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Alain - that is interesting, but some of us do that "naturally" because we know how to play around the chord forms and have ears to add sharps and flats to diminished chords or any chord form. When do you play an A7aug? When it sounds right, not according to some 'formula'. It even annoys me to talk about "learning chord inversions". You don't cycle through your mental library of inversions when you are playing a tune - you play what you hear or what is written. You might work on a concept in the woodshed, but not on stage or in a recording situation.
I know this is hard for some to grok, but I don't need "permission" or a research paper to play tunes like Two For the Road or myriad other standards. It just is not necessary once you get to a certain level. Sure, talking about theory is interesting - to a point. When I see people agonizing over "note pools" or modal music or hear advice like "play Dorian over this dominant chord", my eyes glaze over. Or to put it another way - reading about how to use diminished chords, minor flat fifths or if you prefer min sixths can be enlightening to those who don't know how to use their ears. If you know this stuff to the point that you don't even think about it anymore, it becomes mental masturbation.
Theory won't get you laid or get applause.Last edited by targuit; 11-13-2015 at 08:28 PM.
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11-13-2015 08:25 PM
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Just a question for you, Matt. Two For the Road - do you play that tune? If someone called it with a singer and you had to transpose the key, can you play it? I suspect that you can. I don't really care a fig if people want to spend their time reading tomes that propose to teach you harmony. Fine. You want to waste years of your life studying Van Eps tomes? Be my guest.
My comment was that those who aspire to learn to play well should learn to reproduce what is written or what they hear. If you cannot hear the difference between a Ddim7 or a Dm7b5, reading a book is not enough. I don't know - I just don't need formulas or permission to play certain note pools - I'm beyond that. There are only twelve damn notes in the scale of an octave. And I know how to play these tunes. No, I'm not Charlie Parker and I don't give a shit to emulate a wasted drug addict. Too bad.
I also suggested that we satisfy the OP by providing our versions of certain specific tunes that illustrate the concept of using these harmonic devices. I was joking that this harmonic material is present in nearly every jazz standard I can think of. These are not 'esoteric' mysterious harmonic devices. I posted a couple of vids off YT that demonstrate the concept. And I play those tunes in much the same way. WHY!?? Because that's how the damn songs were written, long before Barry Harris wrote his book. How did those pioneer jazz players ever figure this stuff out? Beats me....
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Originally Posted by targuit
This guys a real DB...Some of us don't have 8 fucking hours a day to figure shit out...get it!!!!!
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Anyway, I would like to give my condolences to the nation of France and the Parisians who have suffered such grievous losses today. We talk about music here. In Paris people are bleeding or dying of their wounds. Important to maintain some perspective on what is truly important.
In any case, I will not obstruct or disrupt any further discussion of the subject of this thread. I have better things to do. Over and out.
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Some of us figured it out a long time ago. And we don't need to use profanity or attack others for their opinions. I just retired from the practice of medicine, pal. What do you do for a living? Or are you living in your parents' basement? Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
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Targuit, you are all bluff and bluster. Many of the greats sought out mathematical relationships to further their knowledge and horizons. People need to find their own way, and it is stupid to dismiss a very valuable way of learning. The way you talk you should be the greatest that ever picked up an instrument, but I can assure you, you are not.
"All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians" Thelonious Monk.Last edited by plasticpigeon; 11-13-2015 at 09:20 PM.
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11-13-2015, 09:07 PM #82destinytot GuestGet help. Originally Posted by targuit
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Your so full of yourself...Just fing leave!!!!!!!!!! Originally Posted by targuit
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I practice medicine whoopy fucking doo, you just showed how pathetic you are with low self esteem to make such a comment... Dr or not your a moron Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
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Guys, we have lost the thread here. We could talk about where and why (-let's call that Option A) or get back to the discussion of creating chord movement in standards (let's call that Option B). I prefer Option B. Who's with me?
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I'm not doing the playing challenge again, Jay. We've done that. What I posted at the time illustrated that I'm exactly who I say I am ,an amateur. I'm not the one claiming to be a great player, but that's beside the point.
