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  1. #1

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    Ken

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Yes.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  4. #3

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    I haven't used it, but I have seen a few of his tuition videos, and they go a little fast for me. If you are a reasonably good jazz player, he will definitely take you to a higher level. Well, that's my thoughts, but I really don't know what it's like to be a registered member of his classes. I really love his playing, though.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    Yes.

    It would be great to take one of his comping videos and discuss it, to get ideas on how to use on standards.
    His videos are jam packed with info.
    ken

  6. #5

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    What's the one where he shows how he plays the changes of "TWNBAY" in five positions? I went to his site today and looked at the videos but didn't see any that seemed like that one. Am I confusing him with someone else???
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007 View Post
    It would be great to take one of his comping videos and discuss it, to get ideas on how to use on standards.
    His videos are jam packed with info.
    ken
    That's pretty much how his video lessons works already. He has a lot of standards in his chord melody and tune based lessons. Pick a tune learn it, then re-listen to his video as he explains it. What you learn from watching the video after you know it will be different than what you learned before you could play it. I watched some his videos many times and experimented with what was in the video, watch again I discover more each time, because I've learned more and ears grown so now capable of understanding more. It's that process that teaches there are no shortcuts to growing your ears and the joy you get when you say to yourself "I get it now".
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    What's the one where he shows how he plays the changes of "TWNBAY" in five positions? I went to his site today and looked at the videos but didn't see any that seemed like that one. Am I confusing him with someone else???
    Maybe it is available to students that pay a subscription to his library of materials and not one currently listed for individual sale.
    Last edited by srs; 12-28-2015 at 05:58 PM.

  9. #8

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  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    What is TWNBAY??
    "There Will Never Be Another You"

  11. #10

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    Thanks. But what does TWNBAY mean?

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by srs View Post
    Maybe it is available to students that pay a subscription to his library of materials and not one currently listed for individual sale.
    Ah, that could be it. I couldn't find it on the site but I've never been a subscriber----it's something I saw a snippet / preview of on YouTube and now I can't figure out what the name of it was.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  13. #12

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    Ah, here's a bit of it. It was from a podcast....

    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  14. #13

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    I sent Barry an email. He'll get back to me soon, I'm sure. He's great about that. (Unless he's away for the holidays...) I'll pass on what he tells me----namely, how the rest of us can learn what he taught 55bar!
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  15. #14

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    I find this one interesting in many ways - over an hour long:


  16. #15

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    Barry got back to me fast:

    >>>Yes, the lesson is called 5 Position Study. I believe it’s in the Essentials Folder of my Subscription site.<<<<

    That's why I couldn't find it among the videos, as it is subscription lesson. I'll have to look into a month of that at least---will be interesting to see how it goes along with Richie Zellon's fingerings. (I am committed to giving Richie---and myself via his teaching---a full year of daily work on his approach. So that comes first.)

    O, Barry sends best wishes to all the members here. I passed along good wishes for the new year to him on behalf of us all.
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 12-28-2015 at 07:08 PM.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    What's the one where he shows how he plays the changes of "TWNBAY" in five positions? I went to his site today and looked at the videos but didn't see any that seemed like that one. Am I confusing him with someone else???

    Only some of his lessons are for sale all are available via subscription. He has a few free lessons on Youtube.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Barry got back to me fast:

    >>>Yes, the lesson is called 5 Position Study. I believe it’s in the Essentials Folder of my Subscription site.<<<<

    That's why I couldn't find it among the videos, as it is subscription lesson. I'll have to look into a month of that at least---will be interesting to see how it goes along with Richie Zellon's fingerings. (I am committed to giving Richie---and myself via his teaching---a full year of daily work on his approach. So that comes first.)

    O, Barry sends best wishes to all the members here. I passed along good wishes for the new year to him on behalf of us all.
    Good sleuthing for a definitive answer. I was hoping it was for sale as an individual video lesson.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Barry got back to me fast:

    >>>Yes, the lesson is called 5 Position Study. I believe it’s in the Essentials Folder of my Subscription site.<<<<

    That's why I couldn't find it among the videos, as it is subscription lesson. I'll have to look into a month of that at least---will be interesting to see how it goes along with Richie Zellon's fingerings. (I am committed to giving Richie---and myself via his teaching---a full year of daily work on his approach. So that comes first.)

