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  1. #51

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    OK so here is simple example of comping for "Sandu". The lead line or note on top is using blue notes. Generally you would play chords short and have rhythmic patterns going on. Example could be... divide the tune into three 4 bar sections.

    The organization could be....bars 1-4... play the 1st two bars anticipating beats 1 and 3 and then down beats and more active or let ring longer bars 3 and 4.

    Same for bars 5-8, at least close, then bars 9-12, break the rhythmic pattern to set up the feel and perception of repeat. The point is your locking in a groove....creating basic reference for soloist. The music can go different places and you'll interact with soloist... but you'll have established a basic reference for developing the tune. There are very simple physical reasons why some music locks in and feel great.

    The part below is just example... I generally have much more going on, but the trick is to have a feel and sound that creates space...or at least the perception of. The better you become, with organizing Form, harmony, melodic lines, rhythm and articulations... the more you have the option of playing.

    The example is pretty vanilla blue note harmony organization.... there are many possibilities and once you establish the patterns or organization of the simple Form...your free to add Chord Patterns, actually change tonal references using Tonal targets. Example could be... Making the tune have a I-7 feel. Keep the IV7 chord but use Minor Blues Turnarounds. You could also adjust the Head for the out chorus. Mainly just change the G nat. to Gb and adjust the last four bars... anyway.
    I generally use bass lines, melodic figures, montuno like licks .... chord patterns... all simultaneously to create a part while accompanying. And the voicings are just for example.... when actually performing.... The setting would help me decide on style and feel etc...

    X 6 6 6 6 6.........Eb9sus
    5 x 5 6 7 X.........A13
    ----------------------
    X 3 4 3 4 X.........Ab9 (C-7b5)
    6 X 6 7 7 X.........Bb7b13
    ----------------------
    X 4 5 5 4 X..........Eb7add13 over db
    6 X 6 7 7 X..........Bb7b13
    ----------------------
    X 6 6 6 6 8..........Eb13sus
    5 X 5 6 7 7..........A13
    ----------------------
    ----------------------
    4 X 4 5 6 6..........Ab13
    X 6 4 6 7 X..........Eb-7
    ----------------------
    4 X 4 3 3 X..........Ab9#11 or (X 3 4 3 4 X) if you don't like #11
    6 X 6 7 7 X..........Bb7b13
    ----------------------
    X 4 5 5 4 X..........Eb7 13
    4 X 4 5 6 X..........Ab13
    ----------------------
    3 X 3 3 3 3..........G-7
    X 3 2 3 4 4..........C7b13#9
    -------------------------
    -------------------------
    X X 6 5 4 6 ...........F-7 11
    X X 8 9 9 11.........C7#9b13
    -------------------------
    X X 6 8 8 8............F-9
    X X 6 7 7 9............Bb7#9b13
    ------------------------
    X 4 5 5 4 X............Eb7 13
    8 X 8 9 9 X.............C7b13
    ------------------------
    X 8 6 8 8 8............F-9
    6 X 6 7 7 X............Bb6b13
    ----------------------
    ----------------------

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Some may find this helpful...


  4. #53

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    I've always enjoyed Peters playing, solo and comping , on this version of Sandu -


    and how can you not love Colin Stranahan on drums the guys feel is infectious!!!!!

    Will

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
    I was kind of shocked when Peter said he doesn't like it when the comper plays a walking bass line with chord stabs. WTF? To me that's one of the coolest sounding things the comping guitarist can do in a duet situation. Done judiciously and not overdone of course.

    There are way too many great players who do this for Bernstein to dismiss it as something that "some of these guys do this thing where they ..."

    Berstein is one the most respected and admired Jazz guitarists around today, but this is just his opinion. I can't play worth a $hit, but I know what I like and I like how a walking bass with chord stabs sounds.

    I wonder how some of you feel about this.
    Well I'm not a great jazz player either (passionate hobbyist, play some gigs, but definitely non-pro!!), however I've seen Peter play live a bunch of times and I actually played duo with him at one of his workshops. What I was going to say based on that workshop experience is actually explained in the video in the 1 minute after he first makes that comment about the walking bass (so roughly from 9:40 to 10:40 or so). I also remember from the workshop that Peter's not a big fan of the comping player in a duo situation playing on the off-beats more than very sparsely - leave that for the soloist...the comper should focus more on the downbeats. Personally I wouldn't want a comper playing that walking bass thing for me either.

