The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    I am not obstructing the discourse on books written to explain Barry Harris' methodology. I offer no criticism of Barry Harris. As Matt likes to say, he is a 'real player'. I admit that I have not read the tome in question regarding this methodology. What I did respond to is the OP's desire to learn how to create chord movement in standards. By putting up a video by a master musician who provides more info in one of his videos than most teachers in a month.

    I would hope that Mark as moderator would take note of the difference between discussion of topics and personal attacks.

    As an aside, I am creating a transcription of Se, a song composed by Ennio and Andrea Morricone for the film Cinema Paradiso. And I will offer to e-mail this to anyone who can read notation and would like to play this beautiful piece. Why? Because it demonstrates some of the concepts discussed here. Voice leading. The use of m7b5ths and diminished chords as transitions for chord movement.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    I admit that I have not read the tome in question regarding this methodology.
    ok
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    What I did respond to is the OP's desire to learn how to create chord movement in standards.
    ... but that kind of makes it sound like you WEREN'T openly mocking ANYONE who would seek such information from any book (basically everyone else actually participating) when that information could much more easily be gotten from playing through hundreds of tunes over decades.

    Anyway, it's cool of you to actually offer input into the thread at this point. It shows much more much good will than sniping from the sidelines does. I congratulate you, even if you have to back pedal and do a little revisionist whatty whatty to get there. It's very big of you, brother. Good job.

  4. #103

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    Matt, I don't seek conflict. My opinions can be strongly expressed but are not intended to mock anyone. I think we all understand music depending on where we are in our journey. I don't spend much time these days trying to learn the basics so much as trying to refine the finished product and even to create my own. I tend to take for granted certain skills developed over a long time (over fifty years) such as reading notation fluently, playing by ear. I just wish I had these skills when I was twenty, and I was pretty damn good at that age. It's getting late in the game, so I'm impatient. I'm hearing footsteps...life is over so quickly. Like sand through the hour glass - a non-sequitur reference to an old daytime soap.

    Life is funny. Doug McKenzie, the Australian pianist / educator who truly has gifted his expertise via YouTube to the world, remarked that one motivation was to pass on his knowledge to another generation of people like us crazy enough to devote years of their life to pursing the passion of playing jazz. I understand that - I wanted to teach my son everything I know, like a legacy. He is eighteen and gifted with talent and remarkable intelligence - he is the highest ranked male student in his high school over the past three years and now into his senior year. But sadly he is not the least bit interested in playing music. For someone who can not live without music that is hard to comprehend. But each of us has his journey to make.

  5. #104

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    I went out to buy some beer today. I like Gosser, an Austrian lager. I took my motorcycle, a good model that took me to the Appalachian’s and out to the Bay of Fundy this past summer. There aren’t many days left in the motorcycle season and it was nice to get out again today. I diverted my route a bit south of Danforth Avenue in Toronto where I live just to enjoy the day and as I headed west I noticed a laneway that I’d not explored before and as is my wont I headed down it not knowing if I’d get through or have to head back. I’ve been a map-reader most of my life but have really enjoyed my new GPS unit and it showed a route to the right at the seeming dead end. I turned sharp right at minimum speed and as I tentatively accelerated through the corner my rear wheel slipped on some wet leaves, the bike sliding as if on ice. Luckily I am still responsive enough that I grabbed the clutch and got my right leg down before I dropped my 450 pound bike, 14 beer and my old body to the ground. My heart raced. I got home and the beer is chilled. I can’t wait until next bike season.

    Alan

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Alain - that is interesting, but some of us do that "naturally" because we know how to play around the chord forms and have ears to add sharps and flats to diminished chords or any chord form. When do you play an A7aug? When it sounds right, not according to some 'formula'. It even annoys me to talk about "learning chord inversions". You don't cycle through your mental library of inversions when you are playing a tune - you play what you hear or what is written. You might work on a concept in the woodshed, but not on stage or in a recording situation.

