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  1. #1

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    So I've been learning to play Autumn Leaves lately, but tonight I decided to take a break from playing and sit down and analyze the chord progressions within the song. I have noticed that the song starts out with a standard 2-5-1 chord progression of A7-Dm7-Gmaj7 (if you're in the key of G Major).

    Then comes a C Major 7 chord, (not sure how that logically fits in), but then it goes into a F#m7b5-B7-Em7, which happens to be a 2-5-1 in the key of Em.

    The remainder bounces back and forth between 2-5-1s in the key of G Major, and E minor.

    I always hear about how the 2-5-1 progression is so common, but is it common for tunes to go between 2-5-1 in the major key, but then also use 2-5-1s in the natural minor key during the same song?

    And finally, how do you figure out which key the song is in for sure? GM or Em??

    Just looking for any advice that anyone can help me with.

    Here is the attached lead sheet of Autumn Leaves. Above the written chords I wrote in the chord positions in the GMajor scale.

    Questions about Autumn Leaves chord progressions-autumn-leaves-chords-jpg

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  3. #2

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    I think your analysis is good.

    This song is sometimes analyzed as you did, two keys G and Em. Sometimes it's analyzed as all being in Em. I think of it as all being in Em because that's how my ear hears it, I don't hear a point of resolution on the G, I hear the resolution on Em. In addition, if I stop at any point in the song and sing/scat a scale or phrase and ending on what sounds to me to be the tonic I always end up on E.

    For me it's pretty academic though, I don't think either way of analyzing it changes the way I play it.

  4. #3

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    Thanks fep,

    What I find interesting is that it goes from 251s in the major key, then if you look at the natural minor key of Em, it uses a 251 from that key as well.

    Being new to jazz, I just thought the 251 was a progression used in major keys, but are they common in minor keys as well?

    I know learning more tunes will answer my own question, but I'm just thinking out lout here

  5. #4

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    The CMa7 is the IV of G Major. G Major is the relative major of E minor. As mention before some look/hear the song in one key other two, but bottom line being related keys the notes are the same. So your pool notes is simple the hard part is picking the right notes at the right times.

    In Jazz songs changing keys is something that goes all on all the time.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonB

    I always hear about how the 2-5-1 progression is so common, but is it common for tunes to go between 2-5-1 in the major key, but then also use 2-5-1s in the natural minor key during the same song?
    Yes. Think of ii V I as jazz's way of getting somewhere, and that "somewhere" doesn't actually have to to be the I of the key.

    For example, the first nine bars of "There Will Never Be Another You" (transposed to the key of C to make discussion clearer) :

    C - - - | - - - - |Bm7b5 - E7 - |

    Am7 - - - |- - - - |Gm7 - C7 - | F - - -

    It is in the key of C, then there is a ii V to the vi chord, then a ii V to the IV chord. This is the bread and butter of standard jazz harmony, getting to new tonal areas by using ii Vs as transitions.

    I think it's not jumping too far ahead to say that you can often alter a chord progression by adding in ii Vs to precede your target chords.

    For example, say you have the chord progression

    C - - - | - - - - |F - - - |G7 - - -

    You could add in a ii V to F before you arrive at the F chord:

    C - - - | Gm7 - C7 - |F - - - |G7 - - -

    This technique often "works" regardless of how the new ii V relates to the key center...but attention has to be paid to how the new chords react with the melody of the tune.

    If you have this chord progression

    Cm7 - - - | - - - - |Abmaj7 - - - |G7 - - -

    You could add in a ii V to Abmaj7 before the Abmaj7 chord:

    Cm7 - - - | Bbm7 - Eb7 - |Abmaj7 - - - |G7 - - -

    To add more movement to this last bar, you could also turn the V7 chord, G7, into a ii V progression to lead back to Cm:

    Cm7 - - - | Bbm7 - Eb7 - |Abmaj7 - - - |Dm7b5 - G7 - |

    And this is the harmony for the tune "Sunny."

  7. #6

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    Thanks guys! Very helpful.