    Kind of a tangent, but I think the best way to learn to comp is to listen to Grant Green comp for the bass solos on the Green Street album. If you listen to some of that and then go back to listen to what Peter describes in the video, you'll hear a lot of similarities (er, other than that Grant stays off the bass strings while comping for bass - and is usually the case if a bass player is doing their usual thing) - like mixing it up between long and short notes and focusing on groove. I think the best piano compers also played like this - check out comping by guys like Hampton Hawes or Sonny Clark comping for bass and you'll hear they're all coming at it very similarly....and I see that as very similar to how to comp in a duo.

  6. #55

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    Peter mostly 'sings' comping... to me it is essential part of his comping as process: he 'sings' it almost as melodic counterpoint. This probably explains some things that may seem inconsistent or unlogical from point of view of harmonic/rythm approach.

    Disclaimer: words 'melodic'/'harmonic'/'rhythmic' mean only proritized way ov thinking here. Obviously a melody has rhythm and some harmonic layout in chords, as well as harmony may have onvious melodic voice. But in a final result it is important what the player hears as prioriy (namely HEARS)

  7. #56

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    Thank you everybody for contributing (special nod to DJG and Reg). Today I finally have the time to go through the suggestion in detail.

    Christian also elaborated on the matter en detail via pm and allowed me to post the content - but he doesn't want to be involved in the discussion.


    Peter’s concept is based around the melody. So this can obviously be the melody of a tune or in the example you posted the lead line of his comping in the top notes of the chords.

    Basically everything is boiled down to simple functions - eg I IV V - or some sort of passing chord.

    The main aspect of his playing that is so distinctive is movement. So everything always moves. You won’t hear him repeat a voicing. And he doesn’t like to return to chord I too much, as this tends to stop the harmony moving. Instead Peter will target V chords, IV chords, and so on.

    The movement basis is not terribly theory oriented; at no point was he taking about chord scales or even chord names. It’s all really practical, fretboard based and based on voice leading.

    One technique Peter uses a lot is very guitaristic - just moving a standard grip by semitones. For instance, say we have Cm7:

    8 x 8 8 8 x

    we might set it up with Dbm7

    9 x 9 9 9 x

    However what he does to make this more interesting is to think about the top note. So he might have this:

    9 x 9 9 7 x
    8 x 8 8 8 x

    So contrary motion right? Sounds much more interesting! Here’s the sus example I think you mentioned (on Ab7)

    4 x 4 3 2 x
    5 x 5 4 2 x (or was it 5 x 5 3 2? Same logic either way)

    you can hopefully see the logic. here’s another sort of thing:

    4 x 4 5 3
    3 x 3 4 4
    2 x 2 3 1
    1 x 1 2 3

    Hopefully you can see how Peter combines chromatic movement of simple shell style voicings with top lines to make these great sounding combinations. But the movement is the important thing. Like he doesn’t see:

    Bb G7 Cm7 F7

    for instance, he sees like:

    Bb —> F7

    or even just (as we want to stay off the I chord)

    ———-> F7

    so he uses that chromatic move into F7 to sub in for a 1-6-2-5 in Rhythm
    Changes for instance. As long as he supports the melody and is listening it all works.

    Reg’s phrase ‘tonal targets’ makes sense here.

    And

    A lot of it boils down to tritone subs as well. Like that thing Ab9sus4 A9 (or A7b9) can obviously be understood as a simple way of introducing motion to an Ab7 type chord. Ab7 - Eb7 - Ab7... Of course the thing that ties it together is the Db in the melody.... that’s the thing I think that ties those sounds together so well and means peter is comfortable using much more chromatic motion in the comping than I think is normal for most players - it’s always top down....

    aside from that the thing I wanted to emphasise is that Peter’s attitude seemed more experimental and intuitive than theoretical. He was always interested in stuff that sounded good to him than understanding why it sounded good.So his approach - I think - was to take simple diatonic lines or pedal points or simple ideas and see what he could do with them.

    given most standards have simple diatonic melodies it’s clear to see how you would go about building that kind of vocabulary.

    Again thank you everybody for taking the time. I think this might be quite a good thread for any jazz beginner.

  8. #57

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    Just wanted to give an update - I discussed the topic with my guitar teacher and she acutally made a really nice video about the first chorus, analyzing everything that is going on. It's a really good video!


