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  1. #751

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... nice post 55bar,

    So matt.... in somewhat short... Using chord relationships to create sources of blue notes.
    55 was giving examples of how to organize your sources...

    The application aspect is what is the tonal reference... the tonal target,

    So as 55 was using... key of F. F G A Bb C D E

    basic blue notes...
    b3 or #9......Ab or G#
    b7...............B or Cb
    b5 or #11....Eb or D#

    So all his applications are for finding the blue notes from chordal relationships... with an organization... subs and modal interchange. The trick personally becomes....
    1) the target, what is the use of the blue note in relationship to... tonal target

    2) the other aspect is how I use the blue notes... whatever the tonal target, in relationship to the basic harmonic rhythm pattern of whatever I'm playing. ... basically different chords have different Blue Notes.

    The use of modal interchange as 55 was doing to change source of new chord etc... needs to also be organized.
    And the organization has a few levels... rhythm will generally force almost anything to work.... as long as you have the skill.
    By that I mean to always have an overall Spatial Form that will or would repeat... which basically just spatially keeps the organization balanced. the groove etc... makes the patterns FEEL right.

    The other two organizational aspects are Harmony and melodic. You seem to get how I use basically melodic groove lines on top to also organize... both with harmonic rhythm, how the melodic lines organizes the chords or voicing I play... and the same with the Blue Notes... the melodic line helps organize the Blue Notes , through use of spatial location and accents.

    It will all comedown to just saying I play what I hear and feel... but I have put in the time to understanding what and why I hear and feel. And can mechanically breakdown.... and I can repeat what I play in different situations. From understanding what I'm playing.
    Hi Reg,

    Just a quick clear up. Basic blues notes.

    Did you mean:

    Ab =b3 or #9
    Eb = b7
    B or Cb= #11

    Didn't want anyone to get confused.

    Also, you mentioned

    •"understanding the relationship to the target chord"

    So if I put a #11 on chord 6 (D7#11) that relationship to the next chord will depend on what you do to it right?

    Could be

    •Gm7/9 so you could look at is as an enclosure or approach to the 9th of Gm9

    •or a passing note to the tonic of Gm


    Right?


    If I use G713 as my II chord then the relationships change.

    •b9


    If I use Db9 as another sub before I hit my II then.


    •the #11 of D becomes a common tone the

    •5th of Db9

    Am I getting the hang of this?

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  3. #752

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    Hi Reg,

    Just a quick clear up. Basic blues notes.

    Did you mean:

    Ab =b3 or #9
    Eb = b7
    B or Cb= #11

    Didn't want anyone to get confused.

    Also, you mentioned

    •"understanding the relationship to the target chord"

    So if I put a #11 on chord 6 (D7#11) that relationship to the next chord will depend on what you do to it right?

    Could be

    •Gm7/9 so you could look at is as an enclosure or approach to the 9th of Gm9

    •or a passing note to the tonic of Gm


    Right?


    If I use G713 as my II chord then the relationships change.

    •b9


    If I use Db9 as another sub before I hit my II then.


    •the #11 of D becomes a common tone the

    •5th of Db9

    Am I getting the hang of this?
    Hey 55 thanks for pointing out my mistakes... really, I'm usually doing too many things and don't check... I just type off top of my head.
    Again thanks...

    So your thinking in the right direction... So example #1... your tonal target is the II chord, G-7. Your now creating a functional tonal world that revolves around... G-7 or what ever you choose. the naming of the note with relationship to the target... G. So using D7#11...isn't really very bluesy right... The blue notes of G are generally Bb F and C#... none of those are in D7#11.

    But you can use them as you explained... the #11, G# to the 13, B then to 9th of G-9 can result in typical melodic organization... (generally in that example I would play D7#11 to Ab7b13#9 then G-9... right the motion thing)

    So just this thinking process will open many harmonic doors of organization... some sound great... some don't. But at least your approaching performing with more than just luck etc...

    Whatever type of organization you use, it generally works better when there is a patterns which will repeat... and even better when the type of organization also has a repeating pattern with the basic tonality of tune, section of tune, or even just the chord pattern being used.

