Jazz Guitar Comping Formulas

[guitarplayer007]

Is there a formula for comping... I have the comping for high chords from band box, but all they have are 2-5-1 and 1-6-2-5. But i want to know how you would comp a standard like Autumn Leaves or Foggy day...There must be a bookthat shows examples of comping for standards...i never see them and if i do they never tell how they come up with them..i'm just frustated on how to add more chords and passing chords and comping as well.
thx
Ken

[derek]

We talked about this a few weeks ago on the comping book thread. If you will be a bit more specific with your question, maybe I can do a better job of answering.

Looking back on my response, I gave you most of what I do. Perhaps you want to go bar by bar with ideas?

[guitarplayer007]

well lets see i'm at work so i don't have any music in front of me.. but lets say a song like "All of Me" the first two bars are CMaj7 so what can we do there to flow into the next bar which i believe is D7..
thx
Ken

[derek]

Ok cool. All of Me. I have it open. Goes like thus.

A section - Alternatives

/CM7 / % / E7 / % / - /CM7/Dbdim7 D-7/D#13 E7/reverse/
/ A7 / % / D-7/ % / - /Eb7/ D-7/various inversions of D-7/
/ E7 / %/ A-7/ % / - /D-7b5/F7 A7/D-7/Db7/
/ D7/ %/ D-7/ G7 /

B section

/CM7 / % / E7 / % /
/ A7 / % / D-7/ % /
/FM7/F-7/CM7 E7/ A7/
/D-7/ G7/ C6 / % /

Ok, away from the guitar, this is tough to do. I can see what subs would possibly work, but without hearing what I am playing, things like which shape on which string set, or inversion, I am just guessing.

Things can be theoretically correct, but not sound good. To explain the first couple of lines of the A section, anytime you have a whole step or more between chords, you can connect with diminished.

You can also approach any chord from 1/2 step above or below with dominant chord, hence the D#13 into the E7. I think I can hear this giving a nice chromatic movement to an otherwise fairly static (4 bars 2 chords) line. Reversing it is pretty obvious.

Since I am already there, I can sub out the A7 for the Eb7 (tritone), then half step into the D-7. From there, I thought of playing various inversions of D-7, and maybe landing back on D-9 for a slight variety.

Next line I use D half diminished (borrowing from harmonic minor). Then F7 (IV7) is a sub for the D-7, A7 is the V of D to create movement into the D-7, then sub the Db7 for the G7 which is tritone. It also creates a half step movement back to the I which is CM7.

Now, this may sound like crap, but this is the sort of thing I think about when trying to harmonically fill in a tune like All of Me. Sometimes these ideas work, and sometimes I land on something like this and keep moving because it didn't create the effect I was looking for.

There are much more experienced players here than I, so maybe they will point out any flaws in my thinking, and add some good stuff. I hope some of this helps though.

[guitarplayer007]

I guess i need to really learn my tri tone subs
Ken

[Gramps]

I don't use a formula but I tend to walk my chords like a bass line. (Leading?)

Just look at the the first change to All Of Me where it goes from the C to the E dominant. (I don't have an instrument with me but I think this will work. Someone will correct me if it's wrong.)

| C | C | E | E |

there is a nice little walk C D D# E that could be harmonized as

| C6 D- | D#dim C (put E on top) | E7 | E7 |

Now the E7s are fairly static so you could play |E7 F7 | E7 Ddim |

So you have

| C6 D- | D#dim C (put E on top) | E7 F7 | E7 Ddim |
leading to the A7. (Use the ability of the dim chord to invert it's self every 3 frets to get to the A7 voicing you need for the next phrase.)

Try to think like a bass player walking from one chord to the other.

[pete]

The walking bass line suggested above is one of the most common connectors. You can also do an upper melodic run.

This is an area I've just really started digging into lately, and that Arnie Berle covers nicely. I'm finding it very helpful just practicing with the harmonized scale to learn how things sound. Try walking up and down with these variations in the passing chords:

Diminished

Same quality as next chord (i.e. M7, m7, etc.)

dominant 7 chord

Each of these will sound very familiar.

