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  1. #501
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87
    How do you do that? Listen, listen, and listen to the recordings of the style you want to play. Listen to the bass movement and the chord movement. Also, listen to where the harmonic player (?) places those hits. Reg and I had a conversation not too far back about how rhythm and pulse contribute to what is played on which beat of the harmonic phrase.
    Hi Alex! I'd like to read that. Where can I find the conversation, please?
    Last edited by destinytot; 12-19-2015 at 01:08 PM. Reason: typo

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Any tune can be performed in almost any tempo and style, different styles imply different harmonic approaches for creating chord movement. And different tempos also imply how many chords or movement you can use.

    Take standards and play the related II- and in sub dominant function of every chord. Yes it requires you to make quick analysis... choices of what each chord is to be able to sub the related II-.

    Every chord becomes a tonal target with reference to the entire tune. Maybe start with... just approach every chord with related V7 chord... there are also choices of which V7 chord, again with tonal target chord and in relationship to tune.

    It's just a way of practicing performance, live performance with possibilities.
    Hey, Reg. I did a cursory search and didn't find anything from you on Stella, this month's practical standard. Pretty tough tune for me personally, being that the "basic" changes are pretty busy. Have you done a video incorporating any of that tune?https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/jazzg...ds-poll-2.html
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-19-2015 at 01:02 PM.

  4. #503

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    I think this might help you. There are a series of 6 books from Robin Nolan. With just one you'll see his easy approach to making heavy use of the low E string in regards to chords and chord movement. No theory or 'method' involved. It's pricey but it's worth it just to see the chord diagrams.

    Robin Nolan Gypsy Jazz Songbook and Play Along CD Volume 1 - DjangoBooks.com

  5. #504

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    Hey, Steve!

    Good suggestion re Robin Nolan. I had the luck to meet him in Amsterdam back in the 1996 when I stumbled upon his group playing outdoors one lovely summer's evening. I got to hang briefly with the band and friends in a cafe after their performance, though I did not speak much with Robin as he was rather quiet at the other end of a long table. In any case, he was a great guitarist back then, and he was likely in his twenties. He has a video or two with Martin Taylor as a duet on YT. I still have his band's card from that day.

    Anyway, I will have to take a look a that Gypsy Jazz Songbook. Sounds cool.

  6. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    Ken.

    Try lesson 15, Monk Moves.

    This is not the Sixth Diminished stuff.

    A


    Also lesson 14 talks about Sisters & Brothers to create II / V / I moves. Start with Intro Video.


    So I'm looking in the book and page 23 and 24 have the same exact diagrams?

    Also referring to those same diagrams on page 23 and 24...are those 3 chords in each diagram representing 2-5-1?
    they are written as V6-vo-16 So if they do refer to 2-5-1 how are we getting more movement if it still 3 chords?
    I must just not see it.
    thx
    Ken

  7. #506

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    So I'm looking in the book and page 23 and 24 have the same exact diagrams?

    Also referring to those same diagrams on page 23 and 24...are those 3 chords in each diagram representing 2-5-1?
    they are written as V6-vo-16 So if they do refer to 2-5-1 how are we getting more movement if it still 3 chords?
    I must just not see it.
    thx
    Ken
    The C6 chord creates an F maj9 sound when played in the key of F (see page 21). It moves easily to the F6 chord. The Cdim just makes a nice smooth-sounding transition in between them (because 2 of the voices move down in half steps). So if you had a bar with just one F chord in it, you could use these 3 chords to replace it and create more movement (3 chords instead of one - that's where the movement comes from).

    So a solitary F chord could be played instead as C6, Cdim, F6. It basically says that on page 22.

    The eight variants given are just different inversions of this movement, i.e. on 4 different roots and 2 different string sets, to give you lots of options where to use this move. By transposing these shapes as necessary, you could use this movement on any major chord in any key anywhere you like.
    Last edited by grahambop; 12-19-2015 at 07:14 PM.

  8. #507

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    The C6 chord creates an F maj9 sound when played in the key of F (see page 21). It moves easily to the F6 chord. The Cdim just makes a nice smooth-sounding transition in between them (because 2 of the voices move down in half steps). So if you had a bar with just one F chord in it, you could use these 3 chords to replace it and create more movement (3 chords instead of one - that's where the movement comes from).

    So a solitary F chord could be played instead as C6, Cdim, F6. It basically says that on page 22.

    The eight variants given are just different inversions of this movement, i.e. on 4 different roots and 2 different string sets, to give you lots of options where to use this move. By transposing these shapes as necessary, you could use this movement on any major chord in any key anywhere you like.
    Page 25 has the same diagrams because it is basically the same thing, but now applied to a minor chord. Because F6 has the same notes as D min7, you can also use the C6, Cdim, F6 move to replace a D minor chord. (the C6 chord still makes a reasonable 'fit' in D min because it contains the 5th, min7th, 9th, 11th of D minor).

