Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

[targuit]

How the hell would you know, Reg, how much theory I understand?

Would you say that to Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Erroll Garner? Does not pass the laugh test. Are you actually trying to imply that someone who can play a rhythm comp flawlessly in terms of passing chords, m6ths, diminished chords....is just "lucky"? How arrogant, especially from someone whose command of the English language is "colorful" to put it mildly.

Here is a link to one definition of "voice leading".
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...vkgwIuWTVvBomA

Btw, Reg - I really enjoy your playing. But the playing is what counts. Ask Joe Pass, Wes, Errroll...... And I'm not trying to get into a flame war. I'm simply pointing out that if the music sounds right, the theory is likely correct. Because if one is just randomly playing notes like a couple of thirteen year olds at GC on a Sat. afternoon, it just won't sound good, no matter how "lucky" you are.

[vintagelove]

Just a question to the group. In the context of voice leading and learning to use m6 and diminished chords as transitional in twentieth century jazz functional harmony, how much do you as performer consider it important to hew to the composer's original intent. In other words, there are many ways to imprint a 'signature' on your interpretation. Wes, for example, was often thought to develop the chord progression and melody in a stepwise fashion - single note, octaves, to fuller chords. Or he infused a strong blues or rhythmic feel to the song. But he was nearly always true to the melody. Or is that last statement shaky?

I was reviewing my recording efforts or at least a portion that is still on my digital Korg D1200 recorder with the intention to "prune" to free up space. I noted that my recordings whether solo or multi-track do tend to convey the song as written for the most part. I've been rightly critiqued for wondering off and being too expansive on lead phrases, but the chord progression is the composer's intent usually. I'm more inclined to vary the feel rhythmically.

What do you do and how important is the original composer's concept in your interpretation?

i thought one of the hallmarks of a good jazz player is being creative with the changes...

The more "set in stone" stuff on a lead sheet (Gb9b13 here, then make sure you play xxx here) the further away you get from the original MUSICIANS intent. Which was to spice up these forms/tunes, and be creative. Much of the magic happens because of these little moments where the stars (notes being played by different players) align.

Otherwise, isn't it just playing classical music???

[targuit]

Vintage - "i thought one of the hallmarks of a good jazz player is being creative with the changes..."

Please give me one or two concrete (musical links) examples.

Listen, we have all heard "deconstructed" versions of standards. Nothing new. But, my argument was that if you play a standard with the proper harmonies as composed by the composer, that should suffice to suggest a command of the jazz idiom. At least the "assimilation" stage of the 'imitate, assimilate, create ' paradigm of musical development. If what you play sounds like the record, in simple words, that indicates that you know what you are doing musically and perhaps theoretically.

Btw, my version of music theory is along the lines of Stuart Smith's pdf online of Jazz Theory. Sorry if that is inadequate for your standard. At least it is not some mumbo jumbo version of calculus or bluff.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...09332125,d.cWw

[docbop]

yes I believe most on this forum don't really understand music theory.

Which music theory? There is traditional theory that college teach that covers hundreds of years of music and goes in to great depth labeling, analyzing, cataloging mainly classical music. Then there is for convenience sake call it Jazz theory. Jazz isn't even a hundred years old first recording was 1917, it started with self taught musicians and for most part was that way into the 40's. Then Jazz as a formalized study started forming. So two drastically different schools of theory.

I think the purpose of both is different traditional theory is more about formalizing approaches to arranging, composition, and orchestration. That is kind of the purpose of schools to document history in a way it can be taught. I remember when I started studying Jazz theory the teachers said it is not traditional theory and it focus was on being practical view to use for playing now. The music we studied only went back a few decades. But in later classes it was taught that all the stuff we learned modern terminology for there were traditional equivalents. So could say Jazz Theory cherry-picked Traditional theory as needed. That cherry picking is what I believe leads to head butting when people from different back ground view Jazz. People with a highly defined set of terms and analysis tools talking with people using more practical view of music with terms that vary from region to region. So to the traditional theory type the Jazz theory types don't know enough in general.