Another suggestion is to try any chord that shares two chord tones. This gets to be a lot of fun with the alternatives, and helps to develop a great ear for voice leading.

You can also "backcycle" through the Cycle of Fifths until you get to where you want to go.

In the actual comping, just moving up or down a half step into the desired chord with a dom7 or diminished chord is very effective.

The big thing is to make sure you aren't clashing with the melody at any given point. Other than that, like improvising, the possibilities are infinite. And that's the beauty of it!

[Gramps]

Hey Guitarplayer007.

Did any of these suggestions help you out?

[guitarplayer007]

I have tryed them yet, but i do appreciate all the input. Just seem with jazz there are so many areas of study , you don't know which way to turn first. I've been playing rock and blues for over 20yrs and can rip it up in that style. But Jazz is another world and one issue i have is small hands and these chords can be a pain in the butt
I wish i could just stay focused on maybe 4 specific areas of study. The problem is i keep seeing new thing i want to learn.. all i know is its making me crazy. I can't take lesson right now due to financial problems
Thx again
Ken

[derek]

I was watching a Joe Pass vid last night, and one of the things Joe states in every one of his vids, is his use of root based chords. He didn't like stretch chords, saying he didn't want to work that hard.

Pretty much all of his chords are located from 6th, 5th & 4th string root position. If you don't have major, minor, dom, half dim, and full dim forms for each of those positions, I would start there. That gives you 15 different shapes. Throw in major and minor 6th chords, and we now at 21.

I would then go to the 3 inversions of the above, giving you 84 shapes. Adding tensions (diatonic and non) to dominant chords, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, #5,b5,#9,b9, gives you even more.

After knowing this stuff, then I was taught subs. I guess, you would need to define what your immediate goals are as a player. For me it is more chord melody, and less improv. For that reason, I spend more time on chords and arrangements, and less on single line stuff.

You may want to go the other way. I totally understand though what you are saying. Jazz is a bit like being in a candy store. Tough to really stay focused on one thing until we get it down, as there are so many cool things to learn. Good luck

[mr. beaumont]

derek, this is basically how i think-- most of the chord shapes i use a what you'd call "root shapes"-- however, when i'm comping, i'll often leave that root out.

the key is smooth voice leading -- it will let people's ears here things that sound a lot more sweet and complicated than they really are, i think.

[guitarplayer007]

Hi Derek,

Thats my problem... I love Chord melody , but i also love single note soloing. I want to do it all and thats my problem..trying to learn comping,soloing, songs. I once learned joe pass chord melody for Have you met Miss jones.. It was 10 pages long, and took forever...after i memorizied i relized i could'nt really deal with it, to much to maintain. Now i have been learning Rober Conti's Chord solo's which are nice, although i like some single notes between the changes better.
Ken

[Gramps]

I also think root shapes even if I leave the root out. However, since I don't play with a bass player often I normally play the root when playing guitar and mandolin.

For me and the music I play I find simpler is better. Just stay in the pocket and make the transitions from one part of the song to another as smooth and obvious as possible. The other musicians and listeners shouldn't have to guess where your going.

guitarplayer007,

You state "I want to do it all and thats my problem..trying to learn comping,soloing, songs."

I think learning songs is the key. They give you the vehicle to work on comping and the tones within the comping and the melody are used for soloing. As you learn more songs you start to see (hear) how certain devices are used over and over in jazz material. Songs you already know can be the foundation to build upon for the new ones your working on.

[guitarplayer007]

Hey Gramps i hear what your saying about learning songs. Do you or any others on here know of any methods of memorizing songs quicker then repeating them over and over again until you pound them into your head?
Ken

[Gramps]

Ken,

Everyone probably learns and memorizes differently but if I play a song every day for about a week I can normally remember the chords and the melody. I don't only play the song but I do spend time on it every day. Personally, I start working the chords out first and look for sections that repeat. (It happens a lot) I also figure out how the chords relate to the key of the song. In the beginning I don't sweat the alterations too much. I just use maj7 and 6 chords for major chords, 9th and 7th for dominants, min7 for minors and flat the 5 when called for.

