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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Show me one example in that book that shows you how to apply it to a standard!!!
    That's why that book doesn't sell
    he took a standard, wrote out an an entire arrangement, and went through it measure by measure explaining what he was doing. if that's not "applying it to a standard," then i don't know what more you could possibly want

    and that was after he spent the entire goddamn book saying "use this over a minor7 chord, use this for an altered dominant..." you seriously can't figure out how to apply that to standards?

    AND Alan Kingstone is a regular on this forum and is very generous answering questions. it's pretty much all spelled out for you, and if you haven't figured it out after four years....

    Amazon.com: guitarplayer007's review of The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar

    ...the only thing i can think of at this point is that you're just being willfully obtuse.

    people on this forum are hilarious sometimes.

    "Oh, Ted Greene is too much stuff, it's not musical..."

    "Oh, I don't know what to do with this Slonimsky book, some guy took the time to write out every single possible combination of notes, what am I EVER going to do with that?"

    "Oh, I just want an easy way to play jazz, is that too much?"

    but then post something like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Watch Jack Wilkins play chords, he never isn't moving
    Jack Wilkins is a great player, he knows his shit, and he worked really hard to get it together. if you want to sound like him, it's going to take some actual work. it's not going to be easy, and it's not going to be found in one book

    there are plenty of resources out there for people interested in advanced harmony on a guitar: Ted Greene, Mick Goodrick, Sid Jacobs, Steve Herberman, even the Van Eps and Chuck Wayne stuff would take you pretty far. and the Barry Harris stuff fits nicely with all that

    but it can't be both easy and hard. if being great were easy, everyone would be great. and part of getting to that level is learning how to sit down and figure things out even if nobody is there to give you the answer

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    Duh

  4. #28
    Its a waste of paper

  5. #29

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    It's always funny when people say "the greats didn't use... [books, computers, slow downers, etc.], as if that was by choice.

  6. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo
    It's always funny when people say "the greats didn't use... [books, computers, slow downers, etc.], as if that was by choice.


    True

  7. #31

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    The presents a concept and even has the voicings you just need to sit and experiment using it. If there an example you'd learn it, then struggle trying to apply that example to other tunes, but if you sit and experiment till the light bulb clicks on in your head then you know how to apply it to anything (even single line.) It's the process that teaches, not the answer.

    Like I heard an great sax player say recently. Learning Jazz is like going out and asking five people directions to a club. You'll get five different ways to get to the same place, then you'll probably discover another when you go.

  8. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    The presents a concept and even has the voicings you just need to sit and experiment using it. If there an example you'd learn it, then struggle trying to apply that example to other tunes, but if you sit and experiment till the light bulb clicks on in your head then you know how to apply it to anything (even single line.) It's the process that teaches, not the answer.

    Like I heard an great sax player say recently. Learning Jazz is like going out and asking five people directions to a club. You'll get five different ways to get to the same place, then you'll probably discover another when you go.
    Thx Docbop

    Still would like to see someone actually use these techniques on a Standard like My Romance or something similar

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Thx Docbop

    Still would like to see someone actually use these techniques on a Standard like My Romance or something similar
    Once you play with it awhile and get the sound in your ear, then you start hearing it all over. Hint play a bunch of V to I's, then listen to some people comp on standards, play some more V - I's now play the BH stuff. Bigger hint, remember the old rule in Jazz you can alway preceed a chord by it's own V.

  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    ...remember the old rule in Jazz you can alway preceed a chord by it's own V.
    ... and its corollary: you can precede that V by its iim7

  11. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Once you play with it awhile and get the sound in your ear, then you start hearing it all over. Hint play a bunch of V to I's, then listen to some people comp on standards, play some more V - I's now play the BH stuff. Bigger hint, remember the old rule in Jazz you can alway preceed a chord by it's own V.

    Thx Docbop

  12. #36
    Very nice Destinytot

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    ... and its corollary: you can precede that V by its iim7

    Yup, sub-dominant to dominant. That's another thing I'm picking of from the stuff I've been checking out, they looked at chords by function. Not all the numbering each chord from diatonic harmony, but simply which function as tonic, which sub-dominant, and which dominant. Thinking about it that was how ear training taught about hear chord by the pull of them or if they sounded at rest. It all come back to understanding what the ear hears and what the ear expects.

    Update: I forgot to mention iim7 to V is "the cycle" again.
    Another thing I that didn't hit me at first these guys always talking about "the cycle" is chord families don't matter to them, it's all about the root movement. Another old Jazz idiom of you can always turn a minor 7 into a dominant 7. Jazz players love their dominants because they can take so many liberties with them.
    Last edited by docbop; 11-12-2015 at 02:27 PM.

