Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 31 12311 ... LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 771
  1. #1
    What is the best book to create more chord movement in jazz standards?

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    Ken, I really like Alan Kingstone's book on the Barry Harris method for guitar.

  4. #3
    I have it but I don't think it really gives good examples on how to use it over standards.
    Ken

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    I have it but I don't think it really gives good examples on how to use it over standards.
    Ken

    I used to feel that way about the book, but then picked up same thing from hearing a piano player talk about it and wrote it out myself and the whole concept fell into place and just a matter of woodsheding it. I recently pull out Alan's book and now I can see the info was there.

    I've been away from this site for awhile and what I learned was to stop looking for books and such. You read books about the great players and how they learned no one just gave them example, they were taught concept and left to figure things out on their own. I've been in the mode while I've been gone and learned the process of finding the answer is the real teacher. The piano player explained it a bit different than the Allen's Barry Harris, but after putting in the seat time and seeing what's going on the answer is the same. I fact I think I learned more getting it from a piano player because I had to workout all the guitar side on my own. As Budda said.... The journey is the reward.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    If I may seek a clarification, what exactly do you mean by "creating chord movement to use on standards"?

    I do transcriptions quite regularly and have a Sibelius library of nearly a hundred standards. Classically trained from the age of twelve or so, I have a good foundation not only in notation but also familiarity with classical and jazz guitar and styles across the centuries. I quote my background only to suggest a good foundation in traditional harmony, which is not terribly different from what happens in most jazz music. I will refer to a chord melody style arrangement, realizing of course that if you are playing in a band, the bass player handles the bass line and the rest of the band the harmony and melody line.

    The goal of creating chord movement needs some sort of definition. In terms of classical music and even jazz, it is voice leading that creates movement and harmony in music. Remember that the critical elements of the voices in chord melody style playing are the bass line, the melody, and the inner voices reflected in the harmony. A deep knowledge of chord construction is fundamental but easy. Chords are constructed in thirds, sometimes in fourths (quartal harmony), plus various "colors" - ninths, elevenths, thirteenths. Major, minor, minor seventh, diminished - these all determine the quality of individual chords. So it is very easy to learn fundamental chords "to create movement" in the standards, but I would suggest Joe Pass' approach to jazz chords and he has a method book on this .

    But what creates the "movement" in the chords in the progression in a standard? Start with the basic elements - bass and melody, the latter usually being played in a chord melody arrangement on the upper strings. Concrete example - a song like Stardust in the key of E. The melody and harmony begin with a tension and a resolution - "And / now the purple dusk of / twilight time - / - steals cross the meadows of my / heart..." . In the first measure on the pick up beat the chord is a B7 or an Ebdim7, then E. An A7b5 follows, then G#7 and then C#9. The rudiments of the bass line are the root of the chord. The melody begins with the F# in first position or alternatively on the B string with the Ebdim7 fingered at the fifth fret. Where you choose to play the melody over the bass helps determine the movement of those two lines. The inner harmony and movement result from other characteristics of the chord - the third, fourth, fifth, sixth,...etc.

    The melody is what it is - at least if you are reproducing the classic melody. The bass is what it is. The movement is the combination of the voice leading of those lines plus the inner voices of the harmony. Essentially it is all about creating tension and resolution. That is where the art and technical facility come into play. Note that the "colors" help to define the architecture of the voice leading and may not always themselves be the melody notes.

    Beyond that and taking into account the importance of tone and rhythm elements, that is what determines in my view the movement. It is the interplay of the voices. Pardon me if this post sounds too rudimentary, but I'm not sure what else one can say about chord movement.
    Last edited by targuit; 11-10-2015 at 06:31 PM.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    I have it but I don't think it really gives good examples on how to use it over standards.
    Ken

    Dont give up on old Barry yet, his stuff is exactly what you're looking for.

    also quartal Harmony through the scale works really well.


    P.s. A little Barry hint

    dm7 = F6 + e dim

    g7 = Abm6 (I prefer to think f half dim, or b7 half dim) + g dim

    Cmaj7 = C6 + b dim


    start on dm7/f6..... Then move up through the inversions, f6/e dim/f6/e dim/f6

    then play Abm6 as the g7, resolve to C.


    good luck!!!