  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_lu
    Just wanted to give an update - I discussed the topic with my guitar teacher and she acutally made a really nice video about the first chorus, analyzing everything that is going on. It's a really good video!

    Great job ad interesting to listen to...

    .. to be honest I think that Peter mostly think of all that as a sort of 'thick melody'... the more I hear him the more I feel like his motion is mostly the matter of his conviction... it is more about feel of time, breath than particular chords or vicing choices...
    with some reasonable limitation he could play almost any chords sometimes and it would have been convincing.

    But it is still very interesting to follow this analysis no matter if Peter would have aplied it or not. Things to learn from.

    thank you!

  10. #59

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    A friend of mine (Alison Neale, a very fine altoist in the Paul Desmond tradition) recently recorded an album with Peter. This bit of review made me laugh:

    On this occasion her companions are Dave Green and Steve Brown on bass and drums respectively, and the celebrated New York guitarist Peter Bernstein, who appears to have recorded with everyone. His technique is amazing, using a seamless combination of single-line and chordal playing, and his harmonic ingenuity is endless.
    In fact it gets a bit wearing after a while; an occasional touch of the simple and obvious wouldn’t have gone amiss.

    Ouch!

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Great job ad interesting to listen to...

    .. to be honest I think that Peter mostly think of all that as a sort of 'thick melody'... the more I hear him the more I feel like his motion is mostly the matter of his conviction... it is more about feel of time, breath than particular chords or vicing choices...
    with some reasonable limitation he could play almost any chords sometimes and it would have been convincing.

    But it is still very interesting to follow this analysis no matter if Peter would have aplied it or not. Things to learn from.

    thank you!

    Cool! Nice to hear. Leave a like and a follow if you like the video. She does all sort of really useful, well explained and well edited jazz guitar related content.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    A friend of mine (Alison Neale, a very fine altoist in the Paul Desmond tradition) recently recorded an album with Peter. This bit of review made me laugh:

    On this occasion her companions are Dave Green and Steve Brown on bass and drums respectively, and the celebrated New York guitarist Peter Bernstein, who appears to have recorded with everyone. His technique is amazing, using a seamless combination of single-line and chordal playing, and his harmonic ingenuity is endless.
    In fact it gets a bit wearing after a while; an occasional touch of the simple and obvious wouldn’t have gone amiss.

    Ouch!
    "simple and obvious" - sounds like the reviewer would enjoy my playing.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    A friend of mine (Alison Neale, a very fine altoist in the Paul Desmond tradition) recently recorded an album with Peter. This bit of review made me laugh:

    On this occasion her companions are Dave Green and Steve Brown on bass and drums respectively, and the celebrated New York guitarist Peter Bernstein, who appears to have recorded with everyone. His technique is amazing, using a seamless combination of single-line and chordal playing, and his harmonic ingenuity is endless.
    In fact it gets a bit wearing after a while; an occasional touch of the simple and obvious wouldn’t have gone amiss.

    Ouch!
    Haha...
    Tommy Emmanuel spoiled them all..

    I would like to se ethat guy somewhere on late night jam in Minton's in 40's and would like to see what would have been with him after he would approach someone like.. like Max Roach saying: Gentlemen, could please bring in a touch of the simple an dobvious in your in all other aspects outstanding performance...
    I am sure the touch would follow immidiately .. and it would be simple and obvious.

  14. #63

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    I feel like a broken record, but give this a listen. Basic I IV V and it sure sounds jazzy and bluesy to me.


  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_lu
    Cool! Nice to hear. Leave a like and a follow if you like the video. She does all sort of really useful, well explained and well edited jazz guitar related content.
    She deserves more subscribers

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Haha...
    Tommy Emmanuel spoiled them all..

    I would like to se ethat guy somewhere on late night jam in Minton's in 40's and would like to see what would have been with him after he would approach someone like.. like Max Roach saying: Gentlemen, could please bring in a touch of the simple an dobvious in your in all other aspects outstanding performance...
    I am sure the touch would follow immidiately .. and it would be simple and obvious.
    Yep. Sounds about right....

    I have many fears about music - but one of the biggest is that I am in fact the sort of person who wouldn't have actually liked bop back in the 50's....

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I feel like a broken record, but give this a listen. Basic I IV V and it sure sounds jazzy and bluesy to me.

    Beautiful! I am a big Jennings fan and I think he is anything but cliché (for a guitar player at least) - I think he is very unique. Maybe basic if you disect his playing in little pieces, but thrown together he is super soulful and anything but predictable (looked at in context of his style).