    O, Barry sends best wishes to all the members here. I passed along good wishes for the new year to him on behalf of us all.

    Barry's lesson is Another You / 5 Position Study and it's about chords not scale fingering.

    All the scale fingers I've ever seen are I'd guess 95% the same. Some will stretch where others shift usually based on one note and usually dealing with G and B string. I've looked a little at Richie's fingering and that's the only difference I see is patterns I'd put a note on the G string he's putting on B.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  20. #19

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    I'm with Barry too.

    His lessons are clear, thorough and in four defined streams/"folders" that you can work through.

    They are : - Essential lesson folder

    -Tune based folder

    - Topic driven folder

    - Chord melody folder

    These all come under the one umbrella .....IOW you don't sign up for any one folder ....your subscription
    allows you access to all the lessons and it's up to you to pick what you want/need to work on.

    The PDF's that go with each lesson have become more comprehensive as he's built up to the 100+ he has
    available. But don't expect everything he plays to be transcribed.
    Bear in mind that these lessons are pretty in depth and Barry is no slouch......in fact he's fast.

    Very recently he's introduced a new system for viewing the the lessons with a slow-down and loop function.
    I think this now makes his material more accessible to more players.

    The lesson working through "There Will Never Be Another You" ......AKA TWBAY is not one of the growing
    number of individual lessons that you can buy as a download.

    Here's Barry's intro text to the TWNBAY vid.

    5 Position Study :

    "One of the most often requested videos is ready for prime time This lesson uses the tune "There Will Never be Another You" to demonstrate my methods of tune learning and gaining fretboard knowledge. PDF file is included and contains all chord voicings in all of the 5 positions studied."


    If you wanted to see if it's right for you, just sign up for the 3 day option and have a gander. [very inexpensive option]
    Last edited by Moonray; 12-28-2015 at 10:25 PM.

  21. #20
    Yes Barry is a monster player, like I said the PDF's aren't even enough, you need to take notes becausethere is so much in in every video it's insane!!!
    Ken

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonray View Post
    I'm with Barry too.

    His lessons are clear, thorough and in four defined streams/"folders" that you can work through.


    If you wanted to see if it's right for you, just sign up for the 3 day option and have a gander. [very inexpensive option]
    Great idea. Thanks for the lowdown----that was clear, concise, and thorough.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  23. #22

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    Ha ha.....nice one Mark .....not qualities that I'm known for when trying to
    put ideas in writing .....but with a cold one or three and guitars at the ready.........well.....who knows.
    Last edited by Moonray; 12-30-2015 at 12:48 AM. Reason: hate bad spelling...

  24. #23

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    I think he's a fine teacher, player, and super knowledgeable about music in general and guitar.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    I find this one interesting in many ways - over an hour long:

    That video sums up so many important things that every jazz guitarist can explore quite easily, and this in a musical context. It has unlocked a few mysteries for me already and it has to be said, Barry has a great approach and communicates his ideas so well.

    Cheers,

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    Barry's lesson is Another You / 5 Position Study and it's about chords not scale fingering.
    It's true but the main goal of the study is to be able to play scales (and ultimately, lines) all over the fretboard. The reasoning being that if you're able to visualize chords in all positions and know the corresponding scales for each shape, you will never be lost. This has helped me a lot, and I feel like I'm having better command of my guitar thanks to this.

    I've subscribed to his site in the past, and I'm going to subscribe again. Great lessons and great value, if you're capable of working without direct guidance (although Barry does quickly reply to emails if you have questions).

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by srs View Post
    Maybe it is available to students that pay a subscription to his library of materials and not one currently listed for individual sale.

    So I am waking this thread alive again, cause I really wanted to ask what the purpose of that 5 position study is. I talked to Barry briefly, and was told to improve my comping I should as a first step(as a newb) do that study and also learn the secret jazz chord. Not that I doubt the study at all, I just want to be sure I get the most out of it. I recognise many of the shapes from either drop 2/3 or shell voicings.

  28. #27

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    The objective of the 5 position approach is to direct you towards the mastery of the fingerboard. Most guitarists struggle when their hand lands in a certain position, in a certain key. They run out of room. They paint themselves into a corner. Even accomplished players. Knowing Eb, for example, in all areas of the neck, is essential to gaining the freedom required to improvise. So the 5 position ( which covers the whole neck) approach in all major (with related modes) and minor melodic keys is absolutely necessary. Barry gets you to work on this and there is no other remedy if you want to be an accomplished jazz guitarist. Once you're able to connect these positions, you will be breaking through many barriers.