Once I have the structure of the song down with the chords I hear the melody and how it works over the chords.

I'm not talking about full finished arrangments. (I read you're working on some Conti arrangments which is different) I Just learn the changes and head, but basically that's the song.

Sometimes the songs are more conplex or different than other songs I play and they take a little longer (Vonetta is one that's challanging me but that's fine) but normally a week is plenty of time to start to understand the bones of a song.

How do you do it?

[Chordwayze]

Ok, away from the guitar, this is tough to do. I can see what subs would possibly work, but without hearing what I am playing, things like which shape on which string set, or inversion, I am just guessing.

Yo Derek,

You think just like I do. Away from the guitar, I find difficulty in talking about substitutions. Need to hear them, and only a few chords seem to lodge in my 'tonal-ear'!

Good explanation btw.

John

[Chordwayze]

Yo Ken,

I know how you feel. You want to learn it all. I suppose at first so did I.
Then I used my common-sense. Boring I know, but the only way to gain the facility to 'do-it-all', is to get the basics down so they are second nature to you. Like a recipe if you wish.

You should know the fretboard, your basic chords and at least two inversions of these chords. Maybe three inversions would be better! You need to know scales and harmonized chord scales and where they are on the fretboard. Once you have these things you can make a start. Learning this stuff is much easier on the guitar than you might think, because you can shift some of it chromatically through the keys.

I am not saying you should learn all this 'dry', without ever wandering from the path. Just experiment with actually 'using' this material, as you go along. As you progress you'll begin to hear melodies in the chords and scales anyway, and suddenly it's more fun than you thought it would be. You stumble across nice sounds that you store away for later. Real serendipity! Now you can start to learn songs and as you fit melodies to chords and vice versa, you will understand instinctively how any particular melody works.

If you know the melody, you will be able to hear it in the chords, or chord scales. If you know chord scales well, you'll hear familiar melodies as you play the scales. You'll even make up some melodies of your own. Now you are getting into jazz!

If you can't read music, then you'll need tab or, as in my case, some means of hearing the basic melody to learn 'how the song goes'. Band-in-a-Box Real Book? After that it's time to embellish. But as you now know your chords and inversions, along with a few practised scales and licks, then it's easier than it was.

Books? Ted Greene's books have some gorgeous chord-work, all set out in mini-progressions. Hundreds of shapes and harmonic ideas. You don't need to know them all. Just try the ones that look interesting. If they please your ear, work them into songs you already know; ease them into your playing and your solos will sound better in weeks, rather than months. His book 'Chord Chemistry' is the best I ever read, on all aspects of chordal work. Bar none. Same goes for his two books of soloing licks and scales. They will drive you mad if you let them! But there is some beautiful stuff in there.

Once you can use this, you can then think about things like 'Quartal-harmony' and 'Polytonal' chords. Oh man have you some treats in store for you. I envy you Ken, I really do. It's a long journey but it's a magical one; and maybe it never ends. It's not the getting there, but the scenic route you take!

All this might be long winded and boring, but that's how I learned. I am still learning and if I can get this far, anyone can. It might sound like 'hack', but in the end it's down to self-discipline.

Best of luck.

John

[guitarplayer007]

Hey John,

Thanks for the words of encoragement i really appreciate it, and yes it is a amazing journey. My journey as only been going on for a littlr over 2 yrs in Jazz but i'm loving it!.
Thx again for your comments
Ken

[derek]

Conti's arrangements are as good as any. I do think his methods are a bit "paint by numbers" like, but his stuff explains some important concepts and gets you playing quickly. I just think there is some depth missing in the long run.

He states that he intentionally makes his arrangements dense (a chord per note is as dense as it gets), but the player can thin them out with single lines as desired. I have learned a few of his btw, and have several of his books, vids and performance cds, all good stuff.

There are so many good collections of arrangements out there. Robert Yelin's 4 books, Mel Bay's collection from various players with 2 cds worth of tunes, etc.

If you haven't been chordmelody.com is the best place for finding such resources. I used Joe Pass as an example, as I think he was the most complete jazz guitarist to breathe, and he rewrote the book on chord melody. Even he states he limited what chords he was willing to use.