    So now you can use the same movement twice as much, i.e. to replace a minor chord as well as a major chord.

    I assume you're talking about Alan Kingstone's book by the way, perhaps the page numbers are slightly different in my edition. But I think the above stuff is what you are referring to.

  9. #508

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Hey, Steve!

    Good suggestion re Robin Nolan. I had the luck to meet him in Amsterdam back in the 1996 when I stumbled upon his group playing outdoors one lovely summer's evening. I got to hang briefly with the band and friends in a cafe after their performance, though I did not speak much with Robin as he was rather quiet at the other end of a long table. In any case, he was a great guitarist back then, and he was likely in his twenties. He has a video or two with Martin Taylor as a duet on YT. I still have his band's card from that day.

    Anyway, I will have to take a look a that Gypsy Jazz Songbook. Sounds cool.
    The way he voices chords there might be the 5th of the chord on the low E string, down a half step and it will be b9th of the chord, then the root on the next chord. Just look at the chord diagrams. It creates a nice effect with the heavy use of the low E string.
    There's no theory or anything. You can work that out later.
    I think that's the kind of thing the OP might be looking for.

  10. #509

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    So I'm looking in the book and page 23 and 24 have the same exact diagrams?

    Also referring to those same diagrams on page 23 and 24...are those 3 chords in each diagram representing 2-5-1?
    they are written as V6-vo-16 So if they do refer to 2-5-1 how are we getting more movement if it still 3 chords?
    I must just not see it.
    thx
    Ken

    For page 23, read page 21.

    Not II/V/I.

    As a ONE FUNCTION.

    Page 24 looks nothing like page 23.

    Page 25 is exactly the same as page 23 as a TWO FUNCTION.

  11. #510

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    Another great chord sub

    " anytime you want to play a hip dominant seventh chord with a #5 and b9 (eg, B7#5b9), just play a minor sixth a half step above it (C-6)."

    it works perfectly.

  12. #511

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    Alternate RC using diminished chords

    I6--Idim--IV6--V6--Vdim--I6

  13. #512

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    PS-- does Alan's book cover the concept of "borrowed notes"? I E, borrowing notes from the dominant seventh "resolving" into the diminished, or borrowing notes from the diminished into the minor or major sixth chord? Yet another way of creating movement and tension.

  14. #513

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    [QUOTE=NSJ;596489]Another great chord sub

    " anytime you want to play a hip dominant seventh chord with a #5 and b9 (eg, B7#5b9), just play a minor sixth a half step above it (C-6)."

    This thinking is good for a quick fix I guess but it's very important to understand the chords function in the given moment.
    Where is the chord heading.

    Once you get that C-6 is an F9 without the root or an A-7b5 the world of chord movement opens up as you have voicings for all these chords too.

    You could be really hip and voice the chord voicing

    Eb G A D (bottom to top, Eb on D string 13 fret)

    Then look at what this chord can be.

    C-6/9
    B7 #9
    Am7b5
    F13
    D7susb9


    So when you think of this chord with.

    Eb being the b3 it's a C-6/9
    Eb/D# being the natural 3 of B7#9
    Eb being b5 of Am7b5
    Eb being the b7 of F13
    Eb being the b9 of D7susb9

    It becomes VERY VERY useful.

    The voicing I gave you also SCREAMS melodic minor you can finger the C melodic minor right under that scale.

    And guess what.

    It works PERFECTLY for all those chords.

    C melodic minor from Root of C-6/9
    C melodic min half step above B7 alt
    C melodic min minor third above Am7b5
    C melodic min from 5th of F13
    C melodic min from b7 D7susb9


    Work out different inversions of this chord in all string sets and employ it in turnarounds and cycles.

    It opens up melodic minor and chord subs and movement like you wouldn't believe.

    Do this with all the notes in the chord too so.

    When you want to use the voicing as a C-6/9
    the 9th is on the top

    so to make it say F-6/9

    Move the whole voicing so you have a G on the top.

    The rule is look at the FUNCTION of all the notes in the chord. Then use the chord in all its possibilities it becomes second nature to see this as an Altered dom or a -75b or a m6
    Last edited by 55bar; 12-20-2015 at 02:42 AM.

  15. #514

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Another great chord sub

    " anytime you want to play a hip dominant seventh chord with a #5 and b9 (eg, B7#5b9), just play a minor sixth a half step above it (C-6)."

    it works perfectly.

    Cmi6 is a rootless F9 chord so it's a tritone sub of B7 alt.

