Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

**guitarplayer007** · 12-11-2015, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I think you mean Barry Harris. (There is also Barry Greene, a fine player and teacher who has students here.)

No I meant Barry Greene, I used to subscribe to his site

**Reg** · 12-11-2015, 08:45 PM

Hey Destiny... I'll get into it later again, It;s really fairly simple.

Yea Jonah... there are different types of movement, depending on the relationships between the notes etc..

Hey 55bar... the approach your taking is generally what makes comping seem so complicated. There are comping skills and then what changes you use with those comping skills.

If you just learn the basic changes and have three versions of each based on root 6,5 and 4 string, You'll have more than you need to comp through almost anything. You just need to learn how to comp or create chordal movement. Like I always say with jazz and generally with most live performance music... using a lead line works best.

You can play root 6 full chords for ever... just don't let the entire chord ring etc... use dynamics and pull the note out of a few basic chords to create what your after,... I'll check in later

**docbop** · 12-11-2015, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I think you mean Barry Harris. (There is also Barry Greene, a fine player and teacher who has students here.)

I like Barry Greene's lesson site lots of excellent materials.

**MarkRhodes** · 12-11-2015, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by docbop

I like Barry Greene's lesson site lots of excellent materials.

Yeah, Barry's a first-rate player and a good teacher. Nice guy too. He's another one who recommends being able to play all the changes of a tune in one position (and then another), among other things.

**guitarplayer007** · 12-11-2015, 10:02 PM

Yes was on his site for a while, don't recall if he had any lessons on chord movement

**Moonray** · 12-12-2015, 03:18 AM

They are pretty much all about chord movement.

Maybe you missed it........

**55bar** · 12-12-2015, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey Destiny... I'll get into it later again, It;s really fairly simple.

Yea Jonah... there are different types of movement, depending on the relationships between the notes etc..

Hey 55bar... the approach your taking is generally what makes comping seem so complicated. There are comping skills and then what changes you use with those comping skills.

If you just learn the basic changes and have three versions of each based on root 6,5 and 4 string, You'll have more than you need to comp through almost anything. You just need to learn how to comp or create chordal movement. Like I always say with jazz and generally with most live performance music... using a lead line works best.

You can play root 6 full chords for ever... just don't let the entire chord ring etc... use dynamics and pull the note out of a few basic chords to create what your after,... I'll check in later

Hi Reg,

I'm not using that Method for comping, I'm I'm using it to learn the tunes and to see where all the individual notes within a chord or harmony "could" lead. Rather than just use grips, (which I do in the previous Video i posted in the thread)

I'm just trying to open up and look at voices in a different way, A sort of path through the progression which doesn't use grips or a set Arpeggio pathway that sounds predictable, using both ways (for me) is really helping me find chordal movement.

I do understand that "comping skills" are a different thing, and what chord one chooses also has a massive input here. That's why I'm spending ages learning back cycling and subs from Barry.

I just thought that some people may like the exercise (as I did). Some may not I guess, just trying to put a different angle on things, but maybe I'm confusing the matter.

I really enjoy your posts by the way and already learning loads from you.

**docbop** · 12-12-2015, 03:59 AM

Want to study chord movement go to the master Bach and his chorales. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they are all written for four voices (four note chords). Pick one, put on a pot of coffee, make a copy or two of the chorale you're going to analyze so you can write on it and make notes. Then sit and figure out what chords are going on. Then study each voice and how they are move in relation to each other. Then play each voice on your guitar and hear the melody one voice creates. Want to have fun if you have a looper build up a loop of all four voices and listen.

This is the kind of thing you do on lunch hour at work, late at night when you can't make noise at home, go to get coffee at diner (or similar joint). This is what being into music is about when not doing something necessary like work, family you take ever spare minute to work on music be it with your guitar, with studying some music, listening to music, or listening to the music in your head. This is why people get into Jazz because there is always something to learn, always another way to navigate a song, always experimenting.

Here a pdf of 40 of Bach's chorales.
http://www.pjb.com.au/mus/arr/us/satb_chorales.pdf

I hope Jazz Advice doesn't mind I borrowed a graphic from their site.

Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards-hargrovelistening-jpg

Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards-hargrovelistening-jpg

**55bar** · 12-12-2015, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by docbop

Want to study chord movement go to the master Bach and his chorales. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they are all written for four voices (four note chords). Pick one, put on a pot of coffee, make a copy or two of the chorale you're going to analyze so you can write on it and make notes. Then sit and figure out what chords are going on. Then study each voice and how they are move in relation to each other. Then play each voice on your guitar and hear the melody one voice creates. Want to have fun if you have a looper build up a loop of all four voices and listen.

This is the kind of thing you do on lunch hour at work, late at night when you can't make noise at home, go to get coffee at diner (or similar joint). This is what being into music is about when not doing something necessary like work, family you take ever spare minute to work on music be it with your guitar, with studying some music, listening to music, or listening to the music in your head. This is why people get into Jazz because there is always something to learn, always another way to navigate a song, always experimenting.

Here a pdf of 40 of Bach's chorales.
http://www.pjb.com.au/mus/arr/us/satb_chorales.pdf

I hope Jazz Advice doesn't mind I borrowed a graphic from their site.

Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards-hargrovelistening-jpg

I spent a whole year studying Bach chorales at college, until I could write "in the style of" they are beautiful and mind blowing.

The exercise i'm using on ATTYA is just a way of running those on the guitar and hearing the standard almost like a chorale.

For me it doesn't confuse things it just solidifies everything, sometimes using two seemingly different approaches aid each other.

Why do A OR B when you can do both?

destinytot · 12-12-2015, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

Yea Doc... that's what I've been posting for years. The lead line or whatever you want to call the melody of what your playing, is whats going on. You are just voicing the changes below from whatever harmonic approach(s) your using.

generally it's either the basic I V or target tonal tonic and Dominant harmonic structure,

the I IV or again target tonal target and subdominant harmonic structure'

I VI or I III or some type of tonic to tonic movement, sometimes modal like.

And then instead of just one chord or voicing you begin to use II V's like wes or any other Chord Pattern. Add subs, approach etc... and again like wes use blue notes.

The biggest aspect most seem to have difficulty with is realizing the melody also works as a single spatial reference also, just like chord patterns. All the notes don't need to line up and fit neatly like in maj/min Functional harmony. Generally when you don't have every single aspect line up perfect... it works and sound better. The melodic phrases or licks and the chord Patterns or standard short chord phrases work and function as one harmonic reference.

There is organization going on... just more than one at a time.

Hey Reg!

"Modal Interchange"?

A mouthful, a name to conjure with, possibly a fork in the stylistic road - and if so, a point at which I definitely took a wrong turn.

I thought that road led to just a bunch of obscure scales - ones which I could either take or leave, and I chose to dismiss them as having no value in the music I want to make.

I now think that I simply failed to see what I'm starting to see now: that modal interchange is a 'must-have' for me.

(I'm in a similar position to a guy I'm trying to help on another thread - having a blinding flash of what might seem obvious to others.)

I definitely want to have interesting/unpredictable chord substitution choices available - talk about spice! Fountain of Youth, more like. Posting this parody and cautionary tale as a reminder to myself:

I really do see Reg as a master craftsman because of the learning - 'apprenticeship' - which he fosters. I'd love to hear you break it down. I found this, which speaks for itself:

And I'll close with a clip which is especially 'moving' for me. Sean Levitt. For me, in the heart of God:

**55bar** · 12-12-2015, 05:51 AM

Ok so I've been wracking my brains since the whole "Barry Harris method for guitar" subject came up, thinking where have I seen this before. Then I remembered a few years back I took some online lessons from Dix Nacey. This guy is killin! His site has some great free stuff also check the YouTube Chanel I think he is called dragondix or something like that this video on 2-5-1 has some lovely movement he starts simple and builds more movement into the progression. Hope it helps. No affiliation blah blah

Ps not saying he's using the BH method here he just teaches it on his site

destinytot · 12-12-2015, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by NSJ

.....

That's the crux of if, from what I can gather.

I'm honestly not sure what Targuit is asking,honestly; he seems to be saying both he knows nothing of the BH system but yet claim people have got along fine without it (?).

I just told him he should probably study it more extensively. That is all.