    I know this is hard for some to grok, but I don't need "permission" or a research paper to play tunes like Two For the Road or myriad other standards. It just is not necessary once you get to a certain level. Sure, talking about theory is interesting - to a point. When I see people agonizing over "note pools" or modal music or hear advice like "play Dorian over this dominant chord", my eyes glaze over. Or to put it another way - reading about how to use diminished chords, minor flat fifths or if you prefer min sixths can be enlightening to those who don't know how to use their ears. If you know this stuff to the point that you don't even think about it anymore, it becomes mental masturbation.

    Theory won't get you laid or get applause.

    it is obviously true that the music is really easy to play for people who have mastered it - my records have no other sorts of musicians playing on them!!!

    but to labour this sort of point on this sort of forum really strikes me as annoying in the extreme. do a video of yourself doing all these wonderful things so us morons can enjoy just how wonderful you are. this is the most objectionable post i've read on a forum full of objectionable posts.

    but i'm sure you're one hell of a player

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    it is obviously true that the music is really easy to play for people who have mastered it - my records have no other sorts of musicians playing on them!!!

    but to labour this sort of point on this sort of forum really strikes me as annoying in the extreme. do a video of yourself doing all these wonderful things so us morons can enjoy just how wonderful you are. this is the most objectionable post i've read on a forum full of objectionable posts.

    but i'm sure you're one hell of a player

    I agree, though I'm not asking for a video of targuit's playing.

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    it is obviously true that the music is really easy to play for people who have mastered it - my records have no other sorts of musicians playing on them!!!

    but to labour this sort of point on this sort of forum really strikes me as annoying in the extreme. do a video of yourself doing all these wonderful things so us morons can enjoy just how wonderful you are. this is the most objectionable post i've read on a forum full of objectionable posts.

    but i'm sure you're one hell of a player
    Just watch here:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRq...3PM0owaH0hjyGg

  9. #108

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    all the references to the barry harris stuff risk implying that barry harris came up with all this harmonic machinery

    of course he didn't

    at most he discovered it - in the music - where it lives

    you don' t need barry harris to hear it in the music or to discover it there - or even to tease out all the work it does in the music

    so you don't need any formal musical study to get to this stuff. you can just find it at work in the music with your ears etc. etc.

    ---

    and my annoyance with the tone of Ts post has NOTHING WHATEVER TO DO with his musical ability. i have no idea whether he's a fraud or a superstar - and that does not matter to me at all. (except - maybe - that the better he is the more sensitive he ought to be to 'ordinary' or student players.)

    (the reason this is so is that the better you are, the more esteem you are held in (roughly), and that means that the insensitivity of really able players will do more damage.)

    there's a vibe of mutual support on here that is a good thing - and it endures despite the fact that there are some very very able players here and some beginners. it will not continue to endure in the face of these sorts of post.

  10. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    So, as far as I'm concerned, that particular member's comments - er - 'will not stand'.

  11. #110
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    As 'Dr Niles Crane' frequently says to his brother in TV's Frasier, "You know me so well."

    Speaking of insult, I had a gig with an organ trio at a bistro musical last night. That title probably doesn't require much explanation, except perhaps the bistro part - which implies that they serve food (from the Russian for 'quick').

    Well, the gig was fine, but we won't be returning. The owner paid us - then immediately told us to go and pay at the counter for our meals and drinks. We'd consumed very little, but the bill was huge.

    But we paid it (not that we had much choice), as we decided that there was probably more to the situation than meets the eye. I'm pleased to report that were no 'bowling balls at dawn':

  12. #111

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    Oh, dear! I apologize for offending anyone inadvertently. I certainly did not call anyone a "moron" or deride them for lack of ability. I have been playing since I was twelve and that was more than fifty years ago, so I do have experience. I worked for many years as a physician, just 'retiring' at the end of September, but I am deeply engaged in copying medical records for patient transfers, so I have not been able to focus on much else. Closing a practice is one of the most exhausting and annoying things I have ever done.

