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Still working out on my comping skills. As the question above asks, which chord do I use when I see "Sus?"
As always, thanks!
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06-21-2013 10:04 PM
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It's ALWAYS up to you...on a jazz chart...
in jazz, sus usually means 4th instead of 3rd. Rock and pop might be more apt to use the sus2 as well. Church charts will say "C2" if it's a Csus2...
If it's a dominant chord try 4 first...
it's always about function and implication. Context determines...1 chord in a pop tune, maybe a sus2...Gsus to a G13 to Cmaj...try the 4...
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As an older lady told me the other day at the grocery store when I opened the door for her, "God bless you, young man..."
Last edited by AlsoRan; 06-21-2013 at 10:34 PM.
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In jazz charts "sus" always means "sus4" (never sus2), and usually implies a 7th (b7).
IOW, "Dsus" implies the notes D G A C (D7sus4). You can voice them in any order - although a common implication of sus chords in jazz is quartal voicings: stacking notes in 4ths (as far as possible) rather than 3rds.
So a "Dsus" might well be voiced A-D-G-C (an easy shape on guitar).
You could also add the 9th (E), possibly a 13th (B), and maybe even the 3rd, which you can assume is major (F#) - if you want to (or can) include that, make sure it goes above the G.
IOW, the "2" (E) may be included in the chord, but the 4th (G) is the crucial note (and the 7th, C, means E is the "9th").
The usual scale implication, therefore, is mixolydian mode. The three minor modes could also fit D7sus4, but these are less likely. (Context should help confirm that.) If a minor 3rd (F) was intended, the chord would probably be labelled "Dm11", because adding 4th (11th) does not require the omission of a minor 3rd.
(The reason sus2 chords are not generally found in jazz is - IMO
- that jazz players always like to include a 3rd if possible. A D-root chord containing D-E-A alone would seem too dull or meaningless to a jazz musician; there'd be no good reason not to add F or F#, depending on what suited the context. The notes D-E-A would usually be regarded as Asus4, or a partial E7sus4, or G69 or C69.)
If playing with a bassist, you can omit the root, which leaves you with an Am7 chord. (D9sus4 = Am7/D)
None of the above is RULES, remember - just "common practices".
Last edited by JonR; 06-22-2013 at 06:16 AM.
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JonR, thanks for the explanation. I to have always wondered what to play with a Dsus(example) chord.
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True, but I would add the obvious: the 4th is no longer an "avoid" note in Mixolydian.
Originally Posted by JonR
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Just giving another perspective, with maybe some 'news you can use' at the bottom.
When I see "Dsus" in a jazz chart I know it as short hand for "D7sus4"
Dsus means D7sus4 which means the notes D G A C, but it means that in the same way that Dmaj7 means the notes D F# A C# or Dm7 means D F A C...
We typically add extensions (some form of 9, 11, and/or 13) and often omit notes from the basic chord spelling depending on what we are trying to do while comping - which is, conventionally, state or imply the harmony while playing a complimentary melodic line to the soloist...with good time, hah.
Stylistically, different extensions and different types of voicings are used in different contexts, but is common to include extensions and to omit the fifth.
Not having any type of third in the base spelling of the chord does make sus chords unique. While most seventh chords can be looked at as built in thirds, some form of 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 to get the base chord and three conventional extensions, the sus4 spelling doesn't have that consistency.
However, if we want to be able to actually look at a sus4 chord in a "thirds-based" manner I find it convenient to think of a 7sus4 chord as really a m7 chord with its fourth as the bass note, as Jon stated.
If we look at an Am7 and what we might consider the most conventional extensions, we get
A C E G B D F#
that's 1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13 for A
but for D it's 5 b7 9 11 13 1 3....or we could even call the 3 a "10"
Here's the practical result - just as a starting point, to get familiar with the sound and a conventional approach, for a beginner, (just trying to cover my disclaimers here) I think your best bet is to think of a Dsus as an Am7 with a D in the bass, and for voicings I think that simply playing a C triad with a D bass note gets the job done. So a few stock D7sus4 voicings could be:
X D G C E X
X D X C E G
D X C E G
Simple, gets you through, and in my opinion, sounds better than playing from the literal spelling. Compare them for yourself...
C triad with D bass note is, relative to D, a b7, a 9, and an 11. No fifth, it's not essential.
It's true that the bass player may be playing or emphasizing the root, D, meaning the chordal instrument doesn't have to include that note in order to establish the harmony. That frees up your fingerings and your possibilities. If I'm not the one playing bass notes, I find it convenient to think of a D7sus4 as an Am7, from dorian, so I may play voicings of Cmaj7 (which is rootless Am9, but also gives us b7, 9, 11, and 13 over the D.)
So I think of the F# over a D7sus4 in much the same way I might think of an F# over an Am7. It is definitely not an 'avoid note' or anything that has dire consequences, and it fits directly in the most conventional 7 note scale for both of these chords, I just take care to learn how the note interacts with the other notes present, both vertically and horizontally.
