Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

[targuit]

Graham - your tone surprises me - I would expect that from a lesser player than you. All I'm asking is for you to articulate in a musical form on paper or in this case online in the thread what particular insights into chords and harmony you have 'discovered' as a result of your diligent research. NOT commanding anything. If your new found insights are that impressive, I would expect that you would be anxious to put them into a musically intelligible form. Apparently I am wrong.

Navdeep - you are fond of analyzing music and categorizing your learning. Fine for you. But I am not 'disrespecting' Alan's work. All I am suggesting is that somehow some musicians have achieved levels of skill and sophistication that miraculously do not derive from Barry Harris' theories, which I am NOT critiquing. I thought you would find Martin's approach interesting if not [systematic] enough for you.

Pardonne moi.

[mr. beaumont]

Did we ever define "chordal movement?"

[Reg]

Yes... but I'm not sure many understand.

[grahambop]

Graham - your tone surprises me - I would expect that from a lesser player than you. All I'm asking is for you to articulate in a musical form on paper or in this case online in the thread what particular insights into chords and harmony you have 'discovered' as a result of your diligent research. NOT commanding anything. If your new found insights are that impressive, I would expect that you would be anxious to put them into a musically intelligible form. Apparently I am wrong.

Navdeep - you are fond of analyzing music and categorizing your learning. Fine for you. But I am not 'disrespecting' Alan's work. All I am suggesting is that somehow some musicians have achieved levels of skill and sophistication that miraculously do not derive from Barry Harris' theories, which I am NOT critiquing. I thought you would find Martin's approach interesting if not OCD enough for you.

Pardon moi.

'Dulcet tones' conveyed an element of sarcasm to me. If it wasn't intended, then ok, I'll think about it.

Anyway far too busy over the next few days. Christmas festivities season is underway.

[targuit]

Graham - "Dulcet tones" is my English major side of me expressing itself. I love the color tones. Sarcasm per se was not the point or the intention. I was implying that something more concrete about the harmony expressed in classic musical language as in "Cm7b5" communicates more than vague comments hinting at heretofore uncharted musical delights. (See what I mean about my "English major" side? Perhaps I'm regressing. In which case I surely hope to reclaim more of my hair.)

I posted the interview with Martin Taylor because I think he is very down to earth and honest. Not to mention that I agree with his opinions. I am aware that it was off topic, but I thought his approach was relevant. After all, he only hung with wannabe musicians like Stefan Grappelli....but feel free to ignore the counsel of someone at the pinnacle. Martin, not me...

[mr. beaumont]

Yes... but I'm not sure many understand.

It doesn'the seem like we'really talking about it.

[destinytot]

Surely the best book for creating chord movement is... any book containing standards. Not for the chord symbols, but for the melodies. (Better still to write one's own lead sheets of standards - and 'own' your repertoire.)

Personally, I believe in playing 'jazz' by ear - an educated ear - with books (and other resources) for reference. I think one's instrument should be the ultimate resource for testing out ideas/theory, though I think I've grown too used to doing so at a piano or keyboard instead of at my guitar. (It might have been better for me to have got into the habit of transferring ideas straight from the piano to the guitar, whereas I usually sing them at - and then away from - the piano before picking them out on the guitar later.)

A few months ago, however, I began using the guitar as a study tool after finding that it's only on the guitar that reading music is particularly hard for me. (What I can read well enough to tap out on the piano is impossible for me to read on guitar, for which I rely purely on the ear-hand connection - I need to practise, practise, practise... I'm looking forward to filling in gaps in a structured way thanks to Richie Zellon's on-line course.)

Anyway, I also realised that I was able to see connections between notes as I hear them and their role within specific chord shapes on the fretboard. And I started to really get what Bruce Forman says about the distinction between playing rhythm and playing lead being a false one (thank you, Cosmic Gumbo, for sharing this clip):

(On the subject of gratitude.... I've just seen this magnificent thread Reg's Thread... live at the speed of Jazz and started watching Reg's phenomenal YouTube videos. I'm extremely grateful for the presence here of such a master craftsman - sorry, Reg, but that's how I see it - and for his patient efforts to foster the transmission of skills and the connecting of dots. Please keep it coming.)

