Maj7 with a b9?

[jtizzle]

So I've kind of discovered a new sound. A maj7 with a b9.
Basically i use the b9 as an extension-alteration (for lack of a better term).
Basically, I would play the scale with a natural 2nd, but flat the 9 above the octave.
In terms of scale, I hear this sounding better the more dissonant the scale is, so it absolutely sounds the best with a lydian augmented scale, which I believe is because of the instability the scale already has with the whole-tone sound it has. Its harder to solo using the b9 (unless using as passing tones and approaching notes) as a target and making it sound good, but i've been able to come up with some melodies that really emphasize the b9 and makes it sound really nice.

Just wondering, does anyone have a better explanation or experience with using a b9 over a major chord?

[mtierney]

jtizzle, I've played around with this chord/harmony idea a little bit and have some conclusions. I remember the first time I played it I thought well this is cool, but I won't ever use it...

I ran into it again significantly later in my playing and re-examined it. Like you, the only way I could voice it or articulate it was with the b9 being a far upper extension, otherwise the root, 7th, and b9 would sound silly together. Upon revisiting it, I realized that I think the way that I hear it is polychordal, or polymodal, polyscalar, whatever you want to call it... So for example I think of Cmaj7b9 as C lydian augmented and A major juxtaposed on each other. Like you, I heard the melodic minor sound in the scale, and realized that what I was hearing was more than just a cool dissonance or recurring passing tone but an interesting juxtaposition of these two modes.

So that's what I've got with that... I guess it still doesn't necessarily give it a practical application. Maybe over a maj7#5 start introducing it as a tension in comping and in soloing or composing. Another cool application would be thinking of the minor third relation in a minor ii-V-i and playing with the idea of moving a melodic minor lick up a minor third (so in a Dm7b5 | G7alt play an F melodic minor idea then an Ab melodic minor idea). Since the maj7b9 has two scales a minor third apart already, it can lead to a new approach to minor ii-V soloing.

I don't actually do this (yet!), I just thought of this now when I realized that explaining this as polychordal doesn't help too much in application hah. Something to try, for sure. It's also definitely a sound to explore over maj7#5.

This should be a cool discussion, I'd love to hear what other people have to say about this sound!

[bako]

C Db E G B

Some observations in relation to the following roots in bold:

C---Interesting b9 color on CMa7

A ---A7 with both #9 and 9

Eb---Eb7b9 with both 13 and b13

F----FMa9#11 with both 5 and #5

Bb---Bb13#11 with both #9 and b9

Looking through the prism of chord pairs.
Starting with CMa7, what possibilities are there for the remaining 3 notes including Db/C# but omitting D or D#.

7 Note
CMa7 and Db+
CMa7 and Db
CMa7 and Dbsus
CMa7 and F#m
CMa7 and F#

8 Note
CMa7 and F#Ma7
CMa7 and F#mMa7
CMa7 and Bbm7
CMa7 and BbmMa7

[shrp11]

This is not a "new" sound, composers such as Stravinsky used it, the "flatted 9th" (raised root) works as an upper extension, especially in conjunction with a sharp 11th (ahem) because it's part of the overtone series.

You'll find it in the scores of many 20th century composers, usually in the high strings, piccolos etc.

A great way to incorporate it into a jazz or modern context is to think of a poly chord, something like a Dmaj 7th upper structure over Cmaj 7th - with the C# way up top.

[jster]

ahem

lol.

[mtierney]

This is not a "new" sound, composers such as Stravinsky used it, the "flatted 9th" (raised root) works as an upper extension, especially in conjunction with a sharp 11th (ahem) because it's part of the overtone series.

You'll find it in the scores of many 20th century composers, usually in the high strings, piccolos etc.

I was going to cite Strauss when I was talking about the polychord options, but Stravinsky is a great example too, or even Wagner.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Less "out there": a Maj7 with a b6 (harmonic major scale?)

CMaj7(add b6): x36453

When you get tired on ending with a Maj7#11 chord, try this.

[timscarey]

So I've kind of discovered a new sound. A maj7 with a b9.
Basically i use the b9 as an extension-alteration (for lack of a better term).
Basically, I would play the scale with a natural 2nd, but flat the 9 above the octave.
In terms of scale, I hear this sounding better the more dissonant the scale is, so it absolutely sounds the best with a lydian augmented scale, which I believe is because of the instability the scale already has with the whole-tone sound it has. Its harder to solo using the b9 (unless using as passing tones and approaching notes) as a target and making it sound good, but i've been able to come up with some melodies that really emphasize the b9 and makes it sound really nice.