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    the way that barry harris' picture of standard-harmony interlocks with/fits into/maps onto/supervenes on top of/breaks open standard standard-harmony is a very special and fine thing.

    maj and min become aspects of one sound (Bbmaj and Gmin (in Bb) are one sound; Ebmaj and Cm7 are one sound (in Bb); Bbmaj and Dm7 are one sound (in Bb)

    Dom7 and AltDom7 are (in a crucial sense) the same sound (just placed on different roots in the tonality). that sound is the min6 sound.

    so its all about the difference between the min7th sound (Gm7 in Bb) and the min 6th sound (Cm6 in Bb) (for goodness sake!) - or the maj 6 sound (Bbmaj6 in Bb) and the min 6th sound (Cm6 in Bb) if you prefer (this is probably a better way to think of it).

    these two sounds include all half diminished sounds - dom 7 b5 sounds - other alt dom sounds - maj 7 # 11 sounds.



    so l V l (Bbmaj7 / F7/ Bbmaj7....) - could be

    Gm7 - Gbm6 - Bbmaj6

    Dm7- Ebm6 - Bbmaj6

    Ebmaj7 # 11 - Ebm6 - Dm7

    etc.

    Both Bbmaj6 and Cm6 (in Bb) consist in a harmonized scale formed by building triads off an 8 note scale (Bb maj with added note between 5 and 6; Cm6 with added note between 5 and 6). this 'chord scale' alternates between inversions of Bb6 or Cm6 and a single diminshed passing chord. the moment you hear this 'scale' you should appreciate how fundamental it is.

    and it generates - or makes room for at least - endless forward motion...
    Last edited by Groyniad; 11-10-2015 at 06:40 PM.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    Dont give up on old Barry yet, his stuff is exactly what you're looking for.
    That's one of the things I'm thinking about starting on when the New Year rolls around. I've solved my picking problem, so I'm ending this year ironing the kinks of things that once snagged me and learning some tunes / solos. I'm putting myself into the position to absorb a method like this now. (He thinks...)

  10. #9
    Can some make a video of how they would use the Barry Harris Concept on a well known standard, I just don'y see it yet...I know you can use the diminished in between chords but still need some help.
    Thx
    Ken

  11. #10
    Watch Jack Wilkins play chords, he never isn't moving

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Harmonic Mechanisms by Van Eps is the complete guitar answer. For the complete musical answer, listen to Nelson Riddle, especially the Songbook series with Ella, or even the Linda Ronstadt CDs.

  13. #12
    Wasn't Van Eps a 7 string guitarist?
    Ken

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Voice Leading for Guitar, John Thomas. Berklee Press.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    Voice Leading for Guitar, John Thomas. Berklee Press.
    and here is a link to Chapter 1:

    Voice Leading For Guitar - guitar chords

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I used to feel that way about the book, but then picked up same thing from hearing a piano player talk about it and wrote it out myself and the whole concept fell into place and just a matter of woodsheding it. I recently pull out Alan's book and now I can see the info was there.

    I've been away from this site for awhile and what I learned was to stop looking for books and such. You read books about the great players and how they learned no one just gave them example, they were taught concept and left to figure things out on their own. I've been in the mode while I've been gone and learned the process of finding the answer is the real teacher. The piano player explained it a bit different than the Allen's Barry Harris, but after putting in the seat time and seeing what's going on the answer is the same. I fact I think I learned more getting it from a piano player because I had to workout all the guitar side on my own. As Budda said.... The journey is the reward.
    This is what I've been saying all along. Folks think that wisdom is secreted in just the right tomes or just the right book. But the work is the same. In fact it puts it off if you think it exists somewhere else. You gotta put in the work. It's right there. Nothing can take the place of the work and in the work the answers will pop out.

    Now yes, there are methods and specific approaches. But theses approaches have been done by people who made their own way. They weren't lazy. They studied. But they also grokked it. They applied it.