  16. #515

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Cmi6 is a rootless F9 chord so it's a tritone sub of B7 alt.
    You beat me to it.

  17. #516

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    You beat me to it.

    as my teacher like to say.... figure out the math of the song.

  18. #517

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    as my teacher like to say.... figure out the math of the song.
    Exactly

    Mine used to say "play better!"

  19. #518

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    One benefit of the Barry Harris system is that I can create a simple set of changes that enable me to find one simple way of getting through the tune


    People concoct very complex and elaborate arrangements, me, I just want to get through the song in an uncluttered way such that it's bulletproof in terms of internalization and gives me plenty of options on the fingerboard as well. Maybe ornamentations and elaborate chord subs and whatnot can come later, but first I want to write out an arrangement that's clear and Helps me get through the song in one simple way.
    Same here! There's a parallel (-at least in expression) with speed: if you can't play it slow, you can't play it fast; if you can't play it (-a tune) one way, you can't get play it several.

  20. #519

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Cmi6 is a rootless F9 chord so it's a tritone sub of B7 alt.
    I used to not know that. And even now sometimes I don't put the knowledge to use as often as I might. But I really like the minor 6 chord shape. (Lot of blues players use it as, say F9/C, or just use it for F7 and don't worry about the name or rationale for it.)

  21. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    The C6 chord creates an F maj9 sound when played in the key of F (see page 21). It moves easily to the F6 chord. The Cdim just makes a nice smooth-sounding transition in between them (because 2 of the voices move down in half steps). So if you had a bar with just one F chord in it, you could use these 3 chords to replace it and create more movement (3 chords instead of one - that's where the movement comes from).

    So a solitary F chord could be played instead as C6, Cdim, F6. It basically says that on page 22.

    The eight variants given are just different inversions of this movement, i.e. on 4 different roots and 2 different string sets, to give you lots of options where to use this move. By transposing these shapes as necessary, you could use this movement on any major chord in any key anywhere you like.

    So with any bar where you have a MAJ chord for 4 beats you can move those 3 shapes instead of playing static Fmaj?

  22. #521

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    So with any bar where you have a MAJ chord for 4 beats you can move those 3 shapes instead of playing static Fmaj?
    Is that the sound of a penny I just heard Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

  23. #522
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Alternate RC using diminished chords

    I6--Idim--IV6--V6--Vdim--I6
    RC - rhythm changes?

  24. #523

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    RC - rhythm changes?
    Yes In lieu of a 1-6-2-5-1 turnaround

  25. #524

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    So with any bar where you have a MAJ chord for 4 beats you can move those 3 shapes instead of playing static Fmaj?
    Yes that's it.

  26. #525

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I used to not know that. And even now sometimes I don't put the knowledge to use as often as I might. But I really like the minor 6 chord shape. (Lot of blues players use it as, say F9/C, or just use it for F7 and don't worry about the name or rationale for it.)
    Think of the chord shape commonly used. Cmi6 = Ami7b5 (inversion of Cmi6) = F9 (no root) a lot of chords have multiple names.

  27. #526

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    So with any bar where you have a MAJ chord for 4 beats you can move those 3 shapes instead of playing static Fmaj?
    Two things to keep in mind, Jazz players like movement so will add chords to create movement. Jazz players love dominant chords because they can do so much with them so when adding chords they will add dominants. Okay a third thing the sound of the b7 is strong so Jazz players will change minor 7 chords for dominant 7 chords especially when adding chords to create movement.

    As I say I like to keep things simple and those are some simple things that will explain a lot of stuff and get you a lot of mileage.

  28. #527

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    It's interesting to hear many of you not want to understand what your playing, make it simple etc... Why is that, is it a cover for not being able to play something, or excuse for mistakes. I mean you might as well play with out knowing any changes or names of chords, scales, arpeggios... it's all the same. Just use your ears... don't bother to learn tunes etc...



    Or maybe just play simple tunes... there really isn't anything wrong with that. World, Alternative, Blues, Reggae, Ska, pop, hip-hop... You can play standards in that style... use triads and classical style of harmony. Don't get past 7th chords and chord tones, call everything else embellishments... or sounds you just need to be able hear, not understand. I play lots of gig just like that.... but I don't call those jazz gigs, and I'm definitely not playing in a jazz style. I also play jazz gigs and don't bother to think etc...

    It's just... I've hosted Jazz Jams for years...lots of them, and it's fun to watch and listen to amateurs perform, some are really great one night, the next, they suck. I was usually good about giving cues so at least no one gets lost.... generally verbally and loud... most guitarist only come up for air once in a while.

