Comping Solo

[Kojo27]

Since it can't really be done solo (no lead player or singer to react to), is it even possible really to practice comping by yourself? (Not talking about four-to-the-bar or other "set" rhythms - talking "piano" style stuff.)

If it is possible, any tips on how to get better without another player?


kj

[Vladan]

You could imagine one, or play over recording?

[Kojo27]

You could imagine one, or play over recording?

I suppose so, but if it's the sparse, "piano" comping - mostly on the higher strings - what you play is dictated by what everybody else plays. You comp in response. It's an interaction, similar to a conversation. How can you have a real conversation by yourself? You could "imagine" what another person said and then "respond" -- but it wouldn't be a *real* conversation. Make sense?

Same thing for comping in this style. You never know what another person will play, so it seems impossible, to me, to become very good at it, outside a group. I hope I'm wrong!

[SearchForMeaning]

It never hurts to pick out your tonal areas and play harmonized scale fragments, with different voices on top, different root movements and inversions on the bottom. When you can hear yourself making a chord solo type harmony line when you practice, that proficiency can prove to be useful in listening to what the soloist is doing. Practice with space and direction. It'll be helpful in thinking in phrases, and that's something I've found works nicely with a soloist.
Y'know listen to some Jim Hall. Often he'll play a phrase and comp with himself, chordal support that really supports. If you're into Django's music, this might not be so helpful though...

[Kojo27]

It never hurts to pick out your tonal areas and play harmonized scale fragments, with different voices on top, different root movements and inversions on the bottom. When you can hear yourself making a chord solo type harmony line when you practice, that proficiency can prove to be useful in listening to what the soloist is doing. Practice with space and direction. It'll be helpful in thinking in phrases, and that's something I've found works nicely with a soloist.
Y'know listen to some Jim Hall. Often he'll play a phrase and comp with himself, chordal support that really supports. If you're into Django's music, this might not be so helpful though...

Thanks much - I see what you're saying.

And yeah - Jim Hall is the wizard at this stuff.

[SearchForMeaning]

Bill Frisell too, just trying to understand how much he adds just by listening, and feeling the right place to put just the right sound. He constantly acknowledges Jim Hall's influence. It's an attitude that is a part of practicing, that of being confident with a sound and listening. Yeah, you can do a whole lot on your own in this area, for sure, without another player. But if you can, do find another player you can have fun with, and work with dialogue. Playing back and forth, erasing the line between who's soloist and who's laying down the chords. All these approaches come together when you're doing a tune, and they're all fun to work on by themselves too.

[RyanM]

what Im going to do one of these days, is practice comping with Rollins' village vanguard album... pianoless trio, sax, bass, drums.

but you should try to find a partner to set up a weekly practice with... any instrument, any level, to practice comping with.

or maybe record yourself improvising on some tunes, leave it for a few weeks so you forget it, then use those recordings to practice...

or, sing a solo in your head while comping!

Hal Crook's How to Comp has a lot of suggestions on how to comp.

[Sphere]

You still need a vocabulary of chords, rhythms, licks etc. You should be able to make it sound good by itself, and, most importantly, lock with the rhythm section. It's not just the soloist and a comper, you are a part of the rhythm section, you need to interact with everyone and make the music groove.

[mr. beaumont]

I'd disagree it's always in response...I've heard good accompanyment push a soloist.

And you've got to have a plan...look at the form of the tune...it's just like practicing soloing really...you exhaust all possibilities and then in the moment you can just react and play...

[Kojo27]

but you should try to find a partner to set up a weekly practice with... any instrument, any level, to practice comping with.

Yep. It's time.

or maybe record yourself improvising on some tunes, leave it for a few weeks so you forget it, then use those recordings to practice...or, sing a solo in your head while comping!

Ha! Now that's creative. I like it.

You still need a vocabulary of chords, rhythms, licks etc. You should be able to make it sound good by itself, and, most importantly, lock with the rhythm section. It's not just the soloist and a comper, you are a part of the rhythm section, you need to interact with everyone and make the music groove.

I got rhythm - who could ask for anything else? eee. That's how I practice now - alone, usually with just a metronome; sometimes with a track. Record yourself comping to a metronome and it'll tell the truth on you. I'm not the worst in the world, but the real deal is only gonna come with a soloist/band, I think.

I'd disagree it's always in response...I've heard good accompanyment push a soloist.

Me, too -- not often, but it happens. When Frank Vignola and Tommy E. played the Woodsongs thing, Django tunes, there was a bunch of that happening, I think. Ditto for the bass player pushing the soloist.

And you've got to have a plan...look at the form of the tune...it's just like practicing soloing really...you exhaust all possibilities and then in the moment you can just react and play...

Well put, Mr. B. I heard/read Robben Ford saying a very similar thing. There's a guy who can comp.

[Vladan]

So, in the end you will imagine and play over recordings.

[Reg]

When I comp or approach comping I tend to think or hear my playing as lead line with comping concept. Sometimes the lead line is root motion... with pedal or very simple groove line on top.... my point you can't practice enough working with existing ideas and concepts... all the possible applications...

Take an existing concept... approach all changes with related II V's. Pretty standard jazz practice. The II V would have Harmonic implications.... there are lots of choices... anyway approach each chord change... and try and come up with a harmonic concept that will eventually enable your approach II Vs to take the place of original changes.

II Vs are one chord pattern... The point of this practice is to make you become aware of what the basic changes are really implying or what choices you have for them to imply... beyond the basic 7th chords.

You would always work with the melody also... but it's a good idea to get past melody reference and begin to be able to not get so hung up with having all the notes be able to line diatonic with chord change of the moment... Harmonic jazz practice stretches out... with different methods of reference for chord resources...