    Cheers,

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fazmaster View Post
    The objective of the 5 position approach is to direct you towards the mastery of the fingerboard. Most guitarists struggle when their hand lands in a certain position, in a certain key. They run out of room. They paint themselves into a corner. Even accomplished players. Knowing Eb, for example, in all areas of the neck, is essential to gaining the freedom required to improvise. So the 5 position ( which covers the whole neck) approach in all major (with related modes) and minor melodic keys is absolutely necessary. Barry gets you to work on this and there is no other remedy if you want to be an accomplished jazz guitarist. Once you're able to connect these positions, you will be breaking through many barriers.

    Cheers,
    So when you are finished with Eb, you just take all the positions and transpose them to the next tune, ideally in another key, and do the exact same thing again? With the exact same chord voices? Or do you start from scratch and locate correct type of chord voicings for that tune? I mean it would probably mostly be about changing the extensions to fit the melody notes, if that's the case.

    I guess it's just about taking CAGED/5 position a step further then. In each position you should know all your chord voicings(like the PDF teaches you), the relevant scale shapes, arpeggios etc. So you are basically grouping it all in 5 positions. Which is how I have thought about it lately, cause it's a lot better to get an overview. Correct?


    Edit: I just went through all the I chords in the study, and guess what, it was position 1=C, 2= A, 3= G 4=D, so CAGED all over. That was great to see. It means that the work I have been doing in the Joe Elliott Introduction to jazz soloing, is basically Barry. He also labels it as pattern 1-5. So by continuing the book I will learn the melodic minor in all the positions, according to Barry's method as well

    I know Barry isn’t using arpeggios a lot, but still, learning the melodic minor and major scale in 5 different patterns is the exact same :-)
    Last edited by znerken; 12-09-2018 at 06:13 AM.

  30. #29

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    I like to go through the cycle of fifths instead of key to key. And yes, the CAGED system is a different but similar way of getting through a key on all areas of the fingerboard and is based on basic chord shapes. The way I see it, for example Eb, start playing the scale on string five, fret 6 using your pinky. Then start with your middle finger. You'll have two positions covered. Do the same at string 6, fret eleven. The fifth position will basically come when you start in this position using your first finger and extend past the twelfth fret (F minor also mirrored on fret one of the fingerboard)

    ...and yes, melodic minor is essenetial (using the same method) if you're going to properly deal with altered dominant, flat 9, half diminished and yes, minor chords.

    Cheers,

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fazmaster View Post
    I like to go through the cycle of fifths instead of key to key. And yes, the CAGED system is a different but similar way of getting through a key on all areas of the fingerboard and is based on basic chord shapes. The way I see it, for example Eb, start playing the scale on string five, fret 6 using your pinky. Then start with your middle finger. You'll have two positions covered. Do the same at string 6, fret eleven. The fifth position will basically come when you start in this position using your first finger and extend past the twelfth fret (F minor also mirrored on fret one of the fingerboard)

    ...and yes, melodic minor is essenetial (using the same method) if you're going to properly deal with altered dominant, flat 9, half diminished and yes, minor chords.

    Cheers,

    I think CAGED is 100% identical, except the name. In fact, I did a random test on two of Barry's major fingerings from his book, and they are identical to how I know them. He calls then position X(insert number), and I call them position Y(insert letter). I think that's great, because it makes even easier to start with for 5 position people

    However. my question was more regarding the position study in terms of voicings. How do you take that study onwards to another tune? Do you reuse the voicings etc. I mean not all the melody notes in a different tune will fit his extensions.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    I think CAGED is 100% identical, except the name. In fact, I did a random test on two of Barry's major fingerings from his book, and they are identical to how I know them. He calls then position X(insert number), and I call them position Y(insert letter). I think that's great, because it makes even easier to start with for 5 position people

    However. my question was more regarding the position study in terms of voicings. How do you take that study onwards to another tune? Do you reuse the voicings etc. I mean not all the melody notes in a different tune will fit his extensions.
    So in each position, which melodic minor "shapes/modes" are mostly used? In for example position 1, Eb Major, do you use the MM starting on the 6th string pinky? So basically the one most relevant to the dominant and the altered scale. So ring finger starts on Bb on 6th string(V chord). And also I guess the one relevant to the secret jazz chord. Which will always be one specific shape, no matter where you play the chord, if I am not mistaken?