    The typical Blue note applications in a I VI II V are to use ...
    The I chord as target... in F... as above, blue notes, Ab, Eb and B and root F... So all your changes to the VI , II and V chords would include those note(s).
    D7#11 only has the G#... no Eb or B...or NO root F... so if you were to use a functional value system... basically on a scale of 1 to 10,
    you have a 2.5... not great but can work. where as the D7b13#9... has two, b3 and b7... plus the root F. We're getting pretty Blue there. Also can use same D7altered to imply blues with tonal target of G... I know there is no G or root but there are a few approaches... use actual blue notes as tonal targets... the F from D7altered or b7 of G-7 can easily become become melodic target with blue note implications..... (basically using Blues licks with target of F).

    And obviously with the target being G-7... it's very natural to Modal interchange G-7 to becoming a III- chord or phrygian and again your getting bluesy... a different tonal style of blues but still blues.

    Then there are more references right... anytime you have a II V I... any of those can become the tonal target. From hearing some of your playing... (55)... you seem to get or hear basic Blue note applications with II V's. Very close to the bearded Trumpet teachers approach... approach any target with a blues lick to establish target. Any chord can become the tonal target... and if you develop these skills... you can begin to imply targets that are not from the progression. They do usually have a basic tonal relationship.
    I generally have functional values to everything, based on traditional use of Tonic, subdominant and dominant with relationships.

    All this is based on functional analysis of whatever I'm playing or looking at. I make decisions on analysis and apply from there. And of course... there are always possibilities. Having a very physical understanding of just what those possibilities are... is generally what allows me personally to perform without memorizing what I'm going to play. The down side is you need to have your technical skills very together. I did the technical thing as a kid.... maybe a young man.

    Sorry about the long post... but there is a lot of information just by itself... then the applications.
    Last edited by Reg; 01-18-2016 at 07:42 PM.

  4. #753

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey 55 thanks for pointing out my mistakes... really, I'm usually doing too many things and don't check... I just type off top of my head.
    Again thanks...

    So your thinking in the right direction... So example #1... your tonal target is the II chord, G-7. Your now creating a functional tonal world that revolves around... G-7 or what ever you choose. the naming of the note with relationship to the target... G. So using D7#11...isn't really very bluesy right... The blue notes of G are generally Bb F and C#... none of those are in D7#11.

    But you can use them as you explained... the #11, G# to the 13, B then to 9th of G-9 can result in typical melodic organization... (generally in that example I would play D7#11 to Ab7b13#9 then G-9... right the motion thing)

    So just this thinking process will open many harmonic doors of organization... some sound great... some don't. But at least your approaching performing with more than just luck etc...

    Whatever type of organization you use, it generally works better when there is a patterns which will repeat... and even better when the type of organization also has a repeating pattern with the basic tonality of tune, section of tune, or even just the chord pattern being used.

    The typical Blue note applications in a I VI II V are to use ...
    The I chord as target... in F... as above, blue notes, Ab, Eb and B and root F... So all your changes to the VI , II and V chords would include those note(s).
    D7#11 only has the G#... no Eb or B...or NO root F... so if you were to use a functional value system... basically on a scale of 1 to 10,
    you have a 2.5... not great but can work. where as the D7b13#9... has two, b3 and b7... plus the root F. We're getting pretty Blue there. Also can use same D7altered to imply blues with tonal target of G... I know there is no G or root but there are a few approaches... use actual blue notes as tonal targets... the F from D7altered or b7 of G-7 can easily become become melodic target with blue note implications..... (basically using Blues licks with target of F).

    And obviously with the target being G-7... it's very natural to Modal interchange G-7 to becoming a III- chord or phrygian and again your getting bluesy... a different tonal style of blues but still blues.

    Then there are more references right... anytime you have a II V I... any of those can become the tonal target. From hearing some of your playing... (55)... you seem to get or hear basic Blue note applications with II V's. Very close to the bearded Trumpet teachers approach... approach any target with a blues lick to establish target. Any chord can become the tonal target... and if you develop these skills... you can begin to imply targets that are not from the progression. They do usually have a basic tonal relationship.
    I generally have functional values to everything, based on traditional use of Tonic, subdominant and dominant with relationships.