    I haven't bought a method book in years. Well I did recently buy two books on delta blues. But that might be different. Maybe. I mean if you want or need an introduction to get you started. Yeah. That's what I do. Many years ago I bought a Howard Roberts book on chord melody. I glanced through it and it got me started. Never opened it again. Yet you know, had I really studied it I'd undoubtedly have learned a lot more. But it felt like I got the concept. Then I was gone.

    But you need what you need. I just have always seen students are so often afraid of jumping. They need method books that gather dust. Just do it. Figure it out. Like Nike. Just Do It.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    I agree with the advice here about studying , grokking, working , going to camps and workshops and lessons and jams and one day a light came on in my mind and all that information started to come together and made sense.

    So finally when I read the post a few above this with what chord equals what combo of two other chords - I can actually follow what that means. I still have to get out my scale reference sheet to "spell out the notes " but I know what I am looking for now, and why.

    You will, maybe have, reached a point of knowing you want to know more. I think this is the big clue to go get the basics in hand.

    Chord diagrams and tab only go so far. Nothing wrong with never going pat them but if you've got. Yearning for learning -

    Fretboard logic book 3 is my favorite , in combi nation with assorted Jamey aebersold's publications.

    Good luck !

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Wasn't Van Eps a 7 string guitarist?
    Ken
    Before he took up seven string, he was considered the top six string player of his time. The Harmonic Mechanisms and GVE Guitar Method are written for six strings.

    The last recorded example in Kingstone's Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar is Alan playing Like Someone in Love and has a measure by measure and, in some instances, a beat by beat analysis.

    I'd also recommend, in addition to the Nelson Riddle suggestion upstream, that you start listening to piano players.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    I just don'y see it yet...I know you can use the diminished in between chords but still need some help.
    Thx
    Ken

    You're close keep looking better yet write it out, take the scale BH talks about the Maj6 Diminished also called the Bebop Major scale now use traditional harmony approach of using every other note to harmonize the scale. Adding that one extra note changes everything. Then study the chords it creates and keep thinking "the cycle", "the cycle". "the cycle", you'll see it's not just shoving diminished chords in.


    The old masters talked about "The Cycle" all the time discovering why is key.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Can some make a video of how they would use the Barry Harris Concept on a well known standard, I just don'y see it yet...I know you can use the diminished in between chords but still need some help.
    Thx
    Ken

    Before running the concepts through a whole standard, try just getting a couple nice ii v I moves in your ears/under your fingers. Even just using a couple of the subs to get it into your ear will be very helpful.

    Btw, I make no claims to be an expert on his system. However I'm working on it. What was stated by other, holds true for this as well. I had to study it, make sense of it to myself, come up with some voicings, move them through ii v's, etc. The reason I mention it is that once you can hear it, it makes a lot of sense, and delivers exactly what you're looking for.

    Its a great system, but ultimately just another tool in the toolbox, albeit a very powerful one. I would also look around this site for a lesson posted on quartal harmony. Another useful tool that translates to the guitar excellently.

  21. #20
    Thanks guys, I'll check the videos tonight when I get home from work.
    Ken

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Harmonic Mechanisms by Van Eps is the complete guitar answer. For the complete musical answer, listen to Nelson Riddle, especially the Songbook series with Ella, or even the Linda Ronstadt CDs.
    Not forgetting his stellar albums with Frank Sinatra on Capitol

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    the entire Alan Kingstone book is about applying the material to chord progressions found in standards

    i don't know what else you want short of someone spoon feeding it to you

  24. #23
    Show me one example in that book that shows you how to apply it to a standard!!!
    That's why that book doesn't sell

  25. #24
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gtrplrfla
    Not forgetting his stellar albums with Frank Sinatra on Capitol
    Books can help a lot, but you can't go wrong listening to Capitol.

    "The creative mind plays with the objects it loves." (C G Jung)

  26. #25
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Show me one example in that book that shows you how to apply it to a standard!!!
    That's why that book doesn't sell
    The book does require some prior knowledge.

    There aren't many progressions in standards, yet The Greats show what beauty can be created from so few resources.

    I find this book helps with that creative process - arranging, improvising, chords (and single lines). It presents useful information clearly and concisely.
    Last edited by destinytot; 11-11-2015 at 12:26 PM. Reason: addition