Just wondering, does anyone have a better explanation or experience with using a b9 over a major chord?

Nice, this is a cool sound for sure. I'm not sure that I can give any kind of explanation but I do have some experience with this sound. The way I access it is by voicing a major 7th chord over it's b6 giving a Maj7(#5 #9) from the bass note. When this harmony is on the bottom, the scale (as you stated above) seems to favor the natural 9 in the lower register and the b9/#9 combo in the upper register. In terms of the chords function... I find that it works pretty well as an altered dominant. (Or and altered, altered dominant as it were)

According to Jamey Abersold, the last chord of speak no evil is an Ebmaj7(#11 #9) which is the only time ive seen this chord in a jazz context. I have seen similar chords in non-jazz contexts for sure, but not on a lead sheet (with the exception mentioned above) although someone once told me that Herbie used this voicing a lot... Haven't investigated that myself, but I would tend to agree.

Personal usage note....

In a minor key when moving from 1 to 4 the "altered major seventh" works wonders as a V/iv chord. As the voiceleading yields parallel minor 2nds in all voices.


Ex. Cm9-----CMaj7(#5 #9)-----Fmin7------

All voices move up a halfstep from the first chord to the second, and from the second to the third 2 voices move by half step and 2 stay in place...... Pretty cool.


One last thing.... And I realize I'm kind of going off on a tangent, but on the Maj7(#5 #9) chord, it sounds cool to add a perfect 5th above the #9 like so...

C E G# B D# G

Giving two Aug triads a half step apart (the augmented scale in 3rds) also pretty cool.

[Reg]

Back in the 60's when melodic minor was somewhat still becoming jazz practice... I was taught to simply add the #9 to V7 chord from harmonic minor.
The result was either Harmonic Minor with added major 6th or b7th. Became Melodic min later.... But did create different collection of chords, one of which was Maj7 with b9 #9#11 and 13.

Somewhat like one use of Harmonic Major V7b9 with natural 11 and 13 chord... through modal modal interchange, borrowing or whatever method or system.

We added the #9 on the V7b9b13 chord to fill in the augmented 2nd as well as use the blue note.

[jtizzle]

Never thought of it as a polychord... not a subject I've gone into too deeply. Interesting, though.

This is not a "new" sound, composers such as Stravinsky used it, the "flatted 9th" (raised root) works as an upper extension, especially in conjunction with a sharp 11th (ahem) because it's part of the overtone series.

You'll find it in the scores of many 20th century composers, usually in the high strings, piccolos etc.

A great way to incorporate it into a jazz or modern context is to think of a poly chord, something like a Dmaj 7th upper structure over Cmaj 7th - with the C# way up top.

I wouldn't doubt that! After hearing Harry Partch, anything is possible haha. It's probably not uncommon in Stravinsky's time, and it most likely comes up in other as well, probably common in Schoenberg's music.

Less "out there": a Maj7 with a b6 (harmonic major scale?)

CMaj7(add b6): x36453

When you get tired on ending with a Maj7#11 chord, try this.

Harmonic Major is actually a quite modernly accepted scale type on it's own. I used to use it instead of Lydian Augmented when I hadn't gotten into Melodic Minor stuff yet.

As far as Reg and Tim's posts, I got more of an answer to those.
I've seen Maj7#9 used a lot in more modern stuff, which is probably why you saw that on a Wayne Shorter tune and not on a Monk tune. I actually took a look at a few of Adam Roger's charts and he uses a lot of Maj7#9's when he writes changes. I don't exactly know the function of the #9 either, but it is a little less dissonant than the b9.
I actually don't remember when I saw that, but I remember seeing somewhere, an assortment of all 12 tones arranged in an order based on the major scale, with the upper extension alteration thing going on. It's where I got the idea for the b9 thing in the first place, but it was something like C D E F G A B C Db D# E F# G# Bb C (or something like that. I probably got it wrong).


Anyways, personal usage. I was writing this tune that the melody was basically an F#min triad (F# A C# arranged in 2nd inversion) over a C Major chord, but the b9 was there, together with the #11.

[RyanM]

Google the "Double Harmonic Scale", C Db E F G Ab B.
Sometimes given names like Arabic, Hungarian, etc.; the Miserlou riff is a mode of this scale.

[Reg]

Google the "Double Harmonic Scale", C Db E F G Ab B.
Sometimes given names like Arabic, Hungarian, etc.; the Miserlou riff is a mode of this scale.