Now for my additional off the wall view.... From working in the computer industry in the early days kind of the same types of complaints went on years later. I was one of those basically self-taught computer programmers, I took some college classes via extension schools, but most my learning was from sitting behind a keyboard and writing tons and tons of code experimenting similar to Jazz musicians in the woodshed. I got my foot in the door and worked and studied and did well. That way a common scenario for early days of computers in the 80's and the boom. But around late 90's you now have a lot of people that spent their four to six years in college getting a BA or MA in computer science. They start getting jobs in the computer industry, but they are surrounded by people like me with no degree who are their peers and managers. Also companies were still hiring non-degree people if they had a skill needed. The complains were very similar to the music theory complaints the non-degree people don't have the vast formalized schooling we have, we know more. The non degree people were hey we actually understand the way things work in the real world they you don't understand yet. Believe me from doing developer support I saw that all the time, guys with six-year degrees who's code was theoretically perfect, but in real world application broke all the time. So I see some of that in these arguments people who spend the years studying traditional theory getting frustrated with people with Jazz school or street theory views and terminology.

Sorry really tried to keep it short.

Bottom line as Sly put it... Different strokes for different folks, we can learn from each other.

[targuit]

I have a feeling this will come to no good end, as it will be misinterpreted. '

Reg, love your playing, less your theorizing. But I appreciate that you want to elucidate jazz theory for the unwashed. All good. But respect other players as well.

So, theorize away at why m6 chords are somehow the key to the Kingdom. I do play them, like them, and understand them. Not to mention diminished chords. The addition of an eighth note to a scale does not a revolution make. After all, there are only twelve notes in the chromatic scale to begin with.....

[grahambop]

Vintage - "i thought one of the hallmarks of a good jazz player is being creative with the changes..."

Please give me one or two concrete (musical links) examples.

Listen, we have all heard "deconstructed" versions of standards. Nothing new. But, my argument was that if you play a standard with the proper harmonies as composed by the composer, that should suffice to suggest a command of the jazz idiom. At least the "assimilation" stage of the 'imitate, assimilate, create ' paradigm of musical development. If what you play sounds like the record, in simple words, that indicates that you know what you are doing musically and perhaps theoretically.

Btw, my version of music theory is along the lines of Stuart Smith's pdf online of Jazz Theory. Sorry if that is inadequate for your standard. At least it is not some mumbo jumbo version of calculus or bluff.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...09332125,d.cWw

Wes Montgomery's versions of Summertime usually contain a neat descending set of minor changes from bar 5 onwards. Same as he used in Four on Six. Didn't wreck the tune too much.

[grahambop]

I have a feeling this will come to no good end, as it will be misinterpreted. '

Reg, love your playing, less your theorizing. But I appreciate that you want to elucidate jazz theory for the unwashed. All good. But respect other players as well.

So, theorize away at why m6 chords are somehow the key to the Kingdom. I do play them, like them, and understand them. Not to mention diminished chords. The addition of an eighth note to a scale does not a revolution make. After all, there are only twelve notes in the chromatic scale to begin with.....

Actually the major 6th chord is just as important in the Barry Harris system, since it can be used to cover both major and minor sounds.

There is a good reason why he uses an 8 note scale.

[targuit]

Wes Montgomery's versions of Summertime usually contain a neat descending set of minor changes from bar 5 onwards. Same as he used in Four on Six. Didn't wreck the tune too much.

Graham - you continue to refer to a Wes Montgomery version of Summertime. Could you link a performance or audio of some sort? It seems you and Reg had an entire discussion on the changes of some version to which I did not see a link. Apparently on another psychic plane.....



Edit - I'll go look myself... is it this one? Summertime is a blues form after all. Listening to the solo now. Nice, bluesy. Moving into octaves....I would say that with Transcribe one could transcribe this solo easily. But, it is still bluesy. I don't hear much in terms of radical harmonization. But excellent, of course.

[vintagelove]

Vintage - "i thought one of the hallmarks of a good jazz player is being creative with the changes..."

Please give me one or two concrete (musical links) examples.

Listen, we have all heard "deconstructed" versions of standards. Nothing new. But, my argument was that if you play a standard with the proper harmonies as composed by the composer, that should suffice to suggest a command of the jazz idiom. At least the "assimilation" stage of the 'imitate, assimilate, create ' paradigm of musical development. If what you play sounds like the record, in simple words, that indicates that you know what you are doing musically and perhaps theoretically.

Btw, my version of music theory is along the lines of Stuart Smith's pdf online of Jazz Theory. Sorry if that is inadequate for your standard. At least it is not some mumbo jumbo version of calculus or bluff.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...09332125,d.cWw

Sure, Wes does a live version of I've grown accustomed to her face. The melody starts with a pickup, do re me .... so.

Instead of just a V chord he plays A11, C#dim, A13... Dmaj7

It is all just a V chord, but better.




