Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

[guitarplayer007]

Watch Jack, especially starting at 2.50

This guy never stops moving

[55bar]

Watch Jack, especially starting at 2.50

This guy never stops moving

Some of the best stuff out there! AMAZING!

[Jehu]

Hey 007, did you ever check this out? I mentioned it many pages ago. Might put you in the direction you're after.

[guitarplayer007]

Hey 007, did you ever check this out? I mentioned it many pages ago. Might put you in the direction you're after.

Ty yes
Ken

[NSJ]

Ty yes
Ken

Fareed is all about 4 note comping on the top 4 strings, using the guide tones (3rds and 7ths) or 6ths and 9ths, plus upper extensions on the top 2 strings, derived from 6th string root drop 3 chords and 5th string root drop 2 chords. That's what you'll be learning.

It seems to me that you really need to sit down and work out all your drop three (root on 6th string, root on 5th string) and drop 2 forms (root on 6th string, root on 5th string, root on 4th string) everywhere on the neck, all in root position plus the 3 inversions.

That's 20 different ways to play each associated 7th chord referenced in the last paragraph on the fingerboard.

That takes a long long time to really internalize, there are no shortcuts, if you are looking for shortcuts . I don't have Alan's book, but I got to presume that he teaches you that. I know 100% for a fact that Roni Ben Hurr's "Chordability " teaches you that .

Basically it's a shit load of work. It will not get done in one day, one week, one month, or even one year. But if you don't try and learn it systematically, Otherwise, you're just going to keep wondering how Jack Wilkins seems to go from chord to chord by 'magic'.

[mr. beaumont]

Hmmmm ever watch Jack Wilkins play,never stops moving though chords

Sounds like a lot of drop 2 voicings, some tritone subs to get chromatic bass movement, and some half step approaches from below/above. Nothing too complicated.

[Jonah]

Originally Posted by AlainJazz
Ken, here's an exercise that has helped me a lot and might give you useful insight into chord movement:

Choose any tune you like, preferably one whose changes you know well. Stick to one string set at a time. Take the first chord and play it in the first inversion that you can grab. Now play through the tune while forcing yourself to move physically up the neck with every new chord...



Wow, that's a great sounding exercise. I'll have to give this a go. Thanks!

I did approx. the same thing when I wanted to be more fluent with iversions... I played first Drop 3 on 6th string, then drop 3 on 5th string, then the same thing with Drop 2's (though i did know these drop names)))

It was fun to practice like this... though practically never do I use all the inversions still it improves much many other aspects of hearing and playing.

One point to add... it seems to me that inversion in jazz has often a bit different meaning in context than in classical... in classics it's the rotation of bass only, and the change in melody is another characteristic (often relatively independent from bass moves) called usuall melodic position of a chord.

So what i mean is taht in jazz - especiall in guitar 7th chord shapes - inversion involves both change of bass and melodic voice and they become kind of dependant...

So I - being classicaly trained I referenced inversion to bass mostly untill i got that for my purposes of jazz playing melodic reference for inverted chape might be useful much more often...

so began to play kind of 'studies'

I chose realtively simple 'vanilla' changes of some standard - and played either from memory or sight reading from real book - using strictly indicated 7th chord and its inversions with reference to melodic voice on highr string.. in q few different ways

`1) played only in one and single 'drop' form ( that is moving along the same strings always) - often sounds awkward harmonically - but that is a study
2) then I mixed it - for example: use only Drop 3 at 6th string and drop 3 at 5th string - reference to high melodic voice only and the shapes must be closest possible...

(For non-chordal melodic voice notes use fantasy or just dim chords)))

etc.

It was real fun

I know I do not use the inversions all the time.. and there are lots of cases where I would never harmonize the chordal note with inversions of it...

So you get to use to react to melody, to harmonize melody...

but actually this way you learn not only inversions, you learn chords and fretboard...

Inversions are there only in certain harmonic context - if you put them in different context you get independent chords...

When I began to play jazz I heard 3x243x almost strictly as Em7/G very soon I began to hear it as default chorf og G6... today I would probably hear it as Cmaj9 rootless...

For example I like the sound of 3rd in version of Maj chords in Drop 3, and 2nd inv in drop 2 - with its brisky minor 2nd on adjacent strings... but I like it exactly with this bass and probably not in typical vanilla harmonic context

Our ears change and the knowledge we have become specially valuable... the shape is just a shape teh meaning for it (if it tonic or inversion or wahtever) that's us whom imply it...