Much of this type of practice should be done alone... your part should be able to stand up on it's own... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically.

Sometime ago I use to post comping examples of standards... I'll see if I can find a few and post.... Or better yet give me three of four tunes and I'll comp through with different approaches... try and pick tunes you somewhat know, so you'll have a reference.

Reg

[SearchForMeaning]

I forgot this one, and it was really helpful. Solo one chorus, comp the next. Solo one section (A,B, etc) comp the next. Solo one phrase, comp the next. You get the idea. It will smooth out the transitions and keep yourself listening.
You do this with another person and you'll be amazed.
This is something Mick Goodrick does with his students and he's one knowledgeable source when it comes to creative tasteful comping. He calls it dovetailing.

[SearchForMeaning]

You still need a vocabulary of chords, rhythms, licks etc. You should be able to make it sound good by itself, and, most importantly, lock with the rhythm section. It's not just the soloist and a comper, you are a part of the rhythm section, you need to interact with everyone and make the music groove.

big agreement

[bako]

Record yourself playing solos with a looper or recording device.
Go back and improvise accompaniments with the solo recordings.
Keep doing new ones so that you never have a chance to memorize anything and work out parts. (that is if improvisation is the driving concern).

[Kojo27]

Record yourself playing solos with a looper or recording device.
Go back and improvise accompaniments with the solo recordings.
Keep doing new ones so that you never have a chance to memorize anything and work out parts. (that is if improvisation is the driving concern).

I'm not up to playing improvised solos yet; I know how to get there, could help someone else get there, but I'm taking a "longer way around," a way that seems more organic to me, though I might be 55 before it comes together enough to pull off in basic form. It's fun, the ride. // Besides, as you comp, you learn tunes. I can croon a little, so it's all a blast. Things have a way of working out if it's really what you want and is for the good of everyone concerned, I think.

I appreciate all these good ideas, guys. : )

[Kojo27]

Sometime ago I use to post comping examples of standards... I'll see if I can find a few and post.... Or better yet give me three of four tunes and I'll comp through with different approaches... try and pick tunes you somewhat know, so you'll have a reference.

Reg

I'd love to see how you'd play Nardis, Reg. And Green Dolphin Street, with the Latin to Swing shifts.

[bako]

An alternative:

You can solo against a play along in head phones and record your guitar solo.
You end up with the same product for practicing.

[Kojo27]

An alternative:

You can solo against a play along in head phones and record your guitar solo.
You end up with the same product for practicing.

What a cool idea. Simple, but I might never have thought of it! Thanks, bako.

kj

[Kojo27]

You could imagine one, or play over recording?

Thanks Vladan - sorry I missed your response here. Imagine a soloist, aye? Hmm... that isn't bad! Yeah, I think I could do that. I can hear solos in my head pretty vividly, so why not pretend someone else is playing it and comp to it? Ha! Thanks.

And yep, I suppose as long as the recordings are "fresh" (not too familiar), it could be about the same. I'll try this.

Thanks for the good ideas!

kj

[randalljazz]

biab has a function that will generate an improvised solo (and i have to say, their programmers are better musicians than i am, fwiw), and you can mute the chording instruments. pretty cool...

[NSJ]

I've been practicing really really getting my guide tones down, and adding a melody note on top, playing the guide tones on a different rhythm than melody note, in lock step with the melody note, et al.

Guide tones form the following intervallic patterns:

M7 and m7---7 to 3 always forms a P4; 3 to 7 always forms a P5.
Dom7---always forms a tri-tone, regardless if you go from 3 to 7 or 7 to 3.

Practice guide tones on: strings 6 and 5; 5 and 4; and 4 and 3.
A common chord progression such as I-iii-vi-ii-V-I requires minimal movement, as far as the guide tones are concerned.

Melody Note: Can be a diatonic/chromatic reference to either (1) the diatonic key center; or (2) the local chord-scale (e.g., the fifth of the V chord).

This is a wonderful way to sound supportive, melodic, without being overpowering; and, technically, it really helps me learn the FB.

[Kojo27]

biab has a function that will generate an improvised solo (and i have to say, their programmers are better musicians than i am, fwiw), and you can mute the chording instruments. pretty cool...

By gads, I knew that but didn't make the connection. Isn't it amazing how it does that? I guess not really - it's a little disheartening to think how closely jazz is related (or relegated?) to math. But then there's the Pythagoras thing.

Only thing BIAB solos are short on is feeling. And dynamics - I mean *real* dynamics. Still, it would work in a pinch. Thanks RJ - I'll see what I can do with it.

kojo

[Kojo27]

I've been practicing really really getting my guide tones down, and adding a melody note on top, playing the guide tones on a different rhythm than melody note, in lock step with the melody note, et al.

Guide tones form the following intervallic patterns:

M7 and m7---7 to 3 always forms a P4; 3 to 7 always forms a P5.
Dom7---always forms a tri-tone, regardless if you go from 3 to 7 or 7 to 3.

Practice guide tones on: strings 6 and 5; 5 and 4; and 4 and 3.
A common chord progression such as I-iii-vi-ii-V-I requires minimal movement, as far as the guide tones are concerned.

Melody Note: Can be a diatonic/chromatic reference to either (1) the diatonic key center; or (2) the local chord-scale (e.g., the fifth of the V chord).

This is a wonderful way to sound supportive, melodic, without being overpowering; and, technically, it really helps me learn the FB.

Cool, NSJ. You don't consider the guide tones one strings 3 & 2?

[Vladan]

BIAB seam to make quite good solos on standard progressions. However feed him something really basic, but even remotely unorthodox, in any sense, and the result is pure rubbish.