What great jazz player just played the chords written on the page?

[grahambop]

Actually the major 6th chord is just as important in the Barry Harris system, since it can be used to cover both major and minor sounds.

There is a good reason why he uses an 8 note scale.

Got to say, I've been getting a lot of enjoyment this week out of Alan Kingstone's book. As the OP kept mentioning My Romance as a tune to apply it to, I have been messing about with just the first 4 bars. I found it fun and creative to see how many different chord movements I could get just in those 4 bars.

It was instructive to discover that the dominant chord in bar 3 is where the most options seem to arise. Cool stuff.

[docbop]

Got to say, I've been getting a lot of enjoyment this week out of Alan Kingstone's book. As the OP kept mentioning My Romance as a tune to apply it to, I have been messing about with just the first 4 bars. I found it fun and creative to see how many different chord movements I could get just in those 4 bars.

It was instructive to discover that the dominant chord in bar 3 is where the most options seem to arise. Cool stuff.

Since getting a grip on the BH harmony same thing except with Body and Soul a whole possibilities on first 4 bars alone. I've had my rock guitar buddy say I play like a piano player wait till he hear me now. <grin>

[targuit]

What key are you playing the tune in, Graham? In the key of A, I usually play Amaj7 -Bm7 - C#m7 - Cdim7 - Bm7 - E7alt- Amaj7...To what "dominant chord in the third measure" are you referring?

[grahambop]

Graham - you continue to refer to a Wes Montgomery version of Summertime. Could you link a performance or audio of some sort? It seems you and Reg had an entire discussion on the changes of some version to which I did not see a link. Apparently on another psychic plane.....



Edit - I'll go look myself... is it this one? Summertime is a blues form after all. Listening to the solo now. Nice, bluesy. Moving into octaves....I would say that with Transcribe one could transcribe this solo easily. But, it is still bluesy. I don't hear much in terms of radical harmonization. But excellent, of course.

No I was talking about Live at Jorgies which is not online anywhere I can find it. But this version has the same changes. From bar 5 it descends, like Four on Six. In fact the bassist is almost playing the Four on Six riff under it all. The changes I'm talking about are from bar 5: Cm F7, Bbm Eb7, Am D7, Ebm Ab7b5. Standard Wes changes for this tune. I suspect he always played it this way. Can't you hear those changes? They are not Gershwin's original changes.

[grahambop]

What key are you playing the tune in, Graham? In the key of A, I usually play Amaj7 -Bm7 - C#m7 - Cdim7 - Bm7 - E7alt- Amaj7...To what "dominant chord in the third measure" are you referring?

Key of Bb.

/ Bb Cm7 / Dm7 Dbdim / Cm7 F7 / Bb.

Lots of fun on the Cm to F7 change in bar 3.

[grahambop]

Since getting a grip on the BH harmony same thing except with Body and Soul a whole possibilities on first 4 bars alone. I've had my rock guitar buddy say I play like a piano player wait till he hear me now. <grin>

Ha ha Doc now you've got me itching to have a crack at Body'n'soul too!

[grahambop]

What key are you playing the tune in, Graham? In the key of A, I usually play Amaj7 -Bm7 - C#m7 - Cdim7 - Bm7 - E7alt- Amaj7...To what "dominant chord in the third measure" are you referring?

Well you've got it right there. E7 alt in yours.

It's the 'alt' that makes it interesting. Plain E7 you go one way, or put in the 'alt' and you can go down a whole different route (or routes!)

[targuit]

"Can't you hear those changes? They are not Gershwin's original changes." Well, given that there was no extant link to an actual recording until I put one up here, no - I have not yet listened to the bar and the phrase you are citing. But Wes often had a penchant for that type of thing. Perhaps they are not the original changes, just as the changes in Georgia On My Mind have likely been altered. I'm thinking of the part of the chorus where it goes in F. F - Georgia - Em7b5 - Georg- A7alt - ia, - .... Liberties are often taken. Not earthshattering for sure.

[grahambop]

"Can't you hear those changes? They are not Gershwin's original changes." Well, given that there was no extant link to an actual recording until I put one up here, no - I have not yet listened to the bar and the phrase you are citing. But Wes often had a penchant for that type of thing. Perhaps they are not the original changes, just as the changes in Georgia On My Mind have likely been altered. I'm thinking of the part of the chorus where it goes in F. F - Georgia - Em7b5 - Georg- A7alt - ia, - .... Liberties are often taken. Not earthshattering for sure.