[grahambop]

I see 'chord movement' as being quite a broad term, so it covers virtually all the things that have been mentioned. But it can be a bit difficult to articulate what this means in words.

So it includes the example where the fakebook says C major for 2 bars, but you want to create more harmonic motion than just playing C major chords for 2 bars.

But it also includes the situation where the tune already has some movement e.g. 2 chords per bar, but you want to find more possibilities on those chords, maybe use some interesting subs, and add some additional chords to create transitions between those chords. In this context I think it also means creating a nice harmonic flow with the chords, i.e. voice leading, attractive movement of the inner voices of the chords as well as the top note.

I'm also seeing it as creating melodic 'lines' with the chords, so for me it means trying to get into a different mindset than I'm used to. Previously I would tend to view the chords almost like regular harmonic 'fences' to be negotiated. A couple of years ago I started playing around with those Wes Montgomery chord runs, and now I'm getting into the Barry Harris stuff, and I think it's helping me to see 'chord pathways' around the fingerboard rather than static shapes.

When considering a fairly simple tune like Autumn Leaves, I find I can visualise on the fingerboard a lot of suitable single-note lines that I could use to solo on this tune. Now I think I am beginning to see similar lines but made up of chords - that's what I mean by 'chord pathways'. The Barry Harris thing seems to help me with this because you just need to get 3 chord types down, i.e. maj6, min6, diminished. Everyone knows the diminished shapes anyway and they repeat up the neck, so that reduces the effort by almost 50% straightaway. If you look at Alan Kingstone's book, there really aren't that many chord shapes given in the first section, yet that's enough to get you up and running once you understand some of the rules of which chord 'family' or 'scale' is used when. I don't think you even need much theory to do this, for all the talk there has been of 'Barry Harris - too much theory' etc. Certainly I am not thinking much about theory when I apply these chords to actual tunes.

If you take all this to another level, I guess the topic also covers playing chord solos like Wes did, i.e. improvised lines which use fast-moving chord shapes instead of single notes. But I haven't got to that stage yet, maybe never will!

Anyway that's an attempt to describe what I think of as 'chord movement'.

[55bar]

Great stuff for one chord here

[destinytot]

I'm preparing to do battle with myself - 'putting on the foil', like the Hansons in the movie Slap Shot - and I've just commented elsewhere about the 'Tyranny of Should'. My point was about the importance of playing what you like - rather than having this defined for you.

The term 'vanilla' gets used a lot; I'm fine with it and I think I get it - but it does make me smile. I make my own ice cream and, whereas I used to go for the fancy or the exotic, I only make vanilla these days.

An exception is a variation on 'banoffee pie' - I think that might be known as 'banana cream pie' in the US - which I prepare as 'banoffee éclairs', by using home-made vanilla ice cream instead of that aerosol nonsense, as well as home-made caramel and choux pastry. (I don't grow my own bananas - but I do have a friend who does.)

As a flavouring, vanilla is simple - and sometimes simplicity is the order of the day, for example when the dish is an accompaniment. But when a dish calls for spice, a measure of sophistication is needed too. I like to think that Wynton Kelly - a Jamaican - could cook.

Then there's that great title of a job-seeker's manual by Richard Bolles, What Colour Is Your Parachute? - about careful and meticulous career planning - down to the colour of your parachute for landing safely if you decide to jump.

Build repertoire - with or without a recipe book - as long as you base it on knowing what you like, why you like it and how to do it.

Ready to do battle.

[Kingstone]

........................ The Barry Harris thing seems to help me with this because you just need to get 3 chord types down, i.e. maj6, min6, diminished. Everyone knows the diminished shapes anyway and they repeat up the neck, so that reduces the effort by almost 50% straightaway. If you look at Alan Kingstone's book, there really aren't that many chord shapes given in the first section, yet that's enough to get you up and running once you understand some of the rules of which chord 'family' or 'scale' is used when. I don't think you even need much theory to do this, for all the talk there has been of 'Barry Harris - too much theory' etc. Certainly I am not thinking much about theory when I apply these chords to actual tunes..............................

That is well said. Barry's theory is actually pretty simple though vast in implication. A few herbs and spices thrown together different ways to create your own flavor.

[guitarplayer007]

Great stuff for one chord here

Very cool, where do I join that site
Ken

[Reg]

So yea getting back to harmonic or chord movement....