  14. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Its a waste of paper
    I can't understand this, in response to all of the actual input you've been given in this thread. Almost like you have some personal beef or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    If there an example you'd learn it, then struggle trying to apply that example to other tunes, but if you sit and experiment till the light bulb clicks on in your head then you know how to apply it to anything (even single line.) It's the process that teaches, not the answer.
    Absolutely this. I think the feeling that more examples would help is natural but somewhat misguided. When I was first learning out of some of those books with all of the examples, it was something like: read concept.....play example....ok,.now what?

    Then, one day, while playing through a tune, a Mickey baker intro line just came out "by accident". I was kind of blown away. I just "heard it" after recently having played it so many times. That "accident"changed the way I approached practicing things.

    Now, I try to make those things happen on purpose by:

    1. Applying everything to real tunes pretty quickly.
    2. Practicing fewer things at once. (I think everyone's different in this regard, but I'm a "one thing at a time plus tunes" guy).
    3. Let go of the idea of trying to discover a magical thought process for playing. Thought processes are for PRACTICING (My "accident" came from pre-hearing something I knew how to play.)

    The Barry Harris stuff is great. Put the time in on a couple of simple ideas until you don't have to "think" and try to purposefully integrate it into real music.

    William Leavitt's rhythm studies (or whatever they're called) in the modern method books are very solid as well. All the cesh lines are covered and altered moving voices with 5th's/9'th's etc ad well.

    You have to apply them to tunes yourself in most all of these books though.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-13-2015 at 07:40 AM.

  15. #39
    Thanks Matt,

    Rick Stone the Jazz Guitarist from NY actually has better examples of the Barry Harris thought process on his website then are in Alan Kingstone's book. Wish there were more like that to build on.

  16. #40
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Very nice Destinytot
    Thank you - it's kind of you to say so.

    I'd like to emphasise that I find Alan Kingstone's book helps with improvising (arranging/preparing, too); and I think improvising chord movement is a bigger and more beautiful deal.

  17. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Thank you - it's kind of you to say so.

    I'd like to emphasise that I find Alan Kingstone's book helps with improvising (arranging/preparing, too); and I think improvising chord movement is a bigger and more beautiful deal.

    Yes that's why I need to figure still chord movement out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ken

  18. #42
    Ok so My Module 4 opened today, still working on stuff from Modules 2 and 3 ...lol
    2 hours a day is just not enough, need to up some how and do more on weekends. This course has many things that need to be internalized and it takes time for ears and muscle memory to get it....But I love it!
    Ken

  19. #43
    Thanks Destinytot...I really appreciate your help!!!!
    I'm at work currently and can't watch the video, but will watch it tonight!!!!
    Thx again
    Ken

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Thanks Matt,

    Rick Stone the Jazz Guitarist from NY actually has better examples of the Barry Harris thought process on his website then are in Alan Kingstone's book. Wish there were more like that to build on.
    Here's some Rick Stone with Barry Harris, doing "Fried Pies"


  21. #45
    Thanks Mark!

  22. #46
    yes that would be great Destinytot!!!
    Ken

  23. #47

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    I'm not too familiar with the Barry Harris concept, but I stumbled upon this and it sounded like it could be relevant to this thread:


  24. #48
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    yes that would be great Destinytot!!!
    Ken
    Which standard?

  25. #49

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    For what it's worth I've been asking the same question as the original poster. I am not a good player but I'm looking to improve and want to get more movement into my playing. I can play through standards but by using pretty vanilla chords and without any interesting movement. I was in a band for a short while and this taught me how much more I needed to learn. I bought Roni Ben Hur's DVD and found it very helpful. It introduces much of Barry Harris' concept. However for me rather than the maj and minor 6th diminished scales, I am more comfortable with minor 7 and minor 7 flat 5 scales which are exactly the same thing. For example c maj6 = am7 and cm6 = am7b5. Same with the chords, and how just a small set of chords can be used for so many different applications or substitutions. I may well change my opinion as I learn more and improve. I'm transcribing the chord solo to "Gone with the wind" by Wes Montgomery and there aree loads of the concepts Roni Ben Hur talks about in there. Learning to hear the chords is really hard work, but with knowledge of the chord progression, and modern equipment that allows one to play the same chord over and over until one can hear all the notes helps. I don't know if I am on the right track but the more I try the more I believe that familiarity and ear training are the most important things, and the most progress I have ever made is through transcribing, so I would say try and transcribe your favourite comping or chord solo pieces, you probably already have enough head knowledge to make progress.

  26. #50

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    I think your observation is dead on as regards the minor sixth concept. I find it much simpler to think in terms of flat fifths and diminished chords along with using my ears. But you don't get to spend mucho denaro on the books and methods and DVDs.

    In my heart I think - much ado about nothing - but I can't say that aloud....OOOPS!