First of all, it's also beside the point as to whether you can play anything. We're talking about how OTHER people might learn something . Originally Posted by targuit
Second, no one ever said that merely READING a book would give knowledge. But what about working through the material? You, yourself, talk about the great value of reading through large amounts of music in your day . What's the difference?
You could argue that simply playing through music is somehow more efficient than systematically playing through music which introduces specific theoretical concepts or devices, but that's semantics really . It's a pretty fine point to argue that those are any different.
There are only 12 notes you say . But they're not arbitrarily arranged in real music. There's organization to all of it . Are you against all theory books or just Barry Harris? Still don't understand what your specific beef with him is.
The pioneer jazz players learned by playing with others , watching mentors fingers and asking questions , listening to recordings. Did they study Mickey Baker or Barry Harris? Did they watch DVDs? They certainly weren't on the jazz forum talking about this stuff . Is all of that illegitimate because it didn't exist back then? Originally Posted by targuit
Besides which, Barry Harris is a jazz musician . If Wes Montgomery were in front of you , you'd be an idiot not to ask him some questions and seek help on anything you could think of to ask him. If you could get him to write down a book's worth of material or make a DVD, would that material be useless because he didn't use the same?
The truth is you don't "hear" ANYTHING as a musician that you didn't pick up from somewhere else. you didn't get that hearing ability from just looking at the notes on paper or thinking about them. How is the process of internalizing material from a book like this any different? Eventually you're not thinking about it. Right? The same thing really.
Barry Harris's books aren't any more "magical" than all the sheet music you read over the years or wherever you learned whatever theory you know. I don't see how it's any less valid.
Ironically, you sound like one of those people that bitch that you can't learn anything about jazz from reading music. It's just a different take on it.
Sorry to offend in my earlier post. I'll leave you with it.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-13-2015 at 10:27 PM.
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Targuit, you are absolutely right. Ears ARE the key and many of us do do similar "borrowing" naturally. However, this does provide a framework for looking at the neck that is imho useful for more complex harmony. I have been doing what you described for 30 years and it works great. Usually, I would "borrow" one note, maybe 2 on rare occasions and mostly on the top voices. Borrow 3 voices and mix and match from above and below and I am fairly certain that very few people do this spontaneously by ear only without some kind of frame of reference. More likely, theta are chord shapes and voicings they've practiced. When I'm comping, I come up with voicings that I have not specifically practiced. I am moving the notes by ear, but having the framework gives me a base to play within. Originally Posted by targuit
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Jay you always get all steamed up when people discuss theory or books. Are they really so bad? Doesn't medicine have some theory and books in it? Originally Posted by targuit
Anyway the OP did ask specifically for a book recommendation.
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The main issue with this thread is everyone is not talking about the same thing.
Targuit, the reason you're being misunderstood is you're talking about harmonic movement within the whole progression. Most of us are talking about movement on a single chord. In other words how to fill up two bars worth of a Cmaj7, by giving it some movement. I remember you getting beaten on in the thread about melodic minor modes because you didn't understand those either. Long story short, it would benefit all of us to remember nobody knows everything. The day you stop investigating these new possibilities is the day you stop growing as a player.
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Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Ok, this is a good start, but..... Think of it as the finish. If you're playing a ii v i, you could use (part of that) for the I chord.
Now, you need to figure out the minor (ii) and dominant (v) movements.
I would suggest just getting the minor movement going to start. So...
Start on d minor (bh calls it f6), you have four beats. On the first three, play dm7, then up to c#dim, then the next dmin7 for two beats. That takes care of the ii chord.
now, I would just play a single v chord sub to get it in your ear. So the chart says play a g7, we want to sub that with Abmin6 (I prefer because of my training to think min7b5 off the b7 of a dominant chord, fmin7b5). That should get the sound of the dominant in your ear.
last you resolve it to the I chord. If you have two bars of Cmaj7, lets fill up the first 5 (of 8) beats. Take the first five chords of your major "movement".... C, Ddim, C, Ddim, C.
to sum up....
dm7 ....c#dim ....dm7...dm7........fmin7b5 ///..... C..Ddim...C...Ddim....C
hope that helps. P.s. You may want to change that first correct c6 voicing to the easier cmaj7 cgbe. It's less "correct" but easier to grab clean, especially in certain places on the neck. Also it's just a nice sound.