    I spend at least a couple of hours a day playing music, creating transcriptions, and the like. This morning I just did a transcription of The Days of Wine and Roses, which I execute on Sibelius G7 (old legacy $60 software) that I love as a tool. I am no superstar, but I certainly can play. I read music fluently. Play classical as well as jazz guitar and piano plus I sing as well. These are just the facts, not braggadocio. When I get out from under the task of copying medical records which could be a few more months, I need to find work doing something else. I'd love to play music, but...well, you know it isn't easy to make a buck these days on gigs. I'm working to hone my repertoire.

    All I was trying to say was that while studying texts on music theory is both interesting and essential, ultimately one must develop the ears. Because theory is like the skeleton of the body, but without the ears one cannot execute properly. At least that is my opinion. I was trying to suggest alternative approaches to learning "chord movement" - exactly what the OP intended is not clear, though I interpret that as the use of min sixths and diminished chords.

    Of course, the OP requested the names of books for reference. Someone suggested books on Barry Harris' approach and the name of Alan Kingstone, whom I don't know. Of course, he did contribute a post last night. Hope he is well - I used to ride motorcycles in my misspent youth and know what it is to lay the bike down. I hope he will return to contribute to the discussion and to explain the essence of his book on the BH system.

    Some people devote themselves to discussion of CST, modes, and other topics they find interesting. I understand that, but I prefer to play the standards as the most effective approach to learning jazz harmony and technique. For anyone with a desire to improve, I think the most effective way is to use notation software to create transcriptions from the Real Book or other sources which gives you midi files to use to rehearse and helps you to become a more complete and accomplished musician. Apart from the work of practicing to acquire the best technique of which you are capable, using notation software will supercharge your progress more than any other element assuming you are beyond the beginner stage as a guitarist. I have no vested interest in pushing this agenda. It is my honest opinion.

    I do record with an all-in-one stand alone digital recorder - a now legacy Korg D1200 - on which I produced the two things up on my YouTube channel including one of my original songs - Madoff's Madness. A song that originated as a joke. I do write other original material not on my YT site. If you listen to those, please use decent headphones, as YT degrades the audio and the recordings are made as headphone mixes. I personally hate the sound of stuff through tinny computer speakers. Those songs represent "live" takes, as I cannot comp tracks or do any serious editing with the Korg and I don't have a computer DAW and I would not use Autotune even if I had it as an option. Hopefully soon in the future.

    Lastly, if anyone would like a transcription of a favorite standard, I would be happy to e-mail them one from my library of personal Sibelius transcriptions which I create. My Romance, My Funny Valentine, The Shadow of Your Smile.... . I am not the most tech savvy person. The other day I tried to upload a music file of one of my recordings via Dropbox after opening an account and found that I inadvertently was uploading my son's whole I-tunes library. Nearly had a heart attack, thinking it would be transferring the whole thing to get lost in cyberspace. I canceled the account. So to put a video, I have to create an audio or other video on YT. Takes a little time.

    Anyway, appearances to the contrary, I don't know why the focus should be on me as an individual. I was not trying to stifle discussion of theory but rather to suggest the most concrete and effective way to learn what the OP is seeking. Joe Pass used to say, "Learn songs!" I think he is right on the money.

    Sorry for the long post about moi, but as the song title goes, You Don't Know Me - now you do know a little more.

  13. #112

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    Really, Mike? (Destinytot)

    Did I address you in any way? Insult you? I think you miss the point. And if you don't like my version of The Shadow of Your Smile - your prerogative, of course - would you be so munificent as to post your own version, so we may compare. If I changed the melody a hair, it was inadvertent. But I don't think anything is carved in stone, other than gravestones.
    Last edited by targuit; 11-15-2015 at 12:03 PM.

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I used to feel that way about the book, but then picked up same thing from hearing a piano player talk about it and wrote it out myself and the whole concept fell into place and just a matter of woodsheding it. I recently pull out Alan's book and now I can see the info was there.