I was also referring to your version and link which you said you'd listened to, it's the same changes.

Anyway, apologies, didn't realise we are supposed to be looking for 'earth-shattering' changes to original chord sequences!

[NSJ]

I like the following Barry Harris sub for a standard turnaround (eg, Am7-D7-GM9-G6)

C6-D7-D6-G6

Very elegant. Follows the subdominant-dominant - tonic movement, lots of inversion possibilities with 3 separate 6th chords that follow the functional harmony.

[grahambop]

I've been exploring the possibilities on a ii-V-I turnaround, e.g. take My Romance in Bb. Bars 3 and 4 would be something like:

/ Cm F7 / Bb /

So (using a ballad tempo, allowing me to fit in 1 chord per beat), I've been playing 2 chords ascending on the Cm, chosen from an appropriate Barry H. scale, then 2 chords descending on the F7, from another appropriate Barry H. scale. (Or 2 descending + 2 descending, or 2 descending + 2 ascending, or 2 ascending + 2 ascending). At the point you start the 'F7' segment, if you choose a chord as near as possible to the same fret and string set as the chord you just came out of in the 'Cm' segment, you get some really nice voice-leading sounds.

Using mainly the drop 2 chord shapes given near the beginning of Alan Kingstone's book, sometimes I try the chords on the middle 4 strings, or I stick to the top 4 strings, or I'll start in one string set and cross over to the other.

So on the Cm I have been using 2 chords from the following groups: Cmin6, Ebmaj6.

On the F7 I have been using 2 chords from the following groups: Cmin6, Ebmaj6.
Or to get the F7 'altered dominant' sound: Gbmin6, Amaj6.

Sometimes for the F7 I just use one of the appropriate diminished chords e.g. Cdim (to get that F7b9 sound).

Then resolve into the nearest suitable Bb chord for bar 4.

By the time you've explored all the options going up, down, crossing from one string set to another (or not), switching from one BH scale to another, etc, you can get so many possibilities just out of one or two bars that it's fascinating.

All this is just from the first 2 or 3 chapters, still got the rest of Alan's book to explore yet!

[NSJ]

I've been exploring the possibilities on a ii-V-I turnaround, e.g. take My Romance in Bb. Bars 3 and 4 would be something like:

/ Cm F7 / Bb /

So (using a ballad tempo, allowing me to fit in 1 chord per beat), I've been playing 2 chords ascending on the Cm, chosen from an appropriate Barry H. scale, then 2 chords descending on the F7, from another appropriate Barry H. scale. (Or 2 descending + 2 descending, or 2 descending + 2 ascending, or 2 ascending + 2 ascending). At the point you start the 'F7' segment, if you choose a chord as near as possible to the same fret and string set as the chord you just came out of in the 'Cm' segment, you get some really nice voice-leading sounds.

Using mainly the drop 2 chord shapes given near the beginning of Alan Kingstone's book, sometimes I try the chords on the middle 4 strings, or I stick to the top 4 strings, or I'll start in one string set and cross over to the other.

So on the Cm I have been using 2 chords from the following groups: Cmin6, Ebmaj6.

On the F7 I have been using 2 chords from the following groups: Cmin6, Ebmaj6.
Or to get the F7 'altered dominant' sound: Gbmin6, Amaj6.

Sometimes for the F7 I just use one of the appropriate diminished chords e.g. Cdim (to get that F7b9 sound).

Then resolve into the nearest suitable Bb chord for bar 4.

By the time you've explored all the options going up, down, crossing from one string set to another (or not), switching from one BH scale to another, etc, you can get so many possibilities just out of one or two bars that it's fascinating.

All this is just from the first 2 or 3 chapters, still got the rest of Alan's book to explore yet!

Yes, the crossing over from stringset to stringset was a huge technical concept in the Ben Hurr materials.

It is particularly useful when the harmonic motion is slow, giving one a sense of motion and movement even when the situation is otherwise static, even when you are sitting on one chord for a while .

I am definitely going to pick up Alan's book and then A-B it with Roni"s stuff.

I just love how one can go from a IV6 to a IVdim and essentially cover the subdominant-dominant movement so readily.

[targuit]

Give us an example of the chords you use specifically with the first verse and the first sixteen bars or so just as in:
My ro- / Bbmaj7 - mance, Cm7 doesn't/ have Dm7 to Dbdim7 have a/ moon Cm7 - F7 in the / Bbmaj7 sky ....
Just so we can see what dulcet tones you are conjuring up with the eight note scales you derive.