    You don't need to understand everything and everyone's references, (although it helps and really does make you a much better musician), but you do at least need your personal understanding of the music. And if your just going to listen and copy different notes played by different musicians... memorize and plug and play those memorized notes... it's going to take years... a life time and generally most won't get there. There being.... able to play jazz tunes you don't already have memorized.

    Take a simple standard, I believe they used the tune in the Practical Standards Thread...In Your Own Sweet Way.

    You need at the very least, a basic understanding of the Form, the spatial thing. You can screw up all the changes, the melody... your solo, rhythm etc... but if you at least have the physical shape, the FORM.. the spatial thing together. You can perform any tune. So the tune is 32 bars with an interlude... skip the interlude, it's 32 bars.
    Those 32 bars are divided into four... eight bars sections....
    The 1st, 2nd and 4th eight bar sections are the same... call them "A's"
    The 3rd eight bar section is different........................... call that "B"
    So Form of the Tune is A A B A

    That will get you through the tune... but maybe you need some tonal targets... what notes and chords to use with reference to ONE note A Tonal target. The tunes key sig. says Bb there's a clue.

    So the simplest analysis would be... the final bar is Bbmaj7.... so everything is just motion or movement towards that tonal target... Bb.

    You might notice that old relative minor target note of "G" or G-7 is also going on.... the only tricky part is the ....
    Ab-7 Db7 / Gbmaj7 Cbmaj7 /.... other wise the rest of the eight bar section All relates to "Bb".

    You could just plug and play licks, memorized patters... whatever all with relationship to "Bb". Chanh a few notes, or use Bbmin pentatonic pattern for the 5th and 6th bars and just feel and use your ears through the "A" sections... that's all the melody does, it just used a few more chords.

    So you could see that the target of bars 5 and 6 ... Ab-7 Db7 etc... is Gbmaj7 or bVImaj7 of "Bb"... which is from using Parallel Minor of Bbmaj.... Bbmaj becomes Bbmin. through use of borrowing from classical tradition... or Modal Interchange from Jazz tradition....
    either way, Bbmin. Aeolian note pattern creates that chord pattern and Tonal Target of Gbmaj. as IV chord... like the IV chord of a Blues

    Or you could just play Eb pentatonic, Eb Gb Ab Bb Db think of it as a IV chord in a Blues... it is a sub-Dominant function... and if you want even use Willies pentatonic pairs... just approach the target chord of Gb... or each chord of the pattern... that might be just as complicated as actually understanding the harmony...

    Or the changes can easily fit into dominant cycle pattern... another method of trying to understand harmony. Another box or flavor.... it's all good, what ever works for you personally.

    Anyway... when you at least create tonal targets... you'll at least begin to hear and feel how motion works, chord motion. And if you at least have targets.... whether you want or not... harmonic organization will happen. That organization, whether planed or by chance will result in you at least sounding like you know what your playing. And in reality... you do, from using your your choices, ears, feel whatever you do... in an organized spatial Form.

    Hey Matt sure... I'll glady play through Stella... it's just another tune, that can be played in a number of style etc...I'll go through and verbally make analysis with use of tonal targets... which creates where and what to use as motion chords.

    There are no one answers... there are always possibilities...that's why most enjoy performing jazz.

  29. #528

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    PS-- does Alan's book cover the concept of "borrowed notes"? I E, borrowing notes from the dominant seventh "resolving" into the diminished, or borrowing notes from the diminished into the minor or major sixth chord? Yet another way of creating movement and tension.
    Yes there is a chapter about this.

  30. #529

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    So then the 6th on the 5th can function as either a ONE or a TWO? Is that correct Alan?

    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    For page 23, read page 21.

    Not II/V/I.

    As a ONE FUNCTION.

    Page 24 looks nothing like page 23.

    Page 25 is exactly the same as page 23 as a TWO FUNCTION.

  31. #530

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    Dan Haerle refers to this extremely versatile chord as a "Magic Voicing' http://www.danhaerle.com/magic%20voicings.pdf

    Barry Greene calls it the Magic Jazz Chord and did a great lesson on it - you can preview that on YouTube. Btw, in attition to the 5 functions you mentioned, that same fingering can also by EbMaj7#11 as well as G Aeolian and D Phrygian (VI & III in Bb)

    [QUOTE=55bar;596508]
    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Another great chord sub

    " anytime you want to play a hip dominant seventh chord with a #5 and b9 (eg, B7#5b9), just play a minor sixth a half step above it (C-6)."

    This thinking is good for a quick fix I guess but it's very important to understand the chords function in the given moment.
    Where is the chord heading.

    Once you get that C-6 is an F9 without the root or an A-7b5 the world of chord movement opens up as you have voicings for all these chords too.

    You could be really hip and voice the chord voicing

    Eb G A D (bottom to top, Eb on D string 13 fret)

    Then look at what this chord can be.