    I've been away from this site for awhile and what I learned was to stop looking for books and such. You read books about the great players and how they learned no one just gave them example, they were taught concept and left to figure things out on their own. I've been in the mode while I've been gone and learned the process of finding the answer is the real teacher. The piano player explained it a bit different than the Allen's Barry Harris, but after putting in the seat time and seeing what's going on the answer is the same. I fact I think I learned more getting it from a piano player because I had to workout all the guitar side on my own. As Budda said.... The journey is the reward.
    I see that I am not the only one here who thinks that experience is the best teacher.

    And even Mark and Destinytot liked this comment. I do, too. But I'm not allowed to say the same thing.

  15. #114

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    So comping from my point of view is always about supporting whats going on.

    If that's comping behind a melody... then that's what you should be doing, supporting the melody. There lots of approaches to doing that... but unless there's an arrangement or prearrangement or verbal cue... the comping should never move above the melody.

    When your comping behind a soloist... then you have options. Sometimes your just a backing tract... usually do to the soloist abilities. They need a rock solid backing to perform their memorized improve etc... and unless you have the skills to always have that prearranged backing track always implied while you interact etc...keep it solid.

    Generally when performing in a jazz style... just as the soloist is improvising, so is the accompanist or rhythm section. Now you can really get into comping... the next level of...
    as this thread was looking for, Creating Chordal Movement.

    So what do you have to start with... the melody and the basic changes, the chords. So there is a general tonal center, the basic tonal center of the tune, at least with most standards. Both the melody and the changes generally have the same tonal center.

    That's the basic tonal reference, the tune may move around, modulate, modal interchange etc... but those are usually harmonic or tonal embellishment... composers personal tastes etc.

    So when you comp... you need to be aware of root motion... what the chords are, the tonal reference. The root doesn't need to be played and more chords and voicings can and are usually added to help create whatever type of comping feel your performing... but there is organization. And it's better to be aware of what your playing than just trial and erroring your way through.

    Most good accompanist... compers... voice from a melodic line. That line can be the actual melody and embellishments, a counter melody or a type of groove melody. The melody line gives shape and feel to the changes. You can always just use rhythm to make anything work... but when the harmony and melody work together, you create Harmonic Rhythm. The melody is really just harmonic notes with embellishment... chord tones, all notes imply a chord.

    Anyway... Most generally voice that melodic line on top, at least most of the time.

    Don't get hung up on voice leading... voice leading is just the first step to becoming aware of harmonic motion... chord movement. The voicings and voice leading are just choices of how to imply that chord movement. That being said... if you don't know the basics of voice leading. You may not be ready to actually learn how to comp. It's not complicated and there is more than enough BS out there to figure it out in a week or two. Take the time to notate out the very physical possibilities.

    So moving on to actual techniques of creating Chord Movement.

    You have some basic choices... if you add more chord attacks to the rhythmic pattern of what tune your comping to... The additional chords are going to be,

    Diatonic....
    inversions or chords that imply the same tonal function.The basics are using diatonic to mean physically from the implied scale and chords built from same functional scale degrees. Cmaj7...being a Imaj7 chord with tonic function... the root, 3rd and 6th degrees, E-7 and A-7. Do the same with Dominant and sub dominant.

    The next level of usage is for diatonic to be applied in modal approach, different guidelines.

    The next level would be different organization to create diatonic like function to chord movement... I use blue notes and Melodic minor to create a diatonic functional feel to chords and chord patterns.

    Passing and approach chords....
    now your moving past the macro tonal approach, your opening the door for micro or tonal targets. Each chord can become a tonal center, opens the door to modal interchange, subs, chord patterns etc...

    Now the technical aspects.... you need to be able to perform any and all of these approaches to comping on your instrument.

    You need to be able to play... any note... on top of any chord... any where on your fret board.