Perhaps I'm unschooled in the black arts, as would posit Reg, but I have only found so many ways to alter the chords with ninths, elevenths, flats, sharps, alt....etc. Of course, if you have discovered some new way to harmonize other than the traditional functional manner, I am 'all ears', as the saying goes. I presume the task I request is not extraordinary. Please no odd diagrams purporting to express an odd chord in the fashion of the tab oriented typists.

EDIT: I was searching YT for a Martin Taylor interview and found this great interview - I have listened only to the first half, but I would like to link it here for specific reasons. First, because Martin is a brilliant teacher in my opinion as well as a fabulously talented player. Second, because I think it is something every aspiring guitarist should hear in terms of how Martin thinks and hears music. In all modesty, I can point out that he and I at least share our views of how we experience making music. In a recent thread, I had espoused the point that I simply think about the bass line or root of the chords and hear the melody in my head or even just intermittent "target tones" in the phrase, allowing my "subconscious" to fill in the harmony including tone colors. Martin essentially endorses that point of view as his process as well, though I have not heard him speak specifically of the subconscious filling in the harmony. But I have not heard the entire interview.

This is not intended to derail the forum topic. It is, however, a response from a world class player that is essentially about hearing the music and creating it by ear. It is a fabulous interview (and I have only heard half to this point), and I hope you will appreciate the spirit in which I link it as well as Martin's genius.

[targuit]

Just a comment on the interview I linked above. I just listened to the entire interview, which could have benefited from some judicious editing. However, the first half especially is relevant to the modus operandi of a world class player.
The purpose of interposing this interview here was to understand how one can educate one's ears to hear the music and play what you hear. Not to dissuade anyone from studying theory, of course. But to illuminate the basic thinking of a mature jazz player who does not rely on theory per se, but rather on the cumulative experience of years of playing and training.

Now back to My Romance. Eagerly awaiting your comment and novel harmonic discoveries, Graham and NSJ.

[grahambop]

Give us an example of the chords you use specifically with the first verse and the first sixteen bars or so just as in:
My ro- / Bbmaj7 - mance, Cm7 doesn't/ have Dm7 to Dbdim7 have a/ moon Cm7 - F7 in the / Bbmaj7 sky ....
Just so we can see what dulcet tones you are conjuring up with the eight note scales you derive.

Perhaps I'm unschooled in the black arts, as would posit Reg, but I have only found so many ways to alter the chords with ninths, elevenths, flats, sharps, alt....etc. Of course, if you have discovered some new way to harmonize other than the traditional functional manner, I am 'all ears', as the saying goes. I presume the task I request is not extraordinary. Please no odd diagrams purporting to express an odd chord in the fashion of the tab oriented typists.

No, strangely I don't feel like doing it at your "dulcet" command!

If I eventually post some examples, it will be to help the OP who asked for them.

If you want to know what it sounds like, go back and listen again to Alan Kingstone's video lesson which he posted earlier in this thread. I am getting broadly similar sounds to that.

It's basically just an easier method of creating some chord movement, and also some nice voice leading. An advantage of the BH system is that there are fewer different chord varieties/shapes to learn. It's nothing that will frighten the horses. No harmonies you haven't heard before, at least the way I'm using it.

There are some more advanced options, but I haven't got that far yet.

Merry Christmas.

[NSJ]

Just a comment on the interview I linked above. I just listened to the entire interview, which could have benefited from some judicious editing. However, the first half especially is relevant to the modus operandi of a world class player.
The purpose of interposing this interview here was to understand how one can educate one's ears to hear the music and play what you hear. Not to dissuade anyone from studying theory, of course. But to illuminate the basic thinking of a mature jazz player who does not rely on theory per se, but rather on the cumulative experience of years of playing and training.

Now back to My Romance. Eagerly awaiting your comment and novel harmonic discoveries, Graham and NSJ.

Honestly, it seems you're at the point where you should go out and buy, absorb and read either Alan's book or Barry's various materials, of which there are plentiful, in DVD form (hours and hours worth).
Little comments here and there do a grave disservice to Barry and his work, which took a lifetime of achievement. It cannot be simply reduced to a sound bite or a truncated Cliff Notes Version.

Despite that, plenty of information has been conveyed in this thread on the basic contours And aspects. Perhaps it is time to study it thoroughly, with the depth and thoroughness that it deserves, if you want to know more about it .