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It's funny cause maybe it is my own conservatism but I love comping, I love Freddie Green. Not his chord voicings per se but just the "left hand man" schtik. I guess what caught my eye and made me want to say something was...
"Think of it this way, if you keep playing 13ths your soloist has no where to go but the 13th you are dictating to them. Similarly, if you sub you soloist will have to sub. This is called the 'tail wagging the dog'. If you play invertions of simple 7th chords and do so in a funky syncopated manner your soloist will be inspired and - hopefully - will treat you to some great comping when it is your turn to blow."
The thing is...at least to my ears...that a tritone sub works cause of the common tones which means if you sub, and they don't...no biggy. Maybe it is tenser then you had aimed for but you'll get together on the next chord. Also, if you play a really funky rhythm then maybe your soloist can't play thier funky rhythm, or maybe you make their motiff sound weird. It is just me and my style but you can be cool, tight and THERE with your soloist without breakin' out the crazy. If you listen to say, Freddie, you really do hear these little nods, repeated motiffs etc that said to Bassie "I'm with ya" but it was about the Soloist and the group, not about how awesome the accompaniast sounded alone. I guess for me all this blather boils down to...."while you comp it is about everyone but you, and when(if) you solo it is ALL about you"
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01-03-2008 04:02 AM
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Michael,
I agree with you regarding supporting the soloist.
...."while you comp it is about everyone but you, and when(if) you solo it is ALL about you"
I think regardless of how you are supporting the soloist, it should be about "the soloist" (unless there is a previous arangement on how the tune is approached). Certainly, in an impromptu jam session we all need to stay closer to a simple approach (I think so anyway); just so we can play together when we have no history of playing together. This is one of the most beautiful aspects of jazz to me - Just being able to play together because the idiom is understood.
While I love a lot of activity from the entire band when I play (most of the time it seems<g>) it is very, very refreshing to play a tune where you just lay down "four to the bar." You can really feel the tension disolve and just enjoy the "groove."
My main point to my previous post was in regard to musicians "needing" someone to provide a foundation. I think we should all work towards being able to withstand and thrive in any situation. This does not imply that providing that foundation, as a choice, is not desirable sometimes.
-Butch
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Butch,
Man I hope you didn't think I was dissin' on your post or somethin'....quite the contrary I agree with you 100%!!
For me, and only me, I am not trying to found a school or somethin', I am all about compin'. My ideal gig? Ella or maybe Sarah Vaughn, a drummer, bass, guitar....that't it. Just let me lay down a groove on the upbeat tunes and just shuffle along on the slow songs, adding little touches, a few little fills....thats love right there!!! The truth is me soloing sounds an awful lot like really jazzy guys statin' the melody...
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there are many good books on the topic, get one. I recommend Jim Ferguson's "All Blues for Jazz Guitar Comping Styles, Chords & Grooves".
the most important thing to be a good comper is not to know 1000 different chords, but to memorize the fundamental chord shapes across the fretboard. For example I use about 5-6 fundamental shapes for each of the main type of chords (maj7, min7, dom7, m7b5), and then each fundamental shape has perhaps a few other variations (especially the dom7). So I end up using about 100 different chord shapes the most, but with only about 25-30 core shapes. The system I use is extremely effective at playing any changes I come across, anywhere on the fretboard. My point is, it's not how many chords you know, it's that you know just a few of the right ones. A good rule of thumb is that for each BASIC chord type (maj7, min7, dom7, m7b5) you should have enough patterns that you can play it every 3 or 4 frets, up the entire neck, so that you have all general areas of the fretboard covered for that chord type. This is important because you don't want to have to jump around to play a chord that you can play in the position or nearby position that you are already at. So whether you are in the 1st position, 5th, 7th, 10th or 12th, you should be able to play a C major 7 chord, for example.
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I heard one players "rule of thumb" as "No more then 2"....meaning that he never had to move more then 2 frets to get from chord A to chord B...I am not sure how possible that is, or even to be able to play every chord in every basic position....at least I sort of assume that certain voicings/positions would be less satisfactory then others.