    You can take any melodic line and voice it in style and feel that the tune implies. Using any of the typical melodic embellishment techniques.

    I use octave transpositions a lot. Helps create feel of movement with out really adding that many new chords.

    Here's a simple diatonic example from 1st two bars of November's Standard..."In Your Own Sweet Way" add whatever rhythmic feel you want.

    5 X 5 5 3 X
    5 X 5 5 4 X
    X 5 4 5 6 X
    X 5 4 5 4 X... or use Dom.approach, 4 X 4 5 4 X or chrom.app.4 X 4 4 4 X
    3 X 3 3 3 X
    3 X 2 3 3 X

    or with octave displacement...

    5 X 5 5 3 X
    5 X 5 5 4 X
    X X 10 9 8 10
    X X 10 11 11 13
    X X 10 11 11 11 make 3rd,4th and 5th chords a triplet...
    X 10 8 10 10 10
    8 X 8 9 10 10

    The basic trick...what makes you actually sound good. Is to develop a collection of chord voicings. There are only so many Basically the seven Diatonic chords from...
    -Maj/Min,
    -Melodic minor
    -Harmonic Minor...

    I just use 6th, 5th and 4th string root versions of most chords... anyway pick the voicings that you like and that help imply different styles.
    Be able to play different lead notes on top of those chords.

    Then learn some approaches to connect chords... I use Chord Patterns, diatonic, functional... passing and approach and then voice melodies on top.

    Just using those basic 7 chords from the three scales and being able to voice different lead notes, 3rds,5ths,7ths,9ths 11ths, 13ths and altered notes from different harmonic organization has almost unlimited possibilities. ( yea Dim and whole tone etc...) sorry they sound weak and not very soulfill personally... they generally sound like you don't know what to play. sorry.PO. Anyway I'm around today...
    Last edited by Reg; 11-15-2015 at 12:36 PM.

  16. #115
    destinytot Guest
    Select... Print... Save to PDF... Wonderful - thank you, Reg!

    This really resonates:
    Most good accompanist... compers... voice from a melodic line. That line can be the actual melody and embellishments, a counter melody or a type of groove melody. The melody line gives shape and feel to the changes. You can always just use rhythm to make anything work... but when the harmony and melody work together, you create Harmonic Rhythm. The melody is really just harmonic notes with embellishment... chord tones, all notes imply a chord.

    Anyway... Most generally voice that melodic line on top, at least most of the time.
    I'd like to ask a question, please: if you could only use two voices at a time, which harmonic notes would you most likely use (on a standard)? Thanks in advance.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Select... Print... Save to PDF... Wonderful - thank you, Reg!

    This really resonates:


    I'd like to ask a question, please: if you could only use two voices at a time, which harmonic notes would you most likely use (on a standard)? Thanks in advance.
    Hey man nice to hear from you, thanks for question...
    It would depend on what I'm playing etc... but generally I would use a counter melody as the 1st or top voice and then make 2nd line a counter melody to my 1st line, but more of a implying harmony function type of roll. Basically play 3rds and 6th with embellishments and use the bottom line for harmonic cliche functions, ex. on G-7 to C7, 7th to 3rd thing. but somewhat embellished etc... Bb, Ab G, / F# .

    So the lead line would be my melody... which could reflect any harmonic approach, the chord tone reference is secondary, the main relationship would be to the harmonic approach... blue notes, modal or just tonal... chord tones relationship would again reflect the harmonic approach. and then I would develop harmonic relationships with the 2nd voice and interval implications... which would reflect the style and feel of whatever I'm playing.

    The basic 7th chord tones are basically implied after the 1st time through and style and feel etc... I generally don't want to play what's already implied unless I feel it's needed because of soloist or complexity of music. Most standards are extremely basic etc...

    And your probably already aware of how I use playing on and off the tunes harmonic rhythm or implied harmonic accent pattern... the harmonic groove. I always use tension on the week side of implied harmonic accent pattern to help create harmonic motion... chordal movement. Also make changes groove, or lock etc...