    C-6/9
    B7 #9
    Am7b5
    F13
    D7susb9


    So when you think of this chord with.

    Eb being the b3 it's a C-6/9
    Eb/D# being the natural 3 of B7#9
    Eb being b5 of Am7b5
    Eb being the b7 of F13
    Eb being the b9 of D7susb9

    It becomes VERY VERY useful.

    The voicing I gave you also SCREAMS melodic minor you can finger the C melodic minor right under that scale.

    And guess what.

    It works PERFECTLY for all those chords.

    C melodic minor from Root of C-6/9
    C melodic min half step above B7 alt
    C melodic min minor third above Am7b5
    C melodic min from 5th of F13
    C melodic min from b7 D7susb9


    Work out different inversions of this chord in all string sets and employ it in turnarounds and cycles.

    It opens up melodic minor and chord subs and movement like you wouldn't believe.

    Do this with all the notes in the chord too so.

    When you want to use the voicing as a C-6/9
    the 9th is on the top

    so to make it say F-6/9

    Move the whole voicing so you have a G on the top.

    The rule is look at the FUNCTION of all the notes in the chord. Then use the chord in all its possibilities it becomes second nature to see this as an Altered dom or a -75b or a m6

  32. #531

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanZ
    So then the 6th on the 5th can function as either a ONE or a TWO? Is that correct Alan?

    Yes Sean, correct.


    Navdeep, yes I cover Borrowing in both context you mention.

    Best

    Alan


  33. #532

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    [QUOTE=SeanZ;596675]Dan Haerle refers to this extremely versatile chord as a "Magic Voicing' http://www.danhaerle.com/magic%20voicings.pdf

    Barry Greene calls it the Magic Jazz Chord and did a great lesson on it - you can preview that on YouTube. Btw, in attition to the 5 functions you mentioned, that same fingering can also by EbMaj7#11 as well as G Aeolian and D Phrygian (VI & III in Bb)

    AWSOME thanks for this.

  34. #533

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    [QUOTE=SeanZ;596675]Dan Haerle refers to this extremely versatile chord as a "Magic Voicing' http://www.danhaerle.com/magic%20voicings.pdf

    Barry Greene calls it the Magic Jazz Chord and did a great lesson on it - you can preview that on YouTube. Btw, in attition to the 5 functions you mentioned, that same fingering can also by EbMaj7#11 as well as G Aeolian and D Phrygian (VI & III in Bb)

    Although the second voicing in the Dan Haerle article are pretty useless for my small hands. I prefer A Eb G D bottom to top. Like the Am7b5 chord on 12th fret with pinky stretching to the note D (11th)

    I bar the chord so I have my pinky and 2nd finger free for the Mel min lovlelyness.

  35. #534

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    [QUOTE=matt.guitarteacher;596696]
    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    Cannot follow who said what. Life is short. Moments are precious. You're already doing 99% of what's needed. Please read below:

    Thanks for explaining this, as you can see by all my other posts where I used quotes I do know how to do it.

    I think tapatalk which I use on my phone sometimes goes a bit funny.

    Sorry if this has caused you any inconvenience, it wasn't intentional.

  36. #535

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    Here we go... the magic chord.... now if you can just get a jazz box where the fingerings of that magic chord will light up on the fret board... talk about simple.

    Sorry... I just can't resist. This is the kind of stuff musicians make jokes about at gigs....really, I'm not joking. Guitar players are in some parallel universe.... anything but what it actually is.

    Yea Destiny I'll check out the posts... and make comments. I've only have a few more gigs and commitments for the rest of month... I'll really get into posting a bunch of examples... not sure about the magic chord... but I'll get into the difference between playing what's implied harmonically and playing neutral voicings that can work in multiple harmonic contexts.

    You ever have to solo over players that don't know how to comp harmonically... or bass players who only know how to solo and never imply.... you know the root of the chord. Whats even better are drummers who never play time, any kind of groove.... or maybe play or set up the downbeat.... I do... you end up supporting the player comping, implying the changes and keeping the groove together.... not that much fun.

  37. #536

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Here we go... the magic chord.... now if you can just get a jazz box where the fingerings of that magic chord will light up on the fret board... talk about simple.

    Sorry... I just can't resist. This is the kind of stuff musicians make jokes about at gigs....really, I'm not joking. Guitar players are in some parallel universe.... anything but what it actually is.

    Yea Destiny I'll check out the posts... and make comments. I've only have a few more gigs and commitments for the rest of month... I'll really get into posting a bunch of examples... not sure about the magic chord... but I'll get into the difference between playing what's implied harmonically and playing neutral voicings that can work in multiple harmonic contexts.