    All this is based on functional analysis of whatever I'm playing or looking at. I make decisions on analysis and apply from there. And of course... there are always possibilities. Having a very physical understanding of just what those possibilities are... is generally what allows me personally to perform without memorizing what I'm going to play. The down side is you need to have your technical skills very together. I did the technical thing as a kid.... maybe a young man.

    Sorry about the long post... but there is a lot of information just by itself... then the applications.

    Boom.


    Reg thank you,

    I think I'm finally getting this, this week I'll try and post some tunes I'm working on with this idea in mind.


    Game changer. This for me is gold.

  5. #754

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    Does any else think the melodic #4/b5 blue is an entirely different entity to the harmonic b5/#11 or am I the solitary wierdo?

    To me they are different. Which is not to say that they are unrelated, but when I put a blues third on a major chord I am not thinking of a 7#9 altered or half-whole context. I am thinking of it as a melody note.

    If I had to sum up the difference between my approach and reg's I would say that I do not necessarily rationalise blue notes in terms of melodic minor modes. I call this approach 'vertical thinking' and I would regard this as the basis of a lot of modern jazz harmony.

  6. #755

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    Hey Christian... sure it can be very different, but so can #9 or b3 melodically or harmonically... and yea your analysis is very common between my understandings of what is jazz and yours. But with out a reference... what are we talking about.

    I'm not saying this to knock any style of approach to playing any music... but do you think you might be missing something.
    I generally look at music both vertically and horizontally all the time, usually throw in spatial aspects and all the other BS. When I perform pop gigs or record... I play the style of the music, and if I don't get it ... I'm all ears.

    I'm in studios for two different projects this week... ones basically jazz pop... and the other is a blend of jazz and brazillian.

    two very different styles of performance and note choices... both vertically and horizontally... and all the other BS. Both will have notated out parts with solo sections etc... I haven't seen the parts, but pretty typical.

    There are a few common practice blue note references... not just MM. I just tend to use MM for Jazz relationships ... not always...

  7. #756

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Christian... sure it can be very different, but so can #9 or b3 melodically or harmonically... and yea your analysis is very common between my understandings of what is jazz and yours. But with out a reference... what are we talking about.

    I'm not saying this to knock any style of approach to playing any music... but do you think you might be missing something.
    I generally look at music both vertically and horizontally all the time, usually throw in spatial aspects and all the other BS. When I perform pop gigs or record... I play the style of the music, and if I don't get it ... I'm all ears.

    I'm in studios for two different projects this week... ones basically jazz pop... and the other is a blend of jazz and brazillian.

    two very different styles of performance and note choices... both vertically and horizontally... and all the other BS. Both will have notated out parts with solo sections etc... I haven't seen the parts, but pretty typical.

    There are a few common practice blue note references... not just MM. I just tend to use MM for Jazz relationships ... not always...
    Your approach is basically the same as mine in that case.... It's good to have them both as you say.

    I have had some strange conversations with vertical thinkers - often great players. Take a smooth one. It seems obvious to me that the melody to this tune is a bluesy swing riff structured around the tonal centre (based heavily around f6 with a blues b3 and a couple of passing tones) and that the chord progression is being dealt with as a static vamp in f.

    My colleague was trying to rationalise everything in terms of vertical relationships. It's odd because he only plays swing gigs, it's not like he's a modern cat. And he is very good at swing.

    In the end the pianist (the pianist!!!) basically said 'it's the blooz silly.' And then we could get back to talking about farts.

    I also know a fantastic bop improviser who is a bit puzzled this song. I tried to point out that playing the changes all the time on it was not necessary. (If you do want to blow on the changes its actually a pretty typical turnaround - it's in night and day and djangology for example.)

    Anyway not sure what my point was. I'll nip off before the train goes awol.. :-)

  8. #757

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    Yea... changes can be looked and heard in different perspectives... Like I always push... jazz is about chord patterns, and the possibilities that that chord pattern creates or can imply. And yes... it's very typical to hear or call chord patters... one tonal reference, and then use a dominant tonic melodic pattern for creating the melodic motion.... any functional type of movement etc... Somewhat like the relationship between pedals or ostinatos and melodic or chordal lines.