    Obviously I don't really need to think that much when I'm performing.... I've been doing it for years and I put in the time and understand Music etc. But most of my performing is improved, I don't really play the same thing over and over... good or bad, Even when I'm playing same changes and same voicing I've played a million times... there are always different grooves, and lead lines to develop.

  18. #117

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    Barry harris.

  19. #118
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey man nice to hear from you, thanks for question...
    It would depend on what I'm playing etc... but generally I would use a counter melody as the 1st or top voice and then make 2nd line a counter melody to my 1st line, but more of a implying harmony function type of roll. Basically play 3rds and 6th with embellishments and use the bottom line for harmonic cliche functions, ex. on G-7 to C7, 7th to 3rd thing. but somewhat embellished etc... Bb, Ab G, / F# .

    So the lead line would be my melody... which could reflect any harmonic approach, the chord tone reference is secondary, the main relationship would be to the harmonic approach... blue notes, modal or just tonal... chord tones relationship would again reflect the harmonic approach. and then I would develop harmonic relationships with the 2nd voice and interval implications... which would reflect the style and feel of whatever I'm playing.

    The basic 7th chord tones are basically implied after the 1st time through and style and feel etc... I generally don't want to play what's already implied unless I feel it's needed because of soloist or complexity of music. Most standards are extremely basic etc...

    And your probably already aware of how I use playing on and off the tunes harmonic rhythm or implied harmonic accent pattern... the harmonic groove. I always use tension on the week side of implied harmonic accent pattern to help create harmonic motion... chordal movement. Also make changes groove, or lock etc...

    Obviously I don't really need to think that much when I'm performing.... I've been doing it for years and I put in the time and understand Music etc. But most of my performing is improved, I don't really play the same thing over and over... good or bad, Even when I'm playing same changes and same voicing I've played a million times... there are always different grooves, and lead lines to develop.
    That's extremely helpful - thanks, man! (It's for flute and cello behind vocal and nylon guitar in lowered tuning.)

  20. #119

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    Wow. Hi, Reg!

    Nice response. Be careful to genuflect, or you might stumble. I'm being ostracized for suggesting, as did Docbop, that the best way to learn "chord movement" is to learn actual jazz songs employing min sixths and diminished chords, which is to say virtually 90% of standards.

    Reg, could you post a nice ballad like Body and Soul to demonstrate your solo voice leading?

    What is happening these days? Hope all is well.
    Last edited by targuit; 11-15-2015 at 03:51 PM.

  21. #120

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    what a thread!!!..

    what I was taught..the elements of patients, determination, persistence and experimentation are key ingredients in music in general and guitar in particular..learning jazz is all those aspects-on steroids!

    chord melody is its own style and demands .. if your just doing "fills" behind someone in a combo..you may have more time to take some risks and see if a "chord run" works

    but to be able to do any of this takes knowing which tool to use..that is knowing all the basic harmonic structures-chords-chord scales-inversions and all combinations of them - in all keys in all positions..

    yep its a lot of work..to say you may not need to do all this - ok - you may learn how to do several chord melodies in several keys..and that's it..if that is all you want and or need to know and you satisfied with just that..then all is good

    if your a working musician on your own..you should have all the tools you need-just in case.."..Oh we are doing the tune in Ab..Yikes!"

    the original question was chord movement..for me this is different than moving voices as they are notes within the chord itself..and is a separate and a bit more intense study as it relates directly to the dictates of the melodic line..

    chord movement may just mean the given chord is G7 - (using a blues as an example-and a very good way to begin to experiment with this kind of thing due to the harmonic freedom it allows)and you may vamp G13 Bb13 G7..(this kind of thing depends on the tune of course)..your not going to embellish the chord with soprano or inner voice moves..just basic comping..as I understand the question anyway..

    the thing with this is knowing when you can use it in a tune..now you can read all the books and vids you want..only experience will teach you this stuff..it has to come from within yourself..a strong level of confidence is needed and the ability to perform without doubt..this takes time to develop

    Ok your in a combo and you know the tune and the basic chords..now you have four bars of CMa7..and the melody is pure diatonic CMA for those bars..you could play some safe chords..CM7 Dmi7 Emi7 Ami7 Dm7 G7 and back to CM7
    depending how rhythmically you put those chords together and if they are on the higher strings it could be a nice chord run..