You can get technical which is cool, but you need to understand theory and as Martin Taylor said... you need to understand Harmony. Takes a while.... but as I was getting into earlier in this thread and as Navdeep began getting into... The simplest approach to getting an understanding and maybe creating Harmonic Motion .... is to use basic musical terms of....
Tonic
Sub dominant
Dominant

Keeping it simple.... Tonic chords have the least amount of tension or reasons for having movement
Sub dominant covers all the middle area, they may want to move or not... but not at rest like tonic chords.
Dominant covers the most tension or reasons for movement... they want to move.

If you use the term Gravity... Tonic is at rest... can have movement but not because there is mechanical and physical reasons for the movement. Very little gravity

Subdominant chords begin to feel some gravity... but can fall back to tonic or can move further away to Dominant chords, which have the most gravity and want to fall back to tonic or at least subdominant.

I can and have given detailed explanations of how and why these three types of chords want to move or not. It's basically because of an organization of relationships between notes.
It's not really that important... whats important is you hear and understand that there are different levels of movement...

Not all movement is the same.... some has or creates the feel of more gravity... or has a bigger motor... you can use what ever analogy you choose , again what you need to be aware of is that different types of chords create stronger movement.

The BH method uses Dominant type of movement... It's basically I V I V etc... the I chords are camouflaged just as are the V chords but all those Dim chords have Dominant function or type of motion... all the other details are just frosting.

So chordal movement is just another tool for you as a jazz player... to create music. Just like most hear and pick up my rhythmic feels and how I use rhythm to create grooves etc... I also use different types of harmonic motion as a tool just like I use rhythm. Just as there are accent patterns... rhythmic attacks that create the feel, groove, help the tune lock,

The harmonic rhythm is also important... another tool to create this effect. It's not really an effect, it's what is actually going on... most just don't hear all the details yet, or can't verbally explain.

Please don't just think... I don't need these skills or I don't really need to understand all this BS, all I need is the melody and I'm good. Being able to hear changes isn't any different that being able to hear melodies.

I can hear and play back any figures or hear and play back changes etc.... it's the same thing. When I hear a melody, I hear the changes implied from the melody. These aren't magic skills... most pros or at least musicians who play all the time can... a bigger deal would be if you couldn't.

What gets interesting is how different types and levels of musicians will hear different melodic figures and very different changes... Think of Monks tune Bye-ya.... in the 1st measure, what's the note on beat 4.... the chord is Db7.

Anyway ... most don't hear what they're not aware of. I don't mean when you listen over and over, or slow down etc... everyone will hear it eventually.

The performance details are complicated on guitar... generally BH, most of the vids with open position and generally any use of notes close together and on lower strings... just doesn't work. When your performing solo or duo etc.. anything can work, depending on your skills, great players can make anything work. But where you should start is what works 60% to 80% of the time.

As I have said since I started posting on this forum... if your going to comp in a jazz style, you need to play off your lead lines. Your lead line or the melodic figure of what your comping need to work with the context of what or where ever your playing.
So I just recorded a short example of My Romance... just the 1st 8 bars or so.

I just played how I might without working anything out... my natural comping approach, what I like. I can play in a lot of different styles... and those styles would reflect what type of chord movement, the added chords and type of chords I would use.

Generally I already have a million chord patterns that I don't need to figure out... in the example of My Romance, I sort of get into the concept. If I'm approaching a Tonal Target, in My Romance the 5th bar or the relative minor version of the the 1st 4 bars, anyway depending on what type of Minor I want or the chart implies ... in the example... Amin. Typically Natural minor, Aeolian... I use chord patterns which imply Nat. Min. If I decided to use Dorian as my relative Min. I would use different chord patterns.

Anyway... what chords you use is related to the tonal organization and where you use them rhythmically and spatially is related to the feel and again spatial organization of tune... the FORM.

Here's short example... again this took the time to record.If I played it again the chords could be different... but the organization would be the same.

[55bar]

Very cool, where do I join that site
Ken

Jazz heaven . Com. You just buy the video, just for the "all the things you are" workout it's worth it.

[Reg]

If your going to get into Lage Lund approach which is very cool and great for solo or long slow moody types of tunes. What he trying to say is organization based on modal principles , anyway those approaches generally come after basic tonal comping or harmonic motion. Your just going to start mixing and matching what feels or sounds good at the moment and when you start performing with other musicians... long story Don't get into modal organization until you get tonal organization.