  33. #32

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    One thing I am not grasping is why the F dorian or F melodic minor fits over all the chords. Is it as simple as the fact that if you make chords from either of those scale, they will fit the chords?

    E7(#9,b13) = E G# D C G

    F Dorian = F G Ab Bb C D Eb

    No E in F dorian o.O
    Last edited by znerken; 12-09-2018 at 01:13 PM.

  34. #33

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    I think you're off a semi tone here. F melodic is related to E7 type chords, not Eb.

    F mel min starting on E

    E F (b9) G (#9) Ab (3rd) Bb (b5) C (#5/b13) D (7th) E (R)

    F dorian is pushing the boundaries because E is not part of the scale but oddly, it works providing your time is solid..



    transposes a semi tone lower for Eb7 type chords
    Last edited by Fazmaster; 12-09-2018 at 01:14 PM. Reason: Typo

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fazmaster View Post
    I think your email off a semi tone here. F melodic is related to E7 type chords, not Eb.

    F mel min starting on E

    E F (b9) G (#9) Ab (3rd) Bb (b5) C (#5/b13) D (7th) E (R)

    F dorian is pushing the boundaries because E is not part of the scale but oddly, it works providing your time is solid..



    transposes a semi tone lower for Eb7 type chords

    Haha I just fixed it. I used Eb, because I know E doesn't fit. So it fit's perfectly over F mel min then, that's good. So each of the chords will fit perfectly over at least F dorian or F mm?

    Testet with for example Dm11(b5), and it fit perfect. Nice. So the easiest way to know which scale, I guess, is to think about what chord that Secret Jazz Chord would represent, if it were the first(dorian chord). So if you are playing a Dm11(b5), you know that if it were a dorian, it would be Fm6/9, so you know you can use F melodic minor or F dorian.

  36. #35

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    So I watched Barry's Line Connection video, and I now understand that in a way he takes CAGED a step further? He always identifies which chord scale to use, by the relevant drop 2 chord being underneath the position he is in. So he has 5 positions, and 5 places to play F Dorian, for example. Now, does he then have 5 positions for all the other 6 chords in Eb-major? Which of course would be the same positions, just different ways to identify them.


    Wouldn't you get the same effect, by just using CAGED, or 5 positions, and identifying them by which key you are in? You are in Ebmaj, position 1, you know all your arpeggios, so you know how to target chord tones, and you know your major and melodic minor scales, so you know how to use notes besides chord tones?

  37. #36

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    I'm not too sure how Barry does it. I did the 3 day trial on his site which was nice. Great player. But I was looking for some very specific stuff that wasn't necessarily on his site, for me.

    I use the 5 CAGED shapes(ala Pat Martino and Howard Roberts, and many others). I also use 3NPS from plenty of rock playing in the day But Caged is my go to with scales, Arps and even pents when I really want to hit the changes.

    I don't think about starting on a different finger, I just see each shape completely and in my mind highlight the root note(of the mode) and chord of that particular mode. But I have to see everything across the neck-in this case with CAGED I see 5 shapes each covering one of 5 chord shapes for a type of chord(Maj, min, Dom).
    I've worked this out For Major/Ionian(Tonic, and often group vi I and iii in this), Dorian(subdominant-ii IV) and Mixolidian(dominant V vii).

    It's kinda like Herb Ellis but I don't have the Dorian and Mixolidian shapes solely off the E and A shapes. I've worked them out for me with all 5 shapes. In the end this was the easiest way to make the changes in my improv.

  38. #37
    Barry's lessons are amazing that's for sure and for only $19.99 a month its an amazing deal

  39. #38

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    Okay, it's been a while. Been working with the 5 position study and the SJC. I am not quite sure I grasp the use of the SJC yet though? Well, specifically about the scale approach. Okay, so I have found out what the different dorian and melodic minor shapes are underneath each voicing, but

    Why is this so important? You still got to be aware what you are playing? So if you are using the voicing for an alternated dominant chord, you still would think melodic minor 1 step above? If you are using it as a dorian chord, you still got to think either X dorian, or x dorian in relation to Y major? How did you all approach the SJC? Barry says it is one of the most important thing he did to unlock fretboard mastery and knowledge. How come I don't see it yet? I am probably the one to blame, but a friendly push in the right direction would be much appreciated!