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I know lots of guys who can produce pretty much any chord you wish at any position you wish. I am of the opinion that the greater your chord vocabulary the better.
I am working on a chord melody tune currently, and am trying to play the melody and changes in 4 places on the neck without repeating chords. Quite a challenge for me, but when I am done, I will be able to perform the tune playing several choruses of it without repeating how I play it.
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Now that I start thinking about you are 100% right on. I am used to thinking in notes on guitar (playing written out classical arrangements)...sitting and really thinking about it you can grab enough notes almost anywhere on the guitar to imply a specific chord.
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I like this approach as well. Each position on the guitar generates new inversions and offers new voice leading problems to solve yielding new chord melodies with different textures and inner lines.
Originally Posted by derek
On the one hand, this makes the guitar a more difficult instrument to become fluent on but, at the same time, it offers many views of the same harmonic problem. - I think this is why the instument produces a seemingly endless array of styles.
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that's not possible, trust me its every 3-4 frets, he probably meant "don't move more than 2 frets", but what I mean is different --- every 3 frets you have the same chord repeat in a different inversion, but one chords 3rd or 4th fret, becomes the next chords 1st fret, so they overlap and there is no actual space between each chord. I think you misunderstood my statement to mean that I move 3 frets to get to the next chord, but no, I don't even move 1 fret. Originally Posted by MichaelJohnson@noirmusic.
You can't squeeze two completely different C major 7 chords just 2 frets apart, it is physically impossible. Let me further explain, the first c major 7 chord that you can even play on the fretboard is: x,3,2,0,0,0 <-- this chord is laid out over 4 frets 0-3, following so far? the next practical, and totally different C major 7 chord (i.e. not just a variation or fragment of the first one) would be: x,3,5,4,5,x <--- this chord also spans exactly 3 frets, frets 3-5. The next C major 7 chord: x,x,5,5,5,7 also happens to span exactly 3 frets.....and this continues. Notice how my chord forms all overlap, there is NO gap between them, not 2 frets, not even 1. But what I said is still true --- the chords happen every 3 or 4 frets. Make sense now? It's totally impossible to have them happen every 2 frets....so you misheard or misunderstood what the other guy said....Like I said, he probably meant don't MOVE more than 2 frets to get from one chord to another ---- and you'll notice that using my chords, you don't even move 1 fret....and yet the chords them selves each span 3 to 4 frets, which is exactly what I said in the first place...Last edited by jazzadellic; 01-08-2008 at 08:20 PM.
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Jazzadellic -
I never trust anyone who says "Trust me...
Interestingly I was reading more about not having to move more then two frets and aparently that was a standard goal for several big band guitarists. No leaps just smooth sailing...I 've found several quotes from Freddie Green and others talking about it. I am not sure why you would choose Cmaj7 for both A and B in a progression. However ii-V-I (as an example) or even I-IV-V are both possible while moving two or fewer frets....
X2X1XX - E7
XX2X2X - A7
224242 - B7
So we can go back to E7 or we can go...2 frets up and get a
456454
Even if for some reason you decided you wanted to play Cmaj7 and then switch chords to Cmaj7 you could play
X32XXX
M22453
Which I know doesn't satisify a rather arbitrary rule of "two COMPLETELY different CMaj7" because of one common note. However I don't think anyone would argue that these aren't two DIFFERENT Cmaj7 spellings and are only 2 frets apart. For that matter...
X32XXX
M22453
335453
mm5557
7710987
8109988
So on and so forth...I am not sure why the assumption would be that you have to change all the notes when moving chords around or even why you can't have 3 note spellings (1-3-7 sounds nice)... Still to each there own...
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Try these.
3324xx
x324x3
xx2413
3x241x
x22x13
x7541x be careful it's a tough stretch.
All usable. easily reachable if practised (ok the last one's a mutha). All within the same 4 frets except the last one. Each one has it's own shade of the same colour. ya gotta love music!
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nice!
although you are joking with that last one... can play it like this, with the c an octave higher
x754x8
what are you playing it on, a chuffing ukelali?