Where's the applause button? Seriously, I think this deserves an ovation. Thank you. Your sense of decorum sets an example to follow.

destinytot · 12-12-2015, 06:09 AM

Sent to moderators:
"...if not OCD enough for you" goes beyond rude - nothing of value (and of direct relevance to topic) gets learned where this sort of nonsense goes on.

Regardless of how others deal with it, I want to register my disapproval.

Thanks, guys."

**55bar** · 12-12-2015, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Sent to moderators:
"...if not OCD enough for you" goes beyond rude - nothing of value (and of direct relevance to topic) gets learned where this sort of nonsense goes on.

Regardless of how others deal with it, I want to register my disapproval.

Thanks, guys."

Woah...... What happened man?? Did I miss something?

destinytot · 12-12-2015, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by 55bar

Woah...... What happened man?? Did I miss something?

Old news, and just me sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong. But it affects me, so I'm making it my business. And I'll give my reason again: that stuff undermines learning. Not with my approval.

Modal Interchange... it seems to make available movement towards sounds via routes outside the scope of the ear's habitual experience.

To me, the frame of reference definitely seems to be conceptual - perhaps purely visual in the first instance (encoded in number, dots on a stave, or on an instrument)? - although it seems obvious that familiarity/recall would make the sounds accessible to the ear once acquired.

Hence, ultimately, good players 'play by ear'. Independent listening (ear training) vs interactive ear training (performance).

Talk about 'creating chord movement'... I'd love to see Troy Grady go to town on the idea, graphics, imagistic language and all ('seismic shift' - couldn't resist). Atlas also comes to mind.

If I understand the idea correctly, modal interchange reminds me of the old joke about the 'creative' accountant who, when asked "How much is two plus two?", answers "How much do you want it to be?"

Looking forward to learning about it. I kind of imagine a lot of the sounds are in the sort of fusion grooves of which I have plenty on vinyl, but if anyone could point out some specific tunes that would be

!

**55bar** · 12-12-2015, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Old news, and just me sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong. But it affects me, so I'm making it my business. And I'll give my reason again: that stuff undermines learning. Not with my approval.

Modal Interchange... it seems to make available movement towards sounds via routes outside the scope of the ear's habitual experience.

To me, the frame of reference definitely seems to be conceptual - perhaps purely visual in the first instance (encoded in number, dots on a stave, or on an instrument)? - although it seems obvious that familiarity/recall would make the sounds accessible to the ear once acquired.

Hence, ultimately, good players 'play by ear'. Independent listening (ear training) vs interactive ear training (performance).

Talk about 'creating chord movement'... I'd love to see Troy Grady go to town on the idea, graphics, imagistic language and all ('seismic shift' - couldn't resist). Atlas also comes to mind.

If I understand the idea correctly, modal interchange reminds me of the old joke about the 'creative' accountant who, when asked "How much is two plus two?", answers "How much do you want it to be?"

Looking forward to learning about it. I kind of imagine a lot of the sounds are in the sort of fusion grooves of which I have plenty on vinyl, but if anyone could point out some specific tunes that would be

!

Good for you, let's keep this about learning. Hope I don't get schooled for recommending another book but I liked this.

Modal Jazz Composition & Harmony Vol.1 by Ron Miller

destinytot · 12-12-2015, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by 55bar

Good for you, let's keep this about learning. Hope I don't get schooled for recommending another book but I liked this.

Modal Jazz Composition & Harmony Vol.1 by Ron Miller

Dear Santa...

**NSJ** · 12-12-2015, 07:19 AM

Ed Bickert on chords, grips and harmony --" I was playing grips that weren't in the instruction manual "

**grahambop** · 12-12-2015, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Sent to moderators:
"...if not OCD enough for you" goes beyond rude - nothing of value (and of direct relevance to topic) gets learned where this sort of nonsense goes on.

Regardless of how others deal with it, I want to register my disapproval.

Thanks, guys."

Destinytot, totally agree with you, that's exactly what I thought. Someone may think a method is of no use, but we can still conduct the discussion without such condescending, sneering remarks. And this was in reply to a perfectly reasonable and balanced comment by Navdeep.

destinytot · 12-12-2015, 08:18 AM

Talk about not seeing the wood for the trees... I bought a book by Barry Nettles a while back, but haven't opened it. I do use Alan's book - because even though I haven't got my chops together (yet), I want to be READY to apply it to bebop.