  8. #7

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    Good Job! For further clarity I would express the changes as:

    | ii-7 | V7 | IM7 | IVM7 | vii-7b5 | III7 | vi | o/o || III7 | vi | o/o | vii-7b5 | III7b9 | vi | o/o | ii-7 | V7 | IM7 ||

  9. #8

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    My guitar teacher provided a similar explanation to me as the OP. He descibed to me as looking at it as blocks of 2-5-1 progressions within a song. He jumped through the real book and showed me other songs that had multiple 2-5-1 blocks like this. When/why/how it works is still over my head.

    He said when you first look at the song it appears to be voiced in G but that when you look on the final 1 of the progression is an Em so many would view the song as being in Em. With that, G and Em are modes of each other so it really becomes a discussion of tonal centers and what you play vs someone else vs the melody. It seems to be very much an [ah-ha/all of the above] song to us just learning jazz which might be why its such a popular starting point in Jazz academics.


    I have played guitar for a long time but have only studied Jazz since 2012 so I am very much a novice here quoting (and hopefully not misquoting) my teacher. The approach may be geared to my current comprehension level.
    Last edited by shawntp; 01-14-2013 at 01:13 PM.

  10. #9

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    I've heard it's possible to ignore the Cmaj7 chord in bar IV, whether improvising or comping. Is this true?

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonB
    ... how do you figure out which key the song is in for sure? GM or Em?? ...
    Although not as reliable as fep's approach, a good first check is to look at where the song ends, e.g., GM or Em. Autumn leaves ends on Em.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmz
    I've heard it's possible to ignore the Cmaj7 chord in bar IV, whether improvising or comping. Is this true?
    It's very common to follow a IMaj7 with the IVMaj7 (GMaj7 to CMaj7 in A.L.). This is just the circle of fifths, after all. Playing over that CMaj7, the basic thing to do is stay in G major (call it C Lydian if you wish) rather than changing to C major. Staying in G major is not the same as "ignoring CMaj7" -- you could emphasize chord tones for example (which is what the melody does). Also, the next chord, F#minb5, continues the circle of fifths, so going to it from CMaj7 is a stronger transition than going from GMaj7.

    Conclusion: you can ignore the CMaj7, but the circle of fifths motion (from GMaj7 and to F#min7b5) means you miss out twice when you simplify things.

  13. #12

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    Not sure if there is a correct answer but my teacher talked about discrepancies he has seen after the G maj 7 that is held later in the song. In the Hal Leonard Real Book the initial progression is repeated twice and it has the G maj 7 to C maj 7 change. It seems important to the way the song steps down through the chords. The melody hits a certain note and then the chord progression changing under the held note of the melody is sort of important to the song.

    Talking about the chords under:
    ... "Drift by the Window"
    ... "The Summer Kisses"

    After the initial two passes above the chord progressions reverses and starts on the Em 2-5-1 and then moves to the G major 2-5-1. In this section of the sung under the line:
    ... "Old Winters Song" is where I think you see people hold the G man 7 for two bars. It is written this way in the Hal Leonard book but my teacher pointed out that in other versions you might not see that and could see the C maj 7. The melody in this spot is different than in the beginning so I think the use of the G man 7 for two bars lines up with the Em used in the previous 4 bar set to give this section of the song its different feel and melody.

    To me it helps a little seeing both ways in the same song ...to create the distinctiveness of the two separate parts to this song.
    Last edited by shawntp; 01-14-2013 at 04:19 PM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmz
    I've heard it's possible to ignore the Cmaj7 chord in bar IV, whether improvising or comping. Is this true?

    What would that mean and what would be the benefit?

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmz
    I've heard it's possible to ignore the Cmaj7 chord in bar IV, whether improvising or comping. Is this true?
    What you're going to rest for that bar?

    If you use the two key view then the CMa7 would be the pivot chord between keys it the IV in one key and vi in the other.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonB
    Thanks fep,

    What I find interesting is that it goes from 251s in the major key, then if you look at the natural minor key of Em, it uses a 251 from that key as well.