[mr. beaumont]

Ok, I must be stupid. Wasn't the OP talking about creating a sense of movement over several bars of "static" harmony?

[guitarplayer007]

Ok, I must be stupid. Wasn't the OP talking about creating a sense of movement over several bars of "static" harmony?

Yes and just more movement in general
Ken

[grahambop]

Yes and just more movement in general
Ken

Yes that's what I'm talking about too.

I have got some nice movements I can share with you on 'My Romance', but it may be a few days before I get any time. Doing it properly with the chord chart software and arranging it in a document takes time.

[targuit]

For those who wish to study a nice arrangement of My Romance by Joe Pass, I am linking a performance by William Ghezzi on classical guitar. Derived from Joe's performance of this song on classical guitar on his Unforgettable CD.

A beautiful arrangement with lots of "movement" and interesting chord colors. I hope this link is not misconstrued. I would call it a tribute to Joe Pass' mastery of the instrument and chops. Not to mention those qualities invested in William Ghezzi. Of course, you will have to use your ears, unless you want me to create a transcription of this song. But I'm a bit busy these days as well.

[mr. beaumont]

Yes and just more movement in general
Ken

Gee whiz, could you be less specific?

[destinytot]

Ok, I must be stupid. Wasn't the OP talking about creating a sense of movement over several bars of "static" harmony?

I thought this comment from the OP was very clear:

Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
I guess I'm really starting from the beginning so would like a foundation first on how to think about chord movement. for example if you were playing My Romance in Bb . It has 2 chords per measure so basically I'm looking for adding chords and subs as well and how to actually think about the different ways to approach it.

Don't the top notes of "chords and subs" make a melody?
EDIT: And don't any - or all - other moving voices also constitute melody? (I rather think they do.)

[mr. beaumont]

Right...but what is "movement?"

It seems there's a lot of folks talking past each other here because we haven't settled on a definition of it.

[destinytot]

Right...but what is "movement?"

It seems there's a lot of folks talking past each other here because we haven't settled on a definition of it.

I wouldn't want to define it for others, but I'm thinking of "movement" as "having life":
PRALINE. [...] Now that's what I call a dead parrot.
SHOPKEEPER. No, no it's stunned.
PRALINE. Look my lad, [...]. That parrot is definitely deceased. [...]
SHOPKEEPER. It's probably pining for the fjords. [...]
PRALINE. Look matey [...] this parrot [... is] bleeding demised.
SHOPKEEPER. It's not, it's pining.
PRALINE. It's not pining, it's passed on. This parrot is no more. It has ceased to be. It's expired and gone to meet its maker. This is a late parrot. It's a stiff. Bereft of life, it rests in peace. If you hadn't nailed it to the perch, it would be pushing up the daisies. It's rung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible. This is an ex-parrot.
SHOPKEEPER. Well, I'd better replace it then.

[mr. beaumont]

So that's one definition...

If you look at Reg's post a few pages back, he got into the nuts and bolts of what actually creates the sense of movement in music, or rather, which chords have that kinetic energy, if you will, and which are static.

But nobody probed that any further, so I'm assuming that's not what the OP was talking about?

[MarkRhodes]

Right...but what is "movement?"

It seems there's a lot of folks talking past each other here because we haven't settled on a definition of it.

Jeff, I think you're right. Perhaps a thread on 'what chordal movement means in jazz' is in order. (But I am not the person to start it, whereas you might be just the guy... ;o)

[mr. beaumont]

I could start it, but I couldn't contribute...I didn't think it was different in jazz, really...I thought it all went back to the stuff Reg is talking about.

Is maybe this topic "How do I make my comping interesting when I have a couple of bars of one chord?"

Or...

Should comping be "interesting?" What should it be?

Maybe we're getting at some big things here.

[destinytot]

So that's one definition...

If you look at Reg's post a few pages back, he got into the nuts and bolts of what actually creates the sense of movement in music, or rather, which chords have that kinetic energy, if you will, and which are static.