I've explained how modal organization can work many times and how you get from Lydian to Lydian#9 from 6th degree of Harmonic Minor or Lydian #9#5 from Harmonic Maj.... using modal interchange to create a different type of harmonic motion. It's not random.

But if you don't have the basic blue print or basic functional harmony or functional movement down... your just going to hit a wall and crash later.

[55bar]

If your going to get into Lage Lund approach which is very cool and great for solo or long slow moody types of tunes. What he trying to say is organization based on modal principles , anyway those approaches generally come after basic tonal comping or harmonic motion. Your just going to start mixing and matching what feels or sounds good at the moment and when you start performing with other musicians... long story Don't get into modal organization until you get tonal organization.

I've explained how modal organization can work many times and how you get from Lydian to Lydian#9 from 6th degree of Harmonic Minor or Lydian #9#5 from Harmonic Maj.... using modal interchange to create a different type of harmonic motion. It's not random.

But if you don't have the basic blue print or basic functional harmony or functional movement down... your just going to hit a wall and crash later.

I agree totally, this is where he is at now, what I was trying to say is, in his lesson on ATTYA, he goes through BASIC chordal movement in two notes at a time starting with the root note and a Third, leaving and octave between and approaching the third from below or above using notes diatonic to the chord.

When using on altered chords you can chose tensions. Take this process and to the next step by then choosing to have to 3rd in the bass then the 5th approached diatonically from above or below then the 5th in the bass with the 7th approached the same way.

This gives you a pseudo classical sound especially on ATTYA, but what is is GREAT for is getting your ears used to movement and opens up lots of sounds.

Once you have done that put the bass note up an octave, then put the movement in the bass. Nothing airy or modal about this approach just nuts and bolts.

[Jonah]

looks like ther's sometimes misunderstanding about idea of movement too...

plenty of chords does not necessarily make the feel of movement... movement comes usually from harmonic rythm jhow harmony changes correspod to rythm partterns strong weak beats...) and it exists within some concept of relation... like tension release etc.

there are plent of sample when there is lots of chords shifting but sounds absolutely stable (it's not bad - it could be the idea of the song actually)

[55bar]

looks like ther's sometimes misunderstanding about idea of movement too...

plenty of chords does not necessarily make the feel of movement... movement comes usually from harmonic rythm jhow harmony changes correspod to rythm partterns strong weak beats...) and it exists within some concept of relation... like tension release etc.

there are plent of sample when there is lots of chords shifting but sounds absolutely stable (it's not bad - it could be the idea of the song actually)

Misunderstanding in what way?

Can you show us where we are going wrong with a playing example?

[guitarplayer007]

I bought the Lage Lund chord vocabulary , it was $29.00 I'n not digging it yet, the stretches are crazy on these chords...lol

[55bar]

I bought the Lage Lund chord vocabulary , it was $29.00 I'n not digging it yet, the stretches are crazy on these chords...lol

Skip to the second section, where he talks about all the things you are, worth the money alone.

[guitarplayer007]

ok if you say so, those chord movements are cool, but the stretching is beyond me....also I guess this is much more modern harmony? I can't stretch from 1st to 6th fret and make a chord...lol ik think I should have joined Alan Kingstone school
Ken

[55bar]

ok if you say so, those chord movements are cool, but the stretching is beyond me....also I guess this is much more modern harmony? I can't stretch from 1st to 6th fret and make a chord...lol ik think I should have joined Alan Kingstone school
Ken

No stretches I that section

[55bar]

I think you mean Barry Harris. (There is also Barry Greene, a fine player and teacher who has students here.)

Hi Mark, no he meant Barry Greene. I get EVERYTHING from him!!

[Jonah]

Misunderstanding in what way?

Can you show us where we are going wrong with a playing example?

I did not say anyone's goining wrong...

misunderstanding of the term i mean.. some people mean one thing some another by the same word... it depends on hearing also..
When I heard more in functional way I really heard modal changes as very stable - chords change but no movements at all... lately I began to hear it..


What I meant that speaking of jazz is often very simple in that way .. don't sit on a chord.. move ... so people try to move chords... but does music also move ...

[destinytot]

I've explained how modal organization can work many times and how you get from Lydian to Lydian#9 from 6th degree of Harmonic Minor or Lydian #9#5 from Harmonic Maj.... using modal interchange to create a different type of harmonic motion. It's not random.

I'm intrigued by this idea - and I'm definitely going to read up on it.