So here's what Barry Nettles says (his caps and bold): "MODAL INTERCHANGE IS THE BORROWING OF DIATONIC CHORDS FROM A PARALLEL MODE (SCALE) AND USING THEM IN THE PRIMARY SCALE"

He goes on to say "Modal interchange between minor tonalities is a very common practice in contemporary minor key tunes."

(There is no way I could study this on guitar - I just don't know my fretboard well enough

- but I can study... dare I say it... m-m- m-MODES at a keyboard and look within them for chords.)

destinytot · 12-12-2015, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Destinytot, totally agree with you, that's exactly what I thought. Someone may think a method is of no use, but we can still conduct the discussion without such condescending, sneering remarks*. And this was in reply to a perfectly reasonable and balanced comment by Navdeep.

Thank you, grahambop. I hail from the south-east of England, and I think this music is the perfect antidote to the solemn streak on which too many of us Brits trade. I see it as an existential choice - it's the singer not the song (and it's the secret to Reg's rhythm). By the way, I love your lines - respect and props to you, and thanks again.

EDIT I could pontificate about this* - but (seriously) he needs help. I'm not cut out for that. (They say 'don't judge', I don't agree. But I do say 'don't condemn'.)

**grahambop** · 12-12-2015, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Thank you, grahambop. I hail from the south-east of England, and I think this music is the perfect antidote to the solemn streak on which too many of us Brits trade. I see it as an existential choice - it's the singer not the song (and it's the secret to Reg's rhythm). By the way, I love your lines - respect and props to you, and thanks again.

EDIT I could pontificate about this* - but (seriously) he needs help. I'm not cut out for that. (They say 'don't judge', I don't agree. But I do say 'don't condemn'.)

Ha ha, know exactly what you mean about us melancholy Brits finding an answer in jazz! I was reading something by Ronnie Scott or Johnny Dankworth, forget which, and they described the amazing impact that hearing jazz and bebop had on them, in the miserable grey post-war rationing atmosphere.

Thanks for your kind comments. Love your singing by the way - very warm rich voice you have!

The great thing about this forum is all the pooled knowledge and advice that's available, usually conducted in a helpful manner. I'm very pleased to have discovered Alan Kingstone's book from this thread - I'm still immersed in it and really enjoying it.

To me, jazz is one big positive. Negative attitudes don't belong in it! I can get those every day in the 'real world' if I want them.

**targuit** · 12-12-2015, 09:59 AM

Mike - You look a bit silly on your rickety chair in that park in London where people get up to proselytize for various causes with your call for censorship of speech. Goodness gracious! Your rectitude does not become you. Yearning for the return of Generalissimo Franco, are we?

I have not read the book in question, but I have not criticized it in any way. As for the study of jazz methodology or functional harmony, I am all for it. But it can become a bit obsessional compulsive, don't you think? Or perhaps you have not read the threads on practice schedules. Sounds dreary to me...

Jazz is supposed to be fun.

Someone here finally attempted to explain the bare bones theory and that helped understand it somewhat. I just hear it. Culpa mea. I got some modest consolation in the words of Martin Taylor. Some of us may have to just "wing it"....

**targuit** · 12-12-2015, 10:15 AM

I do sincerely apologize for not goose stepping ...err...walking in step with Mike's opinion, which apparently is the standard by which all things are judged.

Sorry, Navdeep - I did not intend to offend, just to tease a bit. You do tend to get rather analytical and ...well, compulsive in your approach. Different strokes for different folks. But at least you did get my point that many of the very standards in question somehow were written by composers who had not read material about Barry Harris.

Hard as that apparently is to conceive for some folks....

**grahambop** · 12-12-2015, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by targuit

I have not read the book in question, but I have not criticized it in any way.

I must be living on a different planet then:

"Or to put it another way - reading about how to use diminished chords, minor flat fifths or if you prefer min sixths can be enlightening to those who don't know how to use their ears. If you know this stuff to the point that you don't even think about it anymore, it becomes mental masturbation."