    But I understand the point you are trying to make.

  18. #67

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    I was speaking to the comping, he's probably my favorite jazz guitarist since his style is so approachable.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by maya
    I am looking for good examples of jazz blues comping to transcribe.

    I hope I can find some songs with just guitar and vocal or two guitars or guitar and bass so that it could be easier for me to hear the guitar as I am a beginner.

    Can you please suggest something for me?

    Thanks so much for your help and for all the great things that I find in this forum.
    1) Guitar and Vocals: Pass/Fitzgerald, Tuck/Patti Andress
    2) Two guitars: Ellis/Pass, Taylor/Emmanuel, Lagrene/Luc
    3) Guitar and bass: Pass/Pedersen, Jimmy Rainey (Aebersold), Burrell, Benson etc

    Don't forget, jazz only plays tribute to the blues so rhythmically comping won't be much different to jazz. You could also check out some of the great jazz organ players such as Jimmy Smith and Joey de Francesco.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    On this occasion her companions are Dave Green and Steve Brown on bass and drums respectively, and the celebrated New York guitarist Peter Bernstein, who appears to have recorded with everyone. His technique is amazing, using a seamless combination of single-line and chordal playing, and his harmonic ingenuity is endless.
    In fact it gets a bit wearing after a while; an occasional touch of the simple and obvious wouldn’t have gone amiss.

    Ouch!
    Isn't this why Jazz is dead?

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes
    Isn't this why Jazz is dead?
    It is because the audience is deaf.

  22. #71

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    I think a lot of people only hear harsh unapproachable jazz, free jazz, extreme fusion, very out there stuff and they dismiss all jazz because of it.

    I can't really get into some bebop because I swear after a few choruses it sounds like the sax runs out of ideas, squawks as high and loud as he can and then mashes the buttons.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I think a lot of people only hear harsh unapproachable jazz, free jazz, extreme fusion, very out there stuff and they dismiss all jazz because of it.

    I can't really get into some bebop because I swear after a few choruses it sounds like the sax runs out of ideas, squawks as high and loud as he can and then mashes the buttons.
    I believe you

    But I also want people to believe me when I say that I love and understand something it is not that I am just trying to pretend smart.

    Jazz at least has pop music origins and the claim for oversophoticaton can be legitimate from that perspective.

    In classical it is much worse: under disguise of a "sweet melody" or " pure beauty" musicians produce and audience consumes tons of serious profound music that they just do not understand...


    Actually we should accept that jazz got on another level after Trane, Mingus...
    Even Wes sessions may be challenging for the general audience sometimes.

    I guess none here has problem with digging Wes but there are people who can find it not so simple and obvious.
    Should we take their consideration in account?
    George Benson does take it in consideration too much... well he treats it as pure showbiz. Lucky we are that he has enough of natural gift to stay more or less creative.

    But someone like Peter would never do that and none should ask him to do that until there is at least one guy who says: i love and understand this.


    Jazz players imho should forget about marketable business.
    Their music became Art.
    And Art has always been supported not marketed (for rare exceptions).
    I guess it is hard to accept because jazz came from commercial music in the much business oriented country.

    You may say it is not related to the issue but it is.
    Audience is also used to pay for light or relatively light entertainment in that area.
    They feel like they have the right to ask it to be easier.

    But they don't.

    One of the greatest natural features of jazz are freedom and risk for me. It is the only style I know where these ideas have literal incarnation in musical language and approach.
    If one prefers to stay locked in pleasant and secured area and take mo risk it is up to him... some times I love it too. We are all human.
    But essentially jazz should keep freedom and take risks and audiences should be ready to follow.

  24. #73

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    I think you're wrong about the audiences not having the right to want things to be easier. They can always walk out the door, not show up and not listen. Also, I personally think recorded music is a product. Live performance is the art, but if you can't snag them with the product, they won't come to the show. So musicians (I mean all genres here) need to be mindful of the audience or there won't be one.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I think you're wrong about the audiences not having the right to want things to be easier. They can always walk out the door, not show up and not listen. Also, I personally think recorded music is a product. Live performance is the art, but if you can't snag them with the product, they won't come to the show. So musicians (I mean all genres here) need to be mindful of the audience or there won't be one.
    I disagree.
    You should not disrespect the audience but you should not change your artistic atitude because of their demands.

    They are free to walk out.