    If I understand the original question that is the desired result...in learning not only HOW but WHEN to move chords..


    watching UTubes of the top players and books will work for awhile..best advice I can give..find a GOOD teacher .. and/or find a guitar buddy who is better than you and will work with you on this stuff until it becomes like breathing

    I have been very fortunate to have very good guitarists as longtime friends and we would trade ideas and hold chords for each other for hours while we developed our lines and chord work..and I had a guitar/music master for a teacher..

    I realize many don't have that and its a long journey with all I had..for others not so lucky..longer still..

  22. #121

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    On the topic of chord movement and "In Your Own Sweet Way", check out this superb take on the tune:


  23. #122
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by PMB
    On the topic of chord movement and "In Your Own Sweet Way", check out this superb take on the tune:
    Thank you for posting this outstanding clip.

  24. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Nice response. Be careful to genuflect, or you might stumble. I'm being ostracized for suggesting, as did Docbop, that the best way to learn "chord movement" is to learn actual jazz songs employing min sixths and diminished chords, which is to say virtually 90% of standards.
    This is wrong in at least 3 ways:
    1) This is not why you are being "ostracized." You are being "ostracized" because you come off as a condescending jerk, which you have been told several times over the past few years and you still don't get it. I am not saying that you are a condescending jerk but only that you have come across that way several times now to several members who have a reputation for being easy to get along with. Physician, heal thyself!
    2) This is not what you actually said.
    3) "Virtually 90 % of standards" do NOT have minor-sixth and diminished chords.

  25. #124

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    Mark -

    I respectfully disagree with your contention that I am incorrect regarding the use of minor sixths and diminished chords in jazz. They are in almost every jazz standard that is not a strict "blues". I can not vouch for the "90%" figure, but I could list myriad common standards in which these harmonic devices are used. All the things you are, Autumn Leaves, Body and Soul, But Beautiful, Corcovado, Estate, Georgia on my mind, How Insensative, MyRomance, My Foolish Heart.... just scratching the surface.

    "Condescending jerk?" When have I seen you publicly reprimand other posters who have exceeded the forum decorum in my regard much more egregiously than I? (Rich B) The answer is virtually NEVER. You yourself accused me of being a 'fraud' and other unsavory terms more than once. I may not be George Benson, but I can play and you know it. And I certainly do not recall any apologies emitted by you in my regard.

    My 'faux pas' was the temerity to suggest that simply learning concrete standards was the best way to assimilate the harmonic devices in jazz, and I stand by that opinion. I did not denigrate or attack any individual on this thread in a personal way, unlike several of the responses to me. I simply questioned the "orthodoxy".

    As I pointed out, my opinion as to the best way to assimilate the use of these harmonic devices is by learning to play actual jazz standards is shared by many others on the forum and Joe Pass among other famous musicians. Was Joe a "condescending jerk"? Perhaps you could quote and link verbatim passages from my posts on this thread that fit that definition or in which I castigated other posters personally. I could easily post examples of personal vilification in my regard. What a double standard!

    Frankly, if anyone wishes to devote their time to delving into books on harmony, I could care less. That is their prerogative. I thought expressing a considered personal opinion was mine. Apparently not....But for those whom I "offended" by trying to advise them to help them achieve their objectives, I do apologize. Such a rarity here on the Forums.
    Last edited by targuit; 11-16-2015 at 11:43 AM.

  26. #125

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    Does this feel "out of this world" to anyone?