    You ever have to solo over players that don't know how to comp harmonically... or bass players who only know how to solo and never imply.... you know the root of the chord. Whats even better are drummers who never play time, any kind of groove.... or maybe play or set up the downbeat.... I do... you end up supporting the player comping, implying the changes and keeping the groove together.... not that much fun.
    Meh.. I find it useful, mock all you like "musicians"
    Last edited by 55bar; 12-20-2015 at 07:54 PM.

  38. #537

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    Ps thanks doc, I edited as I don't want to come across in the wrong way.

    I'm going to "Erez" but in a less dramatic way..... Just sort of slip into the night

  39. #538

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    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    "Magic chord"

    I never knew or have ever called it by that name, all I know is that it's opened up many doors for me, and helped me see melodic minor more easily.

    Not sure why "musicians" want to make jokes about this?

    This info was passed on to me by Guitar teacher when I was studying more seriously he's currently playing with Steve swallow and Adam Nussbaum.

    If I'd had known he was telling me this info as a joke id NEVER have used it, the embarrassment of being laughed at at gigs would have killed me.

    Agreed I first heard of the Magic Chord a long time ago from Sid Jacobs, later Sheryl Bailey, then a few others mention it. Maybe it will sit better with other with nerdy name of Chord Pluralities. It just looking at a same chord but changing the bass and seeing what it creates.

  40. #539

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    At this point, it might be worth pondering upon Einstein's (often misquoted) statement:

    It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience.

  41. #540

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    I went ahead and ordered Alan's book. I presume it will be somewhat duplicative of Ronnie Ben Hurr's DVD, but I hope both of them reinforce the same important BH concepts in different ways such that BH's way of thinking becomes thoroughly internalized.

    For myself, I'm hardly advanced at anything, having only playing guitar for a few years. Not even close. I have no aspirations of being a professional musician, but I just try and play for my own enjoyment and try to get better all the time. Life would be dreary without music.

    At at the same time, i don't try and simply mimic fingerings, tabs, etc. I try my best to understand the song, within my understanding of functional harmony. I think this is where a lot of the OPs issues and frustrations originate. He needs to understand some of the basics of functional harmony.

    For me, that means trying to understand the tonic, the movement from the dominant to the tonic, The role of the subdominant with all this, The use of the diminished chord as an extension or part of the dominant chord , the interchangeability of (a) I, iii and vi; (b) ii and IV; (c) and V and vii. In addition, the use of secondary dominants , tritone substitutions, etc. and unraveling the layers of the onion to get to the essential core.

    A couple years ago, I had the honor of driving around and having dinner with Oscar Ghiglia, as he came to visit my teacher. I wouldn't presume that anybody here knows who he is, but he was Segovia's greatest student, having studied with El Maestro for over 10 years. You know what they talked about at dinner ? The fundamental relationship and essential cadence in total music between the dominant and the tonic .

    If it's good enough for them, it most certainly is good enough for a completely low level schmo like me .

  42. #541

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    If it's good enough for them, it most certainly is good enough for a completely low level schmo like me .
    Don't take it for granted... really

  43. #542

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    You know what they talked about at dinner ? The fundamental relationship and essential cadence in total music between the dominant and the tonic .
    It's really important in classical music. It's the most important thing probably.. the place and quality of cadence effects how we understand the music...

    but again if you speak about movement it's not the way it is treated there as in jazz in practical way...
    movement from I to V in classical music is pretty simple...
    in this case it is a movement from the key of I to the key of V what brings in complexity

    Classical composers did not think in chords and realtions of chords within a key - there's not so much to think about since you've learnt it.. all these realtions are quite established long ago...
    They think of realtions of keys... that's what makes that music move... the ambiguity of chord in the universe of 24 keys functional tonality... and this realm is really limitless and some of modern music shows is not yet dry by far...

    In jazz it's kind of microscopic approach... you take - for instance - I - V chords as diatonic model (borrowed from classical) and here you have a problem how to move from I chord to V chord and back.. because it's actually where you should have movement in jazz...
    So all the jazz approaches seem to tend to turn a chord changes into a kind of micro-form.. and create an ambiguity for chords realations from classical pint of view staying within one key... but this classical point has no meaning any more since even the ntion of key changes in jazz...

    By the way Alan's book shows it quite clearly... when the key's mentioned there it is only about a key for certain turnaround or short changes... here the key means local diatonic realtions - nothing more...
    and let me stress implied diatonic relation...

    but if you throw there superimposed harmonies or subs or look at it from perspectives of modea - or even all together - then it's enough to imply ambiguity to these two-three chords

    Again I'd like to stress the idea of implication: the changes treated in jazz are so short that we can really imply any concept we want to it... with some fancy, knowledge, and ears - and of course practical skills..