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I'll understand what you wrote, probably never.
Here's my question, may be OT, hopefully not too stupid.
Could I regard, as experienced in practice, sus chord as b7sus4, serving in resolutions, as a sub for tritone sub of a dominant over dminant?
Ie. in C you comonly experince Ab to G resolution. That Ab is tritone of D (dominant of G). When I play arround with chords, instead of Ab I find it's ok to play G7sus4.
Most likely ther's some other theory and proper name for this?
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As always, always thanks JonR and Jake for the "rest of the story."
Cut it...pasted it to a word document...printed it out....added it to my Jazz instructional notes
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I'm sorry, I try to be as clear as possible in these descriptions...if something was confusing or not straight forward let me know I can try to explain my thinking again. Originally Posted by Vladan
G7sus4 to G7 is a common cadence in C. Originally Posted by Vladan
You could think
G7sus4 to G7
as
Dm7/G to G7. Same notes.
So you could think of it as a ii V where the fifth of the key (G) is being pedaled.
I think the Ab and tritone stuff is a bit removed, seeing as there is no Ab note in a G7sus4, and there's no tritone sub either for G or D.
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^^^ What Jake said, but there's another common sus, which I think of as the minor version of G7sus4=Dm7/G.
It is G7b9sus4=Dm7b5/G. I think of G7b9sus4 as the minor II chord, Dm7b5, over the dominant pedal note G. This could be heading to a resolution on a C minor chord, but just as Galt can deke and resolve to CMaj7, so Dm7b5/G can resolve to CMaj7. There's your Ab note.
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Yep, different chord, but I see it the same way.
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It's not your fault that I don't understand something. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
And you're right. I just tried to play what I spoke about, and in fact those two things do not come interchangeable, but rather follow each other, if this make any sense, but that's the wy I see it. Sory for taking your time.
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Sorry for 2 posts in a row, just for Big Daddy,
I always seam to differ by a note. In this combination I use Bdim together with E7#5, which is almost the one you speak about, only split in 2. Also, it's not note Ab that I care about there, but note C.
I shouldn''t have switched keys from OP, but OK, we're Jazzin'.
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No apology needed, I'm just trying to be helpful. Originally Posted by Vladan
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Sometimes.. the Gsusb9 to Cmaj chord pattern is really use of Modal interchange or parallel Maj and Min concept.
G7 to Cmaj
G7 to Cmin... C- could be parallel Min. of Cmaj.
If we now hear or think in Cmin. G becomes G-, V- of I-. (or in relative Maj...Ebmaj. G becomes 3rd degree of Eb)
We commonly use Gsusb9 as voicing for III-... a common method of creating a Dominant chord, especially when resolving to the relative Min.... C-7 (V7susb9 to Imin)
Thinking or hearing D-7b5/G is also common... just trying to give a different access or source for Ab note.
So,
G7 to Cmaj.....basic reference
G7 to Cmin.....Parallel Min. (modal Interchange)
G7susb9 to Cmin... Using Parallel Min reference...again from Modal Interchange
G7susb9 to Cmaj... keeping the modal Interchange V chord and modal Interchanging back to original Imaj7 chord.
Reg
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One cool thing about G7sus4 to CMaj7, is that to my ears, it reverses the usual voice leading:
With G7 to CMaj7, I head the B note wanting to resolve up to C (even it gets stuck on B, I hear it yearning!)
With G7sus4 to CMaj7, I hear the C note wanting to resolve down to B.
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Off the topic of jazz, but Brian Wilson would do that, and things like it, a lot.
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Similar to some of what Jake wrote, when I see a sus chord, my go-to thing is to play bop off of it's ii7, i.e. over Dsus, I might play Amin bop stuff.
....just the fact that I do anything in a "go-to" manner kind of bugs me, come to think about it...
Think it's time to shed Maiden Voyage and steer clear of bebop, heh...
A Melodic minor would be fair game, as would A & B minor pentatonic......okay, and E pent...
BTW -
I've always found it difficult to play much in the way of tensions on a sus chord.
If who ever is comping is at all heavy-handed, it's pretty much "inside-city" except for passing tones...
Have you all found that to be the case as well?
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Not really, sus chords have at least twice as many options for creating different relationships... dom or min references and go from there. You can always use quartal or organization in 4ths as reference for creating relationships also.
I use sus chords as means of creating reference for different relationships within standard chord patterns.
I always use sus with MM relationships.
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One of my revelatory jazz moments was realising for a quick sus4 sound you can just play a major triad down a tone, ie Asus4 subbed with a Gmaj triad. Similar thinking to the above mentioned sub Am7/Dsus4.
Another sus trick, Bbsus2 = Fsus4
eg.
1
1
3
3Last edited by colski; 06-27-2013 at 10:49 AM. Reason: (edited to delete dumb mistake!)
