Maj7b5 chord

**Melodic Dreamer** · 12-20-2012, 08:05 PM

Hey guys, I'm trying to really get this chord down. I was curious if anyone had any examples of it being used in a standard tune? I'm trying to find all of it's functions and where to use it.

**RyanM** · 12-20-2012, 08:38 PM

#11

**jovialspoon** · 12-20-2012, 09:09 PM

Look for it in Chick Corea's "Spain". He and Wayne Shorter often use it in their compositions. I might be mistaken, but I think you'll see it in Shorter's "Footprints".

**fep** · 12-20-2012, 09:09 PM

How Insensitive

12th measure, when you consider the melody that Ebmaj7 is really a Ebmaj7#11

29th measuse, when you consider the melody that Bbmaj7 is really a Bbmaj7#11

In both those cases you can play the maj7#11 chords.

______________

Anytime you have a IVmaj7 there is a chance a IVmaj7#11 will work. Try is out and let your ear decide. Same can be said of the bVImaj7.

**randalljazz** · 12-21-2012, 06:11 AM

bill evans walkin' up !!!

**Gerard45** · 12-21-2012, 07:15 AM

Mancini's "Slow Hot Wind" (9th measure), | Bbmaj7 BbMaj7#11 |

**oilywrag** · 12-21-2012, 03:12 PM

"Time Remembered" By Bill Evans.. great ballad

Tom...

**Double 07** · 12-21-2012, 06:03 PM

Phase Dance

**jtizzle** · 12-21-2012, 07:21 PM

I'm pretty sure almost all except one of the major chords in Inner Urge are all #11

**jseaberry** · 12-22-2012, 01:55 AM

The first chord in Inner Urge, F#mi7b5, is the same as Cma7b5, so the only non-major 7b5 is the Bb7 near the end.

**jasaco** · 12-22-2012, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by jseaberry

The first chord in Inner Urge, F#mi7b5, is the same as Cma7b5...

F#m7b5 = F# A C E

CMaj7b5 = C E Gb (F#) B

Not same; A vs B.

**jtizzle** · 12-22-2012, 04:15 AM

Just one note difference, and same parent scale. You can really think of it as CMaj13(#11) to get technical. I prefer to think of it as what it is though, I like thinking of the half-step movement, which sounds cool.

**JanLF** · 12-22-2012, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by jtizzle

Just one note difference, and same parent scale. You can really think of it as CMaj13(#11) to get technical. I prefer to think of it as what it is though, I like thinking of the half-step movement, which sounds cool.

Hi, not to make this a thread about Inner Urge, but the scale that fits really well over that F#-7(b5) is A melodic minor/ F#locrian9/C lydian augmented. So Cmaj7#11 - nah, don't think so :-)

**jseaberry** · 12-22-2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by jasaco

F#m7b5 = F# A C E

CMaj7b5 = C E Gb (F#) B

Not same; A vs B.

Try it and see if it sounds right. I bet it does, but your ears rule.

**jseaberry** · 12-22-2012, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by JanLF

Hi, not to make this a thread about Inner Urge, but the scale that fits really well over that F#-7(b5) is A melodic minor/ F#locrian9/C lydian augmented. So Cmaj7#11 - nah, don't think so :-)

OK, then, I'm wrong; not the first nor last time.

**JanLF** · 12-22-2012, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by jseaberry

OK, then, I'm wrong; not the first nor last time.

😊 Me neither!

**JakeAcci** · 12-22-2012, 02:51 PM

I think of m7b5 chords and maj7#11 (or maj7b5, whichever) chords as being in the same family, the same general sound, given some technicalities

F#m7b5 = F# A C E

Cmaj7 with a #11 instead of a natural fifth = C E F# B

so we have F# A C E and F# B C E

Many notes that are commonly voiced on each chord type are equally common for both.