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Perhaps I did not understand. I thought the issue was 'creating chord movement' and what books might help. Someone suggested Barry Harris. I like his music and his persona,and though I have never read his book, I have listened to his "tutorials" on YT. Quite stimulating. While I cannot knowledgably discuss his thesis on minor sixth harmony since I have not read his book, I imagine it has to do with using minor seventh flat fifths and diminished chords (often as Graham noted on the 'weak' beats) to connect the basic harmony as transitional chords. To create 'chord movement' as per the OP.
The thing is that I play and utilize this type of harmonic device without thinking about it as I play jazz standards. Over the past couple of days I've been "thinking about" these devices which I normally just play naturally because I hear it as voice leading. Have I always been knowledgeable and proficient at using these devices? Of course not. I learned this as part of my 'education' in jazz standard playing. It is in the Real Book on nearly every standard published. I have a hard time finding a jazz standard that does not employ these harmonic devices. Learning the standards over the years it has simply become very 'normal' to play in this fashion. If I 'think about' these devices at all, it is terms of voice leading. But most of the time I just hear it and play it.
It is nearly dawn. I have played through my daily practice. Tonight I played through several Jobim songs. Virtually all of them used these devices. Then I played along with a solo pianist, Harold Mabern. Ditto. And the last thing I worked on was my transcription of You Don't Know What Love Is, which I am going to record tomorrow. Ditto. You really cannot play jazz standards without employing these harmonic devices. They are that fundamental to modern music and this genre.
How do you explain to someone unfamiliar with these devices how they work? I suggest by example. Listen to the song. Hear this phrase - this is where you transition from this chord to the next via this diminished minor seventh chord. Simple. Hear it a few hundred times, you will likely understand it. If you feel the need to spend money to assimilate it, be my guest. Maybe a teacher would help. But develop your ears. Jazz is not played with cowboy chords alone.
To respond to Vintagelove - you should link me to where I "don't understand melodic minor", as I understood melodic minor when I was twelve years old some time ago unfortunately. I don't even think about it because I don't need to - I hear it. I play it. Like Joe Pass, I could not give a crap about modes beyond their theoretical and historical significance. I don't need to. I think the only type of harmony or theory that I really need to work on would be quartal harmony. I also play piano and McCoy Tyner is among my favorites. But, I don't specialize in playing quartal harmony routinely on guitar, though I certainly understand it. I hear it.
As far as trying to use Barry Harris' concepts to play two bars over a single chord, I am stumped. Good thing I don't need the theory to figure out what to play. I do like to discuss theory, but more in relation to concrete songs. Frankly, it's like the difference between daydreaming about sex and actually engaging in sex with a real (hot) woman. I prefer the later.
Graham - "Jay you always get all steamed up when people discuss theory or books. Are they really so bad? Doesn't medicine have some theory and books in it?"
Oh, yes! Lots of books that take years to read. But tell me one thing. If you are seriously ill and go to a hospital to seek treatment, would you rather see the first year resident who just started his internship or the ED attending with a touch of gray hair? Easy question, isn't it?
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Vintage, I am actually talking about harmonic movement in general. Ie not just creating movement in a static chord. I see the latter as just a sub category of the former. Originally Posted by vintagelove
Targuit, for what it's worth, anyone who knows me would tell you that I am the least theory-oriented musician they know. I know only enough theory as I need to make the music I want to. I am sure you could stump me on the easiest theory questions. I play 99,5% by ear. Nevertheless, everyone needs a framework. Barry Harris' framework is as good as any and I've found it to be useful. I don't want to convince anyone that this is the only way to go because it's not. I learn music almost exclusively by learning tunes. I have never had a book that I learned anything useful from. The Alan Kingstone book is the only useful book on guitar I've ever bought. I only bought it out of curiosity and it provides everything the OP is trying to do. I think investing time in the ideas is worthwhile.
Guitarplayer007 I currently don't have a good way to record a video but feel free to pm with any questions and I'll try to help or give you examples.
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This thread is ruined. What a shame.