If a master such as JP realized he needed limits, then we should be taking smaller bites, and internalizing them before we move on to more. Hang it there, and you will progress, though probably not as fast as you want.

[guitarplayer007]

Hey Derek,

I always loved Joe Pass the best, he is amazing..When you watch him its all seems so effortless.
Yes i purchased many products as well from chord melody. I never considered myself a natural musician, things never come easy to me.. i always have to work extra hard to get some where
Thanks for you imput
ken

[Altered Domenic]

Is there a formula for comping... I have the comping for high chords from band box, but all they have are 2-5-1 and 1-6-2-5. But i want to know how you would comp a standard like Autumn Leaves or Foggy day...There must be a bookthat shows examples of comping for standards...i never see them and if i do they never tell how they come up with them..i'm just frustated on how to add more chords and passing chords and comping as well.
thx
Ken

Thats a GOOD question !! And I have the anwer : LEARN THE TUNE !!!
There are NO short cuts !!
Harmony is like maths.It all numbers.
Bet you cant get back to me when you fully understnd this :
1 :Use these voicings and then find thier subs : 69 ie Maj69 and Dom69
these 2 are for your straight ahead Major and Dominant chords where there is no other choice - dont get too carried away otherwise you'll confuse your listener. But the 69 voicings sound... N I C E !!!!
2: Flow into your changes to major or minor with b9b13 Alt Doms.
Beautiful and its all you'll need.
3: Add to that LYDIAN anything and you're there.
4 : Check out John Schofield's video.
5: Watch Martin Taylor.
6 : Listen to Wes.
7 : Commit.

[Jazzarian]

well lets see i'm at work so i don't have any music in front of me.. but lets say a song like "All of Me" the first two bars are CMaj7 so what can we do there to flow into the next bar which i believe is D7..
thx
Ken

It kind of boils down to chord substitution. Certainly one could easily substitute a D9, D11, or D13 for the D7. An F#m7b5 would also work (7th degree of G Major, the half diminished). So would a Bm7 (3d degree of G Major).

Tritone substitution is pretty simple stuff. Simply go up an augmented 4th (diminished 5th) from the 5th of the present scale and use that dominate 7th. Key of C, sub-ing for the G7, it would be Db7 (C#7), a tritone above.

It should be noted, neither Quiznos or Subway has a Tritone Sub. :}
If you think that's bad, try asking for a "Nautilus" with the works.

[Chordwayze]

Is there a formula for comping... I have the comping for high chords from band box, but all they have are 2-5-1 and 1-6-2-5. But i want to know how you would comp a standard like Autumn Leaves or Foggy day...There must be a bookthat shows examples of comping for standards...Ken

Hi 007,

First off:

Foggy Day is 1,6,2,5.
I call them the 'ice cream' or the 'vanilla' chords.

in F:

Fmaj7, F6 (Dm), Gm, C7,

That is:
1,6,2,5...
At the the fourth bar you can use an Abm (Db9)

For any song, you can approach your chord in half-steps, (from one fret above or below) using the same shape. You would have a 'beat' on each of your chords of course. This 'colours' up the Rhythm, and uses substitutes, which is all comping really is.

If you don't know the basic chords well, try to use chords that have identical tones on the highest string, and match them to the melody.

Predominantly, use chords that employ the inside strings. Leave the bass notes to the bass player, if there is one, but follow the bass for the line. It all sounds crisper that way. If there is a keyboard player, remember they have 88 keys, and the keyboard is generally louder than you. So you will be comping mostly with sparse, fill-ins.

Don't clutter your mind with masses of chords, but find eight to ten shapes that work for you and which you can grab easily.

After that it's a matter of feel for the melody, and what a soloist is doing.
That's my approach, constrained only by enduring the avoidance of dischords.
If you would like a sheet for 'Autumn leaves' I can oblige if you would like to send me your email to chordwayze@aol.com

Hope that helps.
Merry Christmas and a Good new year
John

[Altered Domenic]

Happy Xmas every1625, 251, 3625 !!

[Chordwayze]

A very Merry Chrimble and Happy New Gear to Everyone!

John