The A is the b3 of F#m7b5 and the 13 of Cmaj7

The B is the 7 of Cma7 and the 11 of F#m7b5

G# is the natural 9 of F#m7b5 and the #5 of Cmaj7. In both cases you could view the most conventional parent scale as A melodic minor. Both a natural 9th on m7b5 and a #5 on maj7(#11) are characteristic pitches of their respective melodic minor modes.

D is the 9th of Cma7 and the b6 of F#m7b5

On paper, G might seem to be the least congruent note as it's the fifth of C but the b9 of F#m7b5, not generally thought of as a conventional tension for m7b5. However, it can easily be part of a sequence from the locrian mode, and I think McCoy Tyner's comping on Inner Urge has a bit of that, last time I checked. Both F# locrian and C lydian are within the same key center.

**JakeAcci** · 12-22-2012, 02:53 PM

To add, a nice pitch collection for both/either, that I use quite a bit, is:

F# A B C E

**JanLF** · 12-22-2012, 05:26 PM

Hi,

well I know and understand everything you say JakeAcci

To my ears (and also speaking in a modal context as here) there's no way I can get a -7(b5) chord to sound anything like a lydian chord - sorry

. I know perfectly well everything you say but the main difference here is the key center and modally
for 4 bars.

Enough from me in destroying this thread though. I apologize

**timscarey** · 12-23-2012, 04:34 AM

This might be different than all of the other posts, but personally I consider a major 7 flat five chord to be very different from a sharp eleven type major chord.

The difference being that the major seven flat five will often imply a sharp five in the scale. Or at least leave the option open.

I would also add that you will not find these chords in standard tunes. You will find lydian major chords all over the place. The sharp eleven is a very common melodic tone on major seven type chords and has been for hundreds of years. However, the lydian augmented sound is pretty modern and non found in popular music of any era.

The idea being that a major 7 flat five implies a possible lydian augmented mode, which is different from a major seven sharp eleven (which implies a natural 5th). The latter being far more common.

**randalljazz** · 12-23-2012, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

I think of m7b5 chords and maj7#11 (or maj7b5, whichever) chords as being in the same family, the same general sound, given some technicalities

F#m7b5 = F# A C E

Cmaj7 with a #11 instead of a natural fifth = C E F# B

so we have F# A C E and F# B C E

Many notes that are commonly voiced on each chord type are equally common for both.

The A is the b3 of F#m7b5 and the 13 of Cmaj7

The B is the 7 of Cma7 and the 11 of F#m7b5

G# is the natural 9 of F#m7b5 and the #5 of Cmaj7. In both cases you could view the most conventional parent scale as A melodic minor. Both a natural 9th on m7b5 and a #5 on maj7(#11) are characteristic pitches of their respective melodic minor modes.

D is the 9th of Cma7 and the b6 of F#m7b5

On paper, G might seem to be the least congruent note as it's the fifth of C but the b9 of F#m7b5, not generally thought of as a conventional tension for m7b5. However, it can easily be part of a sequence from the locrian mode, and I think McCoy Tyner's comping on Inner Urge has a bit of that, last time I checked. Both F# locrian and C lydian are within the same key center.

interesting discussion about joe's note choices:

Joe Henderson's Inner Urge - The Gear Page

**Vladan** · 12-23-2012, 07:13 AM

To me, it has kind of Gsus vibe, trying to resolve to G7

**Larry Feldman** · 12-25-2012, 09:04 PM

First chord of Blue in Green

**docbop** · 12-25-2012, 11:07 PM

Maj7b5 is one of the magic chords in that you can change the bass note and it has 12 interesting sounding voicings. I first got into them from John Albaugh and Sid Jacobs at GIT. Also the Maj7#5 is another.

**edh** · 12-26-2012, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by docbop

Maj7b5 is one of the magic chords in that you can change the bass note and it has 12 interesting sounding voicings. I first got into them from John Albaugh and Sid Jacobs at GIT. Also the Maj7#5 is another.

Docbop, could you expand on this? Or point me in a direction where I could find some information on this.

Thanks.