  40. #39

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    What is the SJC? sorry for my ignorance

  41. #40

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    As a joke I was going to suggest ‘secret jazz chord’ but maybe it is!


  42. #41
    Yes the Secret jazz chord

  43. #42

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    A bit of googling suggests this is somewhat similar to Pat Martino’s ‘convert everything to minor’ approach.

    If so then yes you would need to ‘convert’ each time.

    I don’t know much about Barry Greene’s approach, but I’ve dabbled with the Pat Martino thing and it does get easier eventually, you start to associate the right lines with the right chords without having to mentally ‘convert to minor’ each time.

  44. #43

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    great!! .thanks!!!

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    A bit of googling suggests this is somewhat similar to Pat Martino’s ‘convert everything to minor’ approach.

    If so then yes you would need to ‘convert’ each time.

    I don’t know much about Barry Greene’s approach, but I’ve dabbled with the Pat Martino thing and it does get easier eventually, you start to associate the right lines with the right chords without having to mentally ‘convert to minor’ each time.

    SJC is secret jazz chord.


    SJC is one chord grip, which can be 6 chords. And you can play both X melodic minor and X dorian over all those 6 chords.


    It's probably inspired by Pat, but not in the way you suggest, I think? Sign up for a free trial and watch the video on SJC. It's a sweet voicing. You probably already use it for either altered dominants or Ø711.

  46. #45

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    I found a true fire pdf which suggests you play the same minor scales on the 6 various chord types yielded by the ‘secret chord’. That is in fact very similar to Martino’s minor conversion approach.

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I found a true fire pdf which suggests you play the same minor scales on the 6 various chord types yielded by the ‘secret chord’. That is in fact very similar to Martino’s minor conversion approach.
    Okay. Yes that true fire file is correct. Mm and Dorian.



    I think my problem is understanding why having two scales underneath the chord is so extremely “good”, and how that helped Barry so extremely. That is due to my lack of understanding though, so I hoped someone could help me understand it.

  48. #47

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    I assume it just gives a few more sounds/flavours/extensions etc. But I don’t really know what Barry’s reasons are.

    Must admit I tend to think of ‘minor’ as one general entity, the differences between MM and Dorian etc. just being details. I tend to use a lot of chromatic passing notes in lines, which I suppose blurs these distinctions a bit. I guess I’m always trying to think in terms of melodic lines rather than scales as such.

    But I have found Martino’s minor thing useful, like him I always found it easier to hear and play minor lines for some reason. So using them to unlock dominant and altered dominant sounds in particular was a big step forwards for me.

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I assume it just gives a few more sounds/flavours/extensions etc. But I don’t really know what Barry’s reasons are.

    Must admit I tend to think of ‘minor’ as one general entity, the differences between MM and Dorian etc. just being details. I tend to use a lot of chromatic passing notes in lines, which I suppose blurs these distinctions a bit. I guess I’m always trying to think in terms of melodic lines rather than scales as such.

    But I have found Martino’s minor thing useful, like him I always found it easier to hear and play minor lines for some reason. So using them to unlock dominant and altered dominant sounds in particular was a big step forwards for me.

    Anyone currently using Barry Greene's site?-screenshot-2018-12-30-16-01-16-jpg

  50. #49

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    I have several of Barry's videos. I have found them to be some of the best "bang for the buck" instructional materials out there. I appreciate how Barry shares his thought process during these videos. I too find more and more useful stuff on repeated viewings. His "Comping the Blues" is loaded with ideas.

    Any more thoughts/opinions on Barry's secret chord video? I don't have that one...yet.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes View Post
    I have several of Barry's videos. I have found them to be some of the best "bang for the buck" instructional materials out there. I appreciate how Barry shares his thought process during these videos. I too find more and more useful stuff on repeated viewings. His "Comping the Blues" is loaded with ideas.

    Any more thoughts/opinions on Barry's secret chord video? I don't have that one...yet.
    Get it. It’s great. Well I haven’t been able to use the chord as major, minor or sus yet, but at least you get 4 places to play a altered and a normal dominant, also a min7b5 with 11. I use caged as Barry does, so I have connected each voicing to one major shape, and one melodic minor shape. The chord is just a closed or drop2 voicing btw.