    Being new to jazz, I just thought the 251 was a progression used in major keys, but are they common in minor keys as well?
    Absolutely. The way to spot the difference (when looking at chord charts) is to look for alterations:

    Dm7-G7 = ii-V in C major
    Dm7b5-G7b9 = ii-V in C minor

    A minor key ii chord will almost always (95+% of the time?) be a m7b5 (half-dim). The minor key V will be either a 7b9, 7#9, or "7alt", which can translate as various things: 7#5#9, 7b5b9, 7b5#9, 7#5b9, 13b9, 7b13, etc.
    Even when the chart just says plain "7", you can usually play it as altered.

    There are various scale options for these "altered dominants", but always look at the voice-leading between the chords either side first. (Remember a 7 chord with any kind of 9th has 5 notes already, and maybe that's enough to improvise with? )

    ii-Vs don't always have to resolve to their respective "I" chord. You can have strings of ii-Vs implying different keys.

    ii-Vs can also be "secondary". Eg, in key of C, you could have F#m7b5-B7b9 leading to Em. They would be regarded as ii and V of Em (the iii chord), "secondary supertonic", and "secondary dominant" - analysed as "ii/iii" and "V/iii". Happens all the time in jazz. (See Jake's examples )

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    Absolutely. The way to spot the difference (when looking at chord charts) is to look for alterations:

    Dm7-G7 = ii-V in C major
    Dm7b5-G7b9 = ii-V in C minor
    Jon, pardon my ignorance, but if I were to play a ii-V in the key of C minor, wouldn't that be F - Bb?

    I guess my question is if I'm playing the "Dm7b5-G7b9 = ii-V in C minor" as you say, wouldn't I still be playing chords with the roots in scale of C major?

    Once again, just trying to make sure I understand.

    Thanks!

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonB
    I guess my question is if I'm playing the "Dm7b5-G7b9 = ii-V in C minor" as you say, wouldn't I still be playing chords with the roots in scale of C major?
    You'd be going to the parallel minor: ii-7b5 > V7b9. Chord roots would be D and G, the ii and V of C minor, respectively.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrandonB
    Jon, pardon my ignorance, but if I were to play a ii-V in the key of C minor, wouldn't that be F - Bb?

    I guess my question is if I'm playing the "Dm7b5-G7b9 = ii-V in C minor" as you say, wouldn't I still be playing chords with the roots in scale of C major?
    The roots are the same, yes, but then the tonic is the same note too! (It's the rest of the scale that's different.)
    IOW, chord function numerals are always counted from the keynote (tonic).
    In C minor, keynote is C, so:
    Cm = i
    Ddim(m7b5) = ii
    Eb = III (or bIII)
    Fm = iv
    G = V (C harmonic minor)
    Ab = VI (or bVI)
    Bb = VII (or bVII)
    Bdim(dim7) = vii (C harmonic minor)

    BTW, Dm7b5 is Fm/D, so is quite similar to the iv chord.

    Dm7-G7 would sound like a ii-V in C major, but when you have the b5 on the Dm (and maybe the same note, Ab, as a b9 on G7 too) that signals us to expect a C minor tonic.
    However, it's quite common in jazz to substitute a minor ii-V in a major key. You might sometimes see Dm7b5-G7b9 resolving to C major (which makes a kind of sweet surprise). (Cole Porter liked doing this.)

    Fm-Bb would be ii-V in Eb major - different key!
    Dm7b5 is also in Eb major, of course, as vii chord, and can be used to resolve directly to Eb. But you almost never see this in jazz. (I don't think I've ever seen a vii-I cadence in a major key in jazz, although it's part of classical theory.)
    Whenever you see a m7b5 chord, you can pretty safely assume it's a ii chord in a minor key.

    vii-i cadences do occur quite often in minor keys. The vii chord in a minor key is a dim7, one crucial note different from a m7b5.
    Eg, Bdim7 (B-D-F-Ab) will resolve well to Cm (and often does). And sometimes to C major.
    However, Bm7b5 (B-D-F-A), vii chord in C major, is much more likely to be found going to E7 and then Am.
    Last edited by JonR; 01-15-2013 at 03:12 PM.

  20. #19

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    New to the message board...Hello everyone!