But nobody probed that any further, so I'm assuming that's not what the OP was talking about?

Did you mean this post, Mr B? Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

[NSJ]

Right...but what is "movement?"

It seems there's a lot of folks talking past each other here because we haven't settled on a definition of it.

My understanding is that the OP asked how to fill in chords when playing statically, (i.e., instead of playing a I chord for X amount of measures).

He noted his dissatisfaction with the Barry Harris system, which he apparently stated wasn't applied to songs. Numerous people corrected him and said it has been applied to songs by Barry, Alan Kingstone (and, I would add, by Roni Ben Hurr, another disciple of Barry's who also plays guitar).

The crux of the system is that the inversions and root of the I6 chord can be interspersed with the four (4) diminished chords built from the 3, 5 b7 and b9 of the V chord. These four diminished chords can also be thought of via the key center, as built on the the ii, IV, bvi and M7 of the key. Thereby, creating a protracted V-I cadence and vice versa (dominant to the tonic). Numerous places exist in the fingerboard in the various stringsets associated with the three (3) drop 2 and two (2) drop 3 open-voice configurations to create these dynamic movements that, quite frankly, sound better than just playing the same chord over and over again.

In classical music, the perfect cadence is IV-V-I, but in jazz, the ii is subbed for the IV, creating an imperfect cadence. But the ii and IV are generally interchangeable, both functioning as subdominants. Thus, in addition, among other subs, in Barry's system, the IV6 chord is often subbed for the ii7 chord. Etc.

That's the crux of if, from what I can gather.

I'm honestly not sure what Targuit is asking,honestly; he seems to be saying both he knows nothing of the BH system but yet claim people have got along fine without it (?).

I just told him he should probably study it more extensively. That is all.

[docbop]

Right...but what is "movement?"

It seems there's a lot of folks talking past each other here because we haven't settled on a definition of it.

I try to look at thing simply so Jazz players are all about movement: adding it if not there like in a static or one chord over a couple bars. Then movement between chords and that being done in a musical manner.

Not just chords melodies and lines need to move to create interest, especially with guitar that sustain and manipulate a note like a wind or bowed instrument.

In a recent tutor or talk can remember I think it was with Sid Jacobs it was said that chords really should be thought of like a chorale with multiple voice moving together, the voice leading comes from the melodies each voice plays.

That's how i see it at this point in time Star Date.....

[NSJ]

Jeff, I think you're right. Perhaps a thread on 'what chordal movement means in jazz' is in order. (But I am not the person to start it, whereas you might be just the guy... ;o)

I get why BH was mentioned. The diminished chord is nothing else than a chord of movement. It want's to move, it sounds unsettled. You don't honk on it, you move from to and from it.


There are only three types of chords, major-minor and dominant. The diminished chord is part of the dominant family. Like the dominant that wants to resolve, the diminished wants to MOVE MOVE MOVE.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Right...but what is "movement?"

It seems there's a lot of folks talking past each other here because we haven't settled on a definition of it.

To be fair, if you know the answer, you probably don't need to ask question in the first place. " What to play over static chords" might be close. but the answer to that is really pretty broad . You can talk about actual harmonic movement , lead lines over static chords, subs, CESH.....

Also, deciding just WHAT justifies actual harmonic movement is relative, and it's pretty broad in a jazz context.

Some folks would see 1625 as being pretty static. That's the original Mickey Baker major 7, major 6, minor 7, minor 6. If it was me asking that question 15 years ago, that may have constituted some real movement. But even in that case, you can talk about it being harmony or just voices moving which imply harmony etc.

edit: sheesh..... a lot of posts in between..... None of those responses factored in.....

[55bar]

There is a segment on the Lage Lund DVD all about chord movement using "All the things you are" he goes very deep into it and provides some excellent exercises I HIGHLY recommend it if you are looking at escaping from standard Block chords and creating a more linear movement.

[guitarplayer007]

Gee whiz, could you be less specific?

Hmmmm ever watch Jack Wilkins play,never stops moving though chords