    You should do it the way you think it is the best for the music - for your purposes in music.

    And as you say the word 'product' - you again move it in the conception of sales and market.
    I already explained in my post that I thing it is wrong.

    This conception created the idea of 'professionalism' in negative sense.
    In case music does not bring money you can always find another job to earn, I know quite a few very good musicians who conciously stepped out of the professional world to avoid this situation.

    Not everthing is regulated by market relationship. Not all that is good - pays and sells good.

    Why should one accept it?
    (Sometimes I think in the US it is taken for granted too much (dollar as universal currency of everything including beauty, spirituality, morality).

    Art is one of the areas that should be supported without any expections of monetary profit.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I think a lot of people only hear harsh unapproachable jazz, free jazz, extreme fusion, very out there stuff and they dismiss all jazz because of it.

    I can't really get into some bebop because I swear after a few choruses it sounds like the sax runs out of ideas, squawks as high and loud as he can and then mashes the
    buttons.
    All I can say is you must have been listening to the wrong players lol

    I don’t think Peter Bernstein quite qualifies as ‘harsh unapproachable jazz’; but there is a bitter quality to his sound sometimes that makes it a million times more lovely to me than sacharrine ‘beauty‘; something he shares with Monk who is a big influence. I can understand if some people don’t like that.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-09-2020 at 01:41 PM.

  27. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    A friend of mine (Alison Neale, a very fine altoist in the Paul Desmond tradition) recently recorded an album with Peter. This bit of review made me laugh:

    On this occasion her companions are Dave Green and Steve Brown on bass and drums respectively, and the celebrated New York guitarist Peter Bernstein, who appears to have recorded with everyone. His technique is amazing, using a seamless combination of single-line and chordal playing, and his harmonic ingenuity is endless.
    In fact it gets a bit wearing after a while; an occasional touch of the simple and obvious wouldn’t have gone amiss.

    Ouch!
    The second dumbest piece of music criticism I've ever read. The dumbest was this review, specifically this quote:

    Metheny, though he knows his way around the jazz guitar language and is a fertile soloist, sounded out of place in serious swinging music, as if he were a visitor to a foreign land, having taken a few Berlitz courses.
    I was at this concert. The seat next to me was roped off, with a card noting it was reserved for this critic. The rope remained intact and the seat remained empty for the entire performance. The cynic in me wonders what the reviewer you quote had actually listened to (if anything).

    John
    Last edited by John A.; 12-09-2020 at 04:03 PM.

  28. #77

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  29. #78

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    Thought I would try and give some simple advice...

    Most approach blues and just comping in general from ... working and organizing from the Roots.

    I also approach blues and comping in general from... working and organizing from.... the Lead Line or melody created on top of chords.

    So just like we create comping parts.... created from the chords, based on the Roots. We embellish, add, expand, create relationships, etc...

    You can also use the lead line created on top, a comping melody or counter melody as the harmonic reference for creating comping parts. (a different or secondary level for reference)

    It's an expanded way to organize how one works with Harmony. Instead of always using the "roots" or basic changes as the harmonic source for playing....Expanded Tonal Targets based on melodic licks.

    Think of the 60's approach of using 4ths or quartal comping sound, your expanding the organization of creating voicings....the chords. The approach is different, but the concept is similar, your expanding or changing where the chords are created from.

    Most enjoy using and developing from the melody, basic M101 improv approach, right. WE embellish and create from the melody etc... So using short melodic phrases or Licks that imply a Harmonic sound, is basically the same thing. And with Blues.... the licks are endless. And we all already have them embedded in our heads etc...

    As with most shit.... when you actually start using, it works much easier, faster and you can repeat with organization.
    You can use trial and error, theory or whatever you choose.

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    The second dumbest piece of music criticism I've ever read. The dumbest was this review, specifically this quote:



    I was at this concert. The seat next to me was roped off, with a card noting it was reserved for this critic. The rope remained intact and the seat remained empty for the entire performance. The cynic in me wonders what the reviewer you quote had actually listened to (if anything).

    John
    Or the prominent UK critic who described Brad Mehldau as having ‘negligible jazz feel.’

  31. #80

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    I'd be careful not to overthink it. Joe Pass blues will give you plenty of food for thought as far as chords. Benson has interesting voicings.
    The rhythms will just happen on it's own.
    There's a video right here on the website of Benson doing jazz blues with a tap dancer. It's really good. Here it is;