    It all works... I have just spent my life listening and trying to organize what I was listening to. So I could repeat.

    Maybe the years I spent composing, writing and arranging music forced me into always being aware of as many aspects of music as I could. And I'm still learning... I was diggin what Jordon was doing with his triad usage. Made me stop and rethink some of my use of triads.... not the concept. I move basic triadic structures around with added notes all the time... but not with the voicing organization Jordon used. Fun to hear and looking forward to more.

    This thread has personally been great for opening up basic jazz harmonic principles of organization and structure...

  9. #758
    A lot in that post...
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    where as the D7b13#9... has two, b3 and b7... plus the root F. We're getting pretty Blue there. Also can use same D7altered to imply blues with tonal target of G... I know there is no G or root but there are a few approaches... use actual blue notes as tonal targets... the F from D7altered or b7 of G-7 can easily become become melodic target with blue note implications..... (basically using Blues licks with target of F).
    D7b13#9 with F as the tonal target vs. D7b13#9 with G as the tonal target?

    What does that look like/sound like? Or is it just that that the scale derived from trying to utilize those blue notes relative to F leads you to an altered scale which can be dominant of G?

    Also, regarding melodic minor, you're not using it functionally in relation to minor, and a lot of it is very symmetrical sounding, how do you imply different things with it? Are you talking about targeting melodically like enclosures etc., or how the MM pitches resolve to the target chord tones? I guess that's mostly how I hear altered. I guess because it has so many different applications it can take you a lot of different places?

    More broadly, where to start with all of it? Applications to V7 are a little more obvious I guess. You've mentioned the 2nd tritone in MM before, and using it as a reference . You've mentioned sub of subs before. Do you just work your way back to other chord types (besides dominant) using similar?

    What's the structure and sequence for approaching the study of all of this if you're Reg back in the day? Where do you start? :-)

    Lastly, if you showed us some reference altered fingerings for voicings , lead lines, might be a good starting reference.... Do you use mostly the same in other applications besides just altered? Might be a good starting point for seeing some of this little better than just understanding in text. I guess it's hard to SEE on screen sometimes the context applications because the voicings are all from the parent, melodic minor, anyway. To the untrained eye it all just looks melodic minor? Does that make sense?

    Ha ha. A lot of questions. Always enjoy your posts. I understand a little more all along. Thanks always.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-19-2016 at 02:10 PM.

  10. #759

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    Hey Matt... I'll try and put a vid together...

  11. #760

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    Hey Matt remember this old Dolphin dance vid ... there are a bunch of MM blue note usage all through the vid... some different usages of not standard blue note... but Maybe I'll use tune to show some examples... Or would a standard be easier to see and hear... It doesn't really matter to me... really, any tune will work and also maybe we can get melodic applications of the same harmonic relationships.

  12. #761

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    I've been playing around with the dominant lead-line voicings reg posted. Refreshing perspective going top-down for a while.

    Love this one from Broadway, just 2 chords really, melody leads:

    7X788X
    6X677X
    X6767X
    X5656X
    B7#5
    Bb7#5
    Ebm7b5 (Gb-6 ) (F7alt) (tritone sub of B7)
    Dm7b5 (F-6) (E7 alt) (tritone sub of Bb7)

    Is that how you unravel the onion ??

  13. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    B7#5
    Bb7#5
    Ebm7b5 (Gb-6 ) (F7alt) (tritone sub of B7)
    Dm7b5 (F-6) (E7 alt) (tritone sub of Bb7)

    Is that how you unravel the onion ??
    Yeah. By "2 chords" I meant B7 to Bb7 (twice). Looking back, I guess it could have looked like I was saying 2 chord shapes.

    Any of those are right. I'd tend to look at them in context as B7#5, Bb7#5, B9, Bb9.

    Potayto, potahto... :-)

  14. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Or would a standard be easier to see and hear...
    Yeah, a standard might be easier, for me anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    really, any tune will work and also maybe we can get melodic applications of the same harmonic relationships.
    That would be really cool. I've done some basic 7 position melodic minor homework that I'd like to apply a little more.

  15. #764
    Was it 55bar who mentioned "Softly" a few pages back?



    Also, "There Will Never Be Another You" is next month's practical standards tune I think.