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Take heart. The thread shall find itself back on track and rolling right along over the weekend. How do I know this? I don't. But there are more people who want to talk about the main topic than don't, so I think we should find our way back to it. Originally Posted by plasticpigeon
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Thanks AlainJazz Originally Posted by AlainJazz
Ken
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Thanks very much Ken. Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
And thanks for starting this thread - it's got me seriously checking out this Barry Harris thing, which I didn't know much about before.
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Your welcome Grahambop
Yeah I'm going to devote time to the Barry Harris book, but still my main focus for next 12 months is Richie Zellons Improv course.
Ken
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Just a brief addition for those who love jazz and wish to learn from a master - Body and Soul with streaming piano notation and excellent commentary and annotations by Doug McKenzie, a 'retired' jazz professor in Australia.
One of these days I will have to read the material suggested in this thread. I don't discount the value of book learning. But the nitty gritty of dots on the page and your ears will teach you faster than any other approach. This is for those who are serious about music and jazz. Doug is a virtual wealth of information, music files, sheet music, and brilliant playing who so very generously offers his expertise on YouTube. I hope you will enjoy the real deal - a "real player", as Matt would suggest.
I'm posting this so those who read notation can learn about 'chord movement' and the use of minor 6ths, voice leading, and improvisation. Doug records these priceless recordings and videos as improvisations off simple lead sheets. Fabulous musicianship. For those who are serious, this provides the requisite sheet music to have an intelligent discussion even measure by measure.
Last edited by targuit; 11-14-2015 at 12:38 PM.
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I don't suppose there's any way to convey how insulting and condescending your posts are on this kind of thing. Originally Posted by targuit
But since we're arbitrarily spewing thoughts about things we haven't even bothered to look at....
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I hereby pronounce the INTRODUCTION to Kingstone's Barry Harris book to be 100 TIMES MORE VALUABLE to jazz musicians than ALL of the collected YouTube videos of your guy put together.
I have done this without having watched ANY part of your video. I really don't have to. My way is just quantifiable better. And I know this by sheet force of my magical musical powers of discernment. (Removes wizard hat.)
That is all. Discussion over.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-14-2015 at 02:59 PM.
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i don't even think of myself as a "Barry Harris guy" but i feel like i have to clear up some misconceptions in this thread
you can absolutely do chord melodies with this approach, and you can come up with some very cool things Originally Posted by grahambop
later this weekend, i'll try to post a video demonstrating some of that
1. Barry Harris never wrote a book. Alan Kingstone wrote a book based on his ideas, and that's what people are referring to Originally Posted by targuit
But Barry has never written anything. he gives weekly workshops in NYC, and i strongly suggest anyone go if they ever get the chance. it's quite a trip. it's in a community center gym, and the students range from beginners all the way up to first call, top tier players.
nothing is written out. Barry either demonstrates something on the piano, or just verbally tells you to play something. a lot of it is done by ear. it's quite demanding, and you have to stay on your toes the whole time.
2. the basics of his ideas are standard harmonic devices that arrangers have been using for years. the more advanced applications can help you come up with harmonic ideas that aren't in any standard (but could definitely be used in standards if you wanted).
how did jazz pioneers figure this stuff out? a variety of ways, including but not limited to theory. Barry taught Charles McPherson and Yusef Lateef, so it certainly worked for some people
again, this is "eh, close, but..." Originally Posted by targuit
you're missing the real good parts, and that's a disservice to it.
let me be clear: i don't consider myself a "Barry Harris acolyte." i've been to a number of his workshops, and really enjoyed them and got a ton out of them, but i don't consider him my "guru" by any means.
when i'm improvising, comping, arranging, or composing, i use a wide range of ideas and concepts that i've picked up over the years. Barry's ideas are just one thing i use out of many
what i do like about them is that they really encourage an exploratory, playful approach. it really is not overly theoretical at all, and it's baffling to me that they're being construed that way. it's not a "write out a telephone book full of every option" method. it's about trying different things and finding what you like.
you can use the method to find a bunch of things you already know and like. for some of those things, Barry's approach would be too cumbersome, and it might be easier to think of it another way. but at the same time, it makes you think in a different way and helps me find things that i never would have found otherwise
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