    To Brandon and any other "new guys to jazz"...what helped me understand jazz a bit easier was to not get caught up analyzing a song in one key and instead focus on the tonal centers (meaning II-V-I's or sometimes just II-V's). More often than not, jazz tunes will shift tonal centers so many times that it gets to be too confusing to analyze every chord in one key. Take "Stella By Starlight" for example. It's probably transcribed in Bb in your real book but go ahead and try to analyze that song in one key. It can be very frustrating and confusing. Instead, if you look at that song as having various tonal centers (II-V-I's or just II-V's) joined by connecting chords it makes it a lot easier to think about.

    So back to "Autumn Leaves"...I would think of the first few bars as II-V-I in G major and a II-V-I in E minor with a Cmaj7 in between...which I consider a pivot chord (a pivot chord is a chord that exists in two keys and is used to modulate to a new key) or a connecting chord that gets you from one area of tonal interest to the next. So to me, Cmaj7 is both a IV chord in G major and a VI chord in E minor. The rest of the song is just II-V-I's in both G major and E minor.

    I know most of this was already said in the other posts but I'm just saying if you want to keep analyzing jazz tunes, the quicker you start thinking of them in this fashion, the simpler your life will be...and hopefully more enjoyable jazz will become.

    Hope that helps!

    -Glenn

  21. #20

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    The C Maj7 is the IV chord in the key of G. This is a common harmonic device in jazz. G major and E minor are related, and it is tempting to treat the song as being all in G. However, that would be boring and a mistake as both II V Is offer the opportunity to explore different sounds. It's a great starter tune and a good tune to return to in order to measure your development and progress. Your approach to it in ten years will probably be radically different.

  22. #21

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    I prefer to play it in Gminor

  23. #22

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    Hello,

    excuse me for resurrecting this thread, but I'm currently working on this song and I didn't want to start a new thread. For some context, I'm beginner with very little theoretical background, so this might be a bit bumpy

    There are so many contradicting analysis of this relatively song online that it's really hard to understand what is "right".

    To me, this song - the melody at least - sound to be in Em. So why wouldn't the first part be simply iv-VII-III, transition VI, followed by iidim-V(??)-I. The only chord which sticks out is B7 which should be Bmin7 to fit Em melodic scale. Unless that part alone is in Em harmonic.

    But to simplify, why would one say this is "2-5-1" in G followed by "2-5-1" in Em, versus "4-7-3" followed by "2-5-1", both in Em?

    If I look just at the basses, the first part (in solfa) is "FA-TE-ME", followed by "RE-SO-DO". Both phrases have all tones perfect fourth apart, but the feeling is different. I hear it as "FA-TE-ME?"... "RE-SO-DO!" Why would one say that the first part is in G major only to have "RE-SO-DO" in both parts?

    Thanks :-)

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by der_jk
    There are so many contradicting analysis of this relatively song online that it's really hard to understand what is "right".
    You said it :-)

    (Which puts anything I say into doubt!)

    Ok, this is what I'd say. Just play it. Don't bother tearing it apart intellectually and reducing it to confusing symbols and hieroglyphics. How's that going to help you play it? It's music, not algebra.

    There's the tune. It's really simple, one part's in G and the other's in Em. No problem at all. Major scale over the major, harmonic minor over the minor. Then you can put your subs in, a bit of altered stuff, whatever you know.

    Don't go beyond what you know. Play it according to your capacity. Keep it simple and don't go complicating it till you're quite sure what you're doing.

    In the end it's whether it sounds any good, right? That's all.

    end of lecture :-)

  25. #24

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  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by der_jk
    But to simplify, why would one say this is "2-5-1" in G followed by "2-5-1" in Em, versus "4-7-3" followed by "2-5-1", both in Em?
    Because it sounds, looks like, and functions like a classic sub dominant–dominant–tonic progression in major. You could re-spell everything as if it's Dorianas well, but the ear is not going to hear it that way just because you CALL it that.

    Honestly you can call it whatever . A lot of players will label the chords in all major or minor for practicality and simplicity, but if you're talking about FUNCTION, the 251 in major and minor is a very valid and standard way of analyzing it.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-21-2017 at 07:17 PM.