    Might be a good one as well...

    Just ideas...
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-20-2016 at 12:00 AM.

  16. #765

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Was it 55bar who mentioned "Softly" a few pages back?



    Also, "There Will Never Be Another You" is next month's practical standards tune I think.

    Might be a good one as well...

    Just ideas...
    Yes it was, also there is another one where Reg goes through a wes blues tune in Eb lots of great stuff in there.

    My method for learning all this is going through all of Reg's YouTube videos, •listening
    •pausing
    •copying
    •then applying the stuff I've learned to standards by setting up a backing track or Recording the melody of a tune with a click then comping to it.
    • writing wes style blues compositions or Latin/funk heads

    Abersold would have been AMAZING if they were allowed to have a horn player playing the heads.

    I'm slowly getting better but it's great fun.
    Last edited by 55bar; 01-20-2016 at 11:56 AM.

  17. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    Yes it was, also there is another one where Reg goes through a wes blues tune in Eb lots of great stuff in there.

    My method for learning all this is going through all of Reg's YouTube videos, •listening
    •pausing
    •copying
    •then applying the stuff I've learned to standards by setting up a backing track or Recording the melody of a tune with a click then comping to it.
    • writing wes style blues compositions or Latin/funk heads

    Abersold would have been AMAZING if they were allowed to have a horn player plating the heads.

    I'm slowly getting better but it's great fun.
    That's cool. Honestly, I had been frustrated with YouTube playback for this type of thing until the last week or two. I found these keyboard shortcuts , and realize what I had been missing in the process.

    http://digiwonk.wonderhowto.com/how-...utube-0161382/

    You can skip ahead or skip back five seconds or so using arrow keys , skip to different sections , (percentages within the video) using the 1 through 9 buttons etc. really pretty helpful...
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-20-2016 at 02:36 PM.

  18. #767
    There's also Stella. Lots of obvious, clean, first-level application of melodic minor. Could juxtapose and apply to more interesting applications as well?

  19. #768

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    B7#5
    Bb7#5
    Ebm7b5 (Gb-6 ) (F7alt) (tritone sub of B7)
    Dm7b5 (F-6) (E7 alt) (tritone sub of Bb7)

    Is that how you unravel the onion ??
    yea Navdeep could be... but I probable was just using that Expanded Diatonic chords a 3rd above and 3rd below method...
    So B7 sub is D#-7b5 or A#-7
    Or ... I usually use
    7 X 7 8 8 X
    6 X 6 7 8 X
    X 6 7 6 7 X
    X 5 6 5 6 X just depends on what lead line I want etc...

    And I would think be with reference to tonal target or Eb7... which becomes very blue note from Melodic minor
    X 4 5 5 4 X

    So it's all just bII - I bII - I
    which is in the end... just V - I right

    So even better...
    7 X 7 8 8 X
    6 X 6 7 8 X
    X 6 7 6 7 X
    X 5 6 5 6 X
    X 1 1 1 1 X
    X 4 5 5 4 X... that's starting to sound like me. I generally play very basic... no real complicated concepts. not that many voicing, nothing new of hip....but it does work. There is a beginning and an end.
    Last edited by Reg; 01-20-2016 at 10:00 AM.

  20. #769

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    Hey Matt... Stella's great idea... it's almost all just two bar phrases, easy to hear. Thanks... I'm gone today and tomorrow, I'll try and record playing through Stella with slower examples on Friday...

  21. #770
    Reg, the info you've posted has been unbelievably helpful, especially the Minor7th voicings. Thank you greatly

  22. #771

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    to be honest, i didn't read all the posts in this thread, it's quite long. I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but even if you get all the movement down and under the fingers. It won't mean anything without context. It's called accompaniment for a reason you know? Because you're accompanying a soloist. Needless to say, the role of being a comper in a rhythm section, is for you and the rhythm section trying to make the soloist sound the best as they can, and swing as hard as they can, e.g Wynton Kelly Trio and Wes at the Half note. You can just hear Kelly, Chambers and Cobb absorbing Wes' lines, and if not all the time, most of the time they manage to stay out of his way, and let him do his thing, and of course kick him up the ass with some serious swing.

    Oz