:

    Barry Harris chord movements - My Romance-dom-b5-jpg

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petimar
    I do have Barry Harris' first workshop book

    Petimar, what is this book you are referring to, and how do I get a copy?

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M.
    Petimar, what is this book you are referring to, and how do I get a copy?
    He’s referring to the workbook that comes with this dvd set: Jazz School Online - Barry Harris Workshop Video

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M.
    After yesterday's discussion, I started to dig into the dom b5 diminshed chords. It's helpful and interesting to see that the drop 2 chords are symmetrical, with 2 shapes on each string set. They appear in the Appendix of the Kingstone book, but I pasted them in place within the text for better reference:

    Barry Harris chord movements - My Romance-dom-b5-jpg
    Yes, it is very interesting. So each diminished chord gives us 4 dominants, but only two possible 7b5 chords. why? because 7b5 chords a tritone apart are the same notes. That’s why there’s only 2 shapes for 4 inversions

  19. #43

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    another thing...if jot obvious already, the first 4 notes belong to C7, the second half of the scale belongs to Gb7


    There’s cool connections everywhere with this stuff