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Why would anyone think a sus2 "seem[s] too dull or meaningless"?? Any chord can sound good in the right context (yes, even in jazz). Originally Posted by JonR
In jazz charts "sus" always means "sus4" (never sus2), and usually implies a 7th (b7).
IOW, "Dsus" implies the notes D G A C (D7sus4). You can voice them in any order - although a common implication of sus chords in jazz is quartal voicings: stacking notes in 4ths (as far as possible) rather than 3rds.
So a "Dsus" might well be voiced A-D-G-C (an easy shape on guitar).
You could also add the 9th (E), possibly a 13th (B), and maybe even the 3rd, which you can assume is major (F#) - if you want to (or can) include that, make sure it goes above the G.
IOW, the "2" (E) may be included in the chord, but the 4th (G) is the crucial note (and the 7th, C, means E is the "9th").
The usual scale implication, therefore, is mixolydian mode. The three minor modes could also fit D7sus4, but these are less likely. (Context should help confirm that.) If a minor 3rd (F) was intended, the chord would probably be labelled "Dm11", because adding 4th (11th) does not require the omission of a minor 3rd.
(The reason sus2 chords are not generally found in jazz is - IMO - that jazz players always like to include a 3rd if possible. A D-root chord containing D-E-A alone would seem too dull or meaningless to a jazz musician; there'd be no good reason not to add F or F#, depending on what suited the context. The notes D-E-A would usually be regarded as Asus4, or a partial E7sus4, or G69 or C69.)
If playing with a bassist, you can omit the root, which leaves you with an Am7 chord. (D9sus4 = Am7/D)
None of the above is RULES, remember - just "common practices".
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7sus4 is technically a minor chord and a common substitution for a m7-chord that resolves down to a major chord.
7sus2 is technically a major chord and a substitution for a major chord that resolves up to minor chord.
Therefore sus4 and sus2 are not universally interchangeable.
Explanation:
Even though the 3rd is omitted in a sus-chord, the chord still has a function in a tonal progression.
the 4th would clash with a major 3rd (just a semi step apart).
the 2nd would clash with a minor 3rd (just a semi step apart).
Also note that 7sus4 is different from sus4 and 7sus2 is different from sus2. Writing just "sus" is sloppy, but usually means 7sus4 (a straightforward substitution of a m7-chord, common in Soul and Gospel).
(7)sus2 is less common in writing, often because of functional ambiguity. For example; X 3 X 3 3 3 could be represented as Gm/C or C7sus2 but only one of the two would be correct depending on function, something the guy that wrote "sus" probably doesn't reflect on.
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usually it’s a 7sus4 Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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I thought it would be useful to clarify things for the beginner guitarist as chords are really quite simple...
If we have a Major chord, like C Major, we don't say it's Major, so just say C
If we have a minor chord, like C minor, we DO say it's minor, so say Cmin (C-, Cm, Cmi...)
If we add a 7th to the standard triads, how we name it depends on the type of 7th.
All major 7ths are referred to as Major, i.e. M7, triangle, sometimes triangle 7), so we may have CM7. That's not CM, it's C and the M refers to the 7.
And not +7 as that means something else.
If we have a minor 7th, then we don't specify that that's the case, although we did when dealing with triads. So we may have Cm7 - a minor triad with a minor 7th. Not C Major with a minor 7th...
If we have a minor 7th with a major triad, we don't say the triad is Major and we don't say the 7th is minor. So C7 is a major triad with a minor 7th. CmM7 is a minor triad with a Major 7th.
Unless otherwise stated, all 9ths are considered as major intervals from the root and not the harmonised 9th that results from parsing a scale. This means that some chords will contain notes that do not belong in the key but are erroneously played in accompanying comping. So, the natural 9ths are occasionally marked flat.
It is generally accepted that any 4 in a sus4 chord replaces the 3rd, thereby providing the sus-ness. The 2 in a sus 2 chord doesn't replace anything, so is often referred to as an 'add 2'. A sus 4,2 chord has one replacement, and one not replacement. An add 9 chord is similar to an add 2 chord but effectively replaces the 10th, leaving the 3rd intact in the lower octave.
An 11th chord on the guitar is another way of playing a 7sus4. We don't mention the implied 7ths and 9ths which is how it's not a simple sus4. It's called 11 but in fact is a sus4, i.e. in the lower octave but with a 7th and a 9th. Which aren't mentioned, unless altered. Though 7ths are not 'altered'. Unless diminished. Possibly. Or augmented, which isn't +7.
When playing an 11th chord, do not expect it to resolve to the 3rd. 4ths do that. If it resolves anywhere, it resolves to the 10th, but doesn't as the chord itself sounds fine as an unresolved grooving chord - effectively stacked 4ths, apart from one of them. So the 3rd can be played with an 11th. But isn't.
Hope that helps.
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