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No mate, as written. Don't overstretch now dan.
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Lol I think we have a 100% list now!!
So two frets apart = noooo problem...
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Getting back to original question. For me, spending a few years playing in big bands helped my comping immensely. So i would recommend anyone wanting to improve their comping to listen and jam along with some big band stuff:
1- the horn section can give you tons of comping rhythmic ideas, especially the shots.
2- In a big band, you're part of the rhythm section as a guitarist, not a soloist. You'll learn to comp by INTUITION, not just work out patterns.
Also, it's really imperative that you should learn to play dynamically when comping, make use of pick& fingers style, as well as Freddie Green strumming to the old volume knob to fit in with the group's dynamic situation.
Some favorite "compers" for me: Ed Bickert, McCoy Tyner, Michel Camilo, Russell Malone
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Tung -
I, for one, would love to hear more of your thoughts on playing as part of a Rhythm section....
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The thing about playing in a rhythm section, or playing in any jazz ensemble for that matter, is to leave space and interact with what's going on. This can only be learn by doing it, getting together with people and play.
One thing that is a common mistake is a lot of these "trained" players are just playing way too much when they comped. Bill Frisell and Scofield are great at comping because they know the importance of space. They also know the importance of just playing 2 or 3 note voicings to stay out of the bass player's way and outline more upper structure of the chords, range and voice leading.
I think it's important to work out as many rhythmic and harmonic patterns under your fingers as possible, but it's equally important to learn to just groove with the rhythm section, play what feels good and try to find what sits in the pocket.
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Being a newbie I humbly remind all that comping is short for accompany.
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Tung - Originally Posted by Tung
So what sort of Rhythm variations do you try and incorperate in your playing? How do you go about keeping things lively and "mixed up" as it were?
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I read the 2 frets away thing as voice leading. Am I wrong here? Also, it IS quite possible to play another version of the same chord within a couple of frets when using substitutes.
If we are talking about CMajor7, then obviously the mediant (E) and submediant (A) immediately come to mind. With their various inversions, one could make a go at playing various CM chords one right after the other up and down the neck without moving much at all.
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Sure if you include substitutes for chords, build them off the 4th, 5th, and 6th strings you can easily find smooth voice leadings for chords. I have to admit I didn't even consider the substitutes in this discussion....
Great point!!
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hey Michael you might want to check these three "comping monsters" Ed Bickert with Paul Desmond, Tuck Andress with his wife Patti, and Wynton Kelly. Also as you advance the realization you may have is that of trying to make the guitar sound like the interior voices of a big band. Check out the Count Basie Band and try to pick out all the "background" melodies that the soloist's play over. All those riff's are moving lines placed in the "correct" dynamic(volume) range. This I think is the beginning of comping that adds melodic material based in the harmony of the tune. This is similar to the polyphony of early New Orleans Jazz. As a guitarist we have to think chords so learn as many as you can, however hopefully at some point you begin to "hear" the lines that make up the chords. Good Luck!!!!
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Ed -
Appreciate that list of performers! As a Sax player I always loved Paul Desmond so I'd like to hear some "Cool School" Jazz guitar!
I've always loved Bassie, I own a lot of his stuff and have spent a lot of time picking apart the piano parts trying to get a feel for the negative space that he and Miles Davis seem to employ so effortlessly! Most of my recordings the guitar blends so much it is really hard to pick out the chord voicings...I may pick up a graphic EQ or play the discs on computer just so I can slow it down and eq-out some of the other parts....
Thanks again man!
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Originally Posted by danjw
Yow.... how exactly do you finger that? I can get it but I can't get into it quickly with any fingering I can come up with.... Maybe your real name is Gumby?
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not to add to the arguement, but a bigger thing for freddie green (and a lot of swing cats) was to keep the important notes on the third and fourth string. strings themselves have a tonal characteristic, or an overall "timbre." when i play a swing-ish rhythm, moving around laterally or lack thereof isn't my main concern, it's keeping the important notes on the inside strings. adds to the overall percussiveness, and staying on the same two strings helps keep the overall timbre of the chords more consistent.
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