    And that's another difference from classical... in classical these realtions are determined by the whole form... we cannot imply modal concepts to Mozarts V-I cadence just because the whole form of Mozart's sonata of Bach's fugue is determined by the relations of functional tonality...

    This micro approach in jazz may lead to fragmentary playing... so I think it is necessary to focus on the whole song or solo form too especially...

    That's why it is so important - while learning - to follow your own mwlodic sence and to put aside any concept whevevet they contradict it

    By the way - I remember - it seems to be Wes who said in the interview that the only real problem he has is to achieve real integrity in performance...
    Last edited by Jonah; 12-21-2015 at 04:46 AM.

  44. #543

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    I begin to get a bit uncomfortable with the notion of a fundamentally different approach to music between the classical world from the Baroque period through the twentieth century Impressionists and the evolution of jazz. Certainly much of the jazz roots derived from Afro-American and Cuban traditions leading to the Blues and even New Orleans style music. But, many jazz composers were inspired by classical themes, including the work of Chopin (Jobim) and Debussy, et al. (Bill Evans).

    I agree that few of Bach's compatriots would have asked him his chord progressions and use of m6ths to help the poor sod get his harmonic references straight, but it more likely to me that jazz is an offshoot of the great tree of music. With its own "canons" and treatises on harmony - more "permissive" than some of its forbearers but still an offshoot.

    The above is just my personal opinion, not meant to dismiss or insult anyone who has a different opinion.
    Last edited by targuit; 12-21-2015 at 10:03 AM.

  45. #544

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    Hey I'm not disagreeing with anything you have said Jonah. Just saying for myself, but I don't put the cart before the horse . That is, in terms of analyzing a song, I aspire to peel back the layers of the onion (The implications-superimpositions, etc) and to be able to extract something essential that I can work with. Maybe in 10 years, when I've put 6000 -10000 more hours in, I will hopefully have moved onto a different point of view

    With regard to the above referenced conversation about functional harmony, I also remember my teacher's response -"yes the V-I cadence is very important, but there are also other important considerations ". But of course, he was speaking not only as a classical musician, but as a jazz musician . Apparently, there was this one time when Julian Bream asked him to play with him In s duet in a jazz setting. He said that Mr. Bream's harmonic understanding in a jazz setting was that of a 1930s Jazz musician.

    In any event, all that is still way above my pay grade, I'm just trying to not bite off more than I can chew and still maintain the appetite for learning something new every day and always extend and expand my horizons.

  46. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by 55bar
    Thanks for explaining this, as you can see by all my other posts where I used quotes I do know how to do it.

    I think tapatalk which I use on my phone sometimes goes a bit funny.

    Sorry if this has caused you any inconvenience, it wasn't intentional.
    Sorry for being a turd. Maybe not you usually. It just seems too be epidemic on the forums lately. Particularly confusing and difficult to read when quotes are actually attributed to the wrong person (like you reply here).

    I use tapatalk as well. Are you using Android or I-phone?
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-21-2015 at 09:48 AM.

  47. #546
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    This micro approach in jazz may lead to fragmentary playing... so I think it is necessary to focus on the whole song or solo form too especially...
    Great point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    That's why it is so important - while learning - to follow your own mwlodic sence and to put aside any concept whevevet they contradict it

    By the way - I remember - it seems to be Wes who said in the interview that the only real problem he has is to achieve real integrity in performance...
    Love this.

  48. #547

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    Hey I'm not disagreeing with anything you have said Jonah. Just saying for myself, but I don't put the cart before the horse . That is, in terms of analyzing a song, I aspire to peel back the layers of the onion (The implications-superimpositions, etc) and to be able to extract something essential that I can work with. Maybe in 10 years, when I've put 6000 -10000 more hours in, I will hopefully have moved onto a different point of view With regard to the above referenced conversation about functional harmony, I also remember my teacher's response -"yes the V-I cadence is very important, but there are also other important considerations ". But of course, he was speaking not only as a classical musician, but as a jazz musician . Apparently, there was this one time when Julian Bream asked him to play with him In s duet in a jazz setting. He said that Mr. Bream's harmonic understanding in a jazz setting was that of a 1930s Jazz musician. In any event, all that is still way above my pay grade, I'm just trying to not bite off more than I can chew and still maintain the appetite for learning something new every day and always extend and expand my horizons.
    I was not there... and my answer was not addressed to your teacher and Oscal Giglia))).. I answered to you. Anyway I understand your point... The easiest way to understand how cadence works is to go through some classical piece of music (better from late baroque to classical period - up to Beethoven but no further than Schubert)... for me at least it's simpler than to speak in general terms. If you're interested in it - you could pick one and we could give it a try right here

  49. #548
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    I begin to get a bit uncomfortable with the notion of a fundamentally different approach to music between the classical world from the Baroque period through the twentieth century Impressionists and the evolution of jazz. After all, much of the jazz roots included the Blues and even New Orleans style music. Many jazz composers were inspired by classical themes, including the work of Chopin (Jobim) and Debussy, et al. (Bill Evans).

    I agree that few of Bach's compatriots would have asked him his chord progressions and use of m6ths to help the poor sod get his harmonic references straight, but it more likely to me that jazz is an offshoot of the great tree of music. With its own "canons" and treatises on harmony - more "permissive" than some of its forbearers but still an offshoot.

    The above is just my personal opinion, not meant to dismiss or insult anyone who has a different opinion.
    Peter Spitzer, on his fascinating music blog, briefly mentions Jobim's borrowing from Chopin:
    "There’s also “How Insensitive,” which is partly based on Chopin’s Prelude #4 in E minor. I only mention this to round out this article. I’m not sure how to get a good quote out of it."

    These articles, however, relate the characteristic chord sequences of several Jobim tunes to classics from the Great American Songbook:
    Peter Spitzer Music Blog: Jobim's "Out of Nowhere" Tunes
    Peter Spitzer Music Blog: "Bewitched," "Este seu olhar," and "So em teus bracos"

    And there's a follow-up article:
    Peter Spitzer Music Blog: More Jobim Tunes With Borrowed Chords
    Last edited by destinytot; 12-21-2015 at 10:36 AM. Reason: typo

  50. #549

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    I begin to get a bit uncomfortable with the notion of a fundamentally different approach to music between the classical world from the Baroque period through the twentieth century Impressionists and the evolution of jazz. Certainly much of the jazz roots derived from Afro-American and Cuban traditions leading to the Blues and even New Orleans style music. But, many jazz composers were inspired by classical themes, including the work of Chopin (Jobim) and Debussy, et al. (Bill Evans).

    I agree that few of Bach's compatriots would have asked him his chord progressions and use of m6ths to help the poor sod get his harmonic references straight, but it more likely to me that jazz is an offshoot of the great tree of music. With its own "canons" and treatises on harmony - more "permissive" than some of its forbearers but still an offshoot.

    The above is just my personal opinion, not meant to dismiss or insult anyone who has a different opinion.
    Isn't the classic American songbook tune structure AABA loosely based on the classical sonata form? I'm sure I read that somewhere.

    I always thought bebop had similar aspects to some of the Bach classical guitar pieces I played. (A sense of forward momentum, a 'walking' bass line, and a long melodic line in eighth notes which outlines the harmonic progression).

  51. #550

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    I begin to get a bit uncomfortable with the notion of a fundamentally different approach to music between the classical world from the Baroque period through the twentieth century Impressionists and the evolution of jazz. After all, much of the jazz roots included the Blues and even New Orleans style music. Many jazz composers were inspired by classical themes, including the work of Chopin (Jobim) and Debussy, et al. (Bill Evans). I agree that few of Bach's compatriots would have asked him his chord progressions and use of m6ths to help the poor sod get his harmonic references straight, but it more likely to me that jazz is an offshoot of the great tree of music. With its own "canons" and treatises on harmony - more "permissive" than some of its forbearers but still an offshoot. The above is just my personal opinion, not meant to dismiss or insult anyone who has a different opinion.
    Well... as per 'Jobim was inspired by Debussy, or Bill Evans by Chopin'...you see... I think both Debussy and Chopin are first of all not the most typical composers for European tradition... really representative composers are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Bruckner for example Chopin had tendencies to focus more on development on motives, themes and localized development of harmonic movement (like paralell voicings etc)... rather than thinking in terms of general tonal plan of the whole piece as most of the other composers did even after him... his affection to short forms also shows this - he did not need big forms (or rather he was not interesed in possiblities that it copuld give)... even in more complex forms he often has very quick change of key to realative major/minor without any connection.. it's the most abrupt way modualation and he seems to choose it just because he is not interested in real harmonic modualtion in a sence it was used those days... like he feels major and minor more like a colour that as different harmonic keyBesides his music is extremly pianistic - so he uses the resources of the instrument intensivly ... and they become a significant part of his vocabulary... I think nobody before him used specific instrumental texture so actively and so versatile (at leas on keyborads)... And this instrumental quality connects him to jazz playersAs per Debussy... it's clear... lush harmonies.. attempts to develope a new harmonic relations make - unusual liano texture also... But still what's there in Bill Evans from Chopin except some colouristic effects and texture? or with Jobim from Debussy except lush harmonies?