That interesting, didn't think of that source, I wonder if that is used. I mean typical jazz players don't like, at least older school players don't like large interval leaps or holes in source for improve. But at least there is a good reference for relationships and our ears are pretty comfortable with folkish sound.

I still hear as blues type of reference... (But that's my problem)

Thanks Reg

[shrp11]

My personal view is that these upper level extensions; flatted 9ths, sharp 11ths etc. came about when composers began to hear, over time, them occur naturally as part of the overtone series. Those big rooms and halls were responsible for amplifying many upper harmonics. You can imagine as the triad begat the 7th chord, so did the 7th lead to the 9th, then the sharp 11th .... then it's a short leap from the sharp 11th (or flatted 5th) the the flat 9.

It probably didn't take long for composers to run to the piano, after hearing, say, a C# overtone bouncing back at them over a C major sound and thinking " I wonder how that would sound voiced in a chord?".

We probably have the French composers Ravel, Debussy and Satie to thank for much of what we think of as "modern" harmony, but the experimentation and discoveries began long before that.

[Reg]

So shap11,
Are you saying the the source of the chord is from the overtone series. That might be a little ambiguous... Or at least very difficult to derive method for having reference for developing relationships... an approach for using in a jazz practice. There are no new notes implied by the Maj7 b9... But generally when using notes or chordal structures....there are references to a harmonic system, even multiple.

What or how would you describe the system for organization, or are you hearing or thinking in an embellishment or ornamental function with or without harmonic implication?

From your other post I wasn't sure if you were thinking of pedal or similar use with poly structures. Generally chordal structures in jazz contexts have functional organization of some type for improve relationships, as compared to composition, arranging or orchestration. Always interested in approaches.

Thanks Reg

[coolvinny]

Again, I'm no pro so perhaps I'm out to lunch...but couldn't the Maj7's b9 note merely be borrowing a chord tone or altered tone from some sort of dominant chord that helps lead the ear to a resolution point? So...maybe the b9 note "seems" like it's "on" the Maj7 chord but really what is happening is that the next chord is being anticipated early by going to some dominant chord that precedes it?

Lately I've been throwing more single note runs into my chord melodies, and I've noticed that you can throw in really outside notes (to the underlying tonic at the time, say Eb in Misty at bar 5) and these work because they pull the ear to the the upcoming change (Cmin) or perhaps even the Fm7 in bar 6.

I'm putting this out as a question, because I'm still exploring this concept.

[fep]

Larry Carlton in a video lesson long ago talked about what he called a 'Super Arpeggio' made up of alternating major and minor thirds. It makes it's way up to a b9 and doesn't even sound dissonant by itself (at least not to me). He talked about improvising over pieces of it (like superimposing triads).

C E G B D F# A C#

1 3 5 9 #11 13 b9

[Tony DeCaprio]

So I've kind of discovered a new sound. A maj7 with a b9.
Basically i use the b9 as an extension-alteration (for lack of a better term).
Basically, I would play the scale with a natural 2nd, but flat the 9 above the octave.
In terms of scale, I hear this sounding better the more dissonant the scale is, so it absolutely sounds the best with a lydian augmented scale, which I believe is because of the instability the scale already has with the whole-tone sound it has. Its harder to solo using the b9 (unless using as passing tones and approaching notes) as a target and making it sound good, but i've been able to come up with some melodies that really emphasize the b9 and makes it sound really nice.

Just wondering, does anyone have a better explanation or experience with using a b9 over a major chord?

Yes, It is a very cool sound that I use occasionally in conjunction with Maj7#4 (#11) voicings. I think of it as Phyrgian/Lydian chord. If we can use Cmaj7 (b9/#11) as criteria: Since F# is part of the overtone series, It is a P4 above B (B being the large 7 of Cmaj7) and thus F# is overtonal to B. ***C# (your "b9) is thus overtonal to F#***.

It is audible...we can *hear* it. We can leave the third in the chord or delete it according to "taste", but lets leave it in as an open string and try to voice from the 5th string, bass to soprano: C F# B C# E. Now try Cmaj7#4/b9 for two beats voiced without the E (omit 3rd or, if you wish 10th) as C F# B Db (C#) into Cma7#4 for two beats, voiced: C F# B E. Cool team?

We can build a hybrid scale similar to what Ryan suggested, but by fusing tetracords (4 note scale fragments) : C C# E F# is now Phrygian/Lydian tetracord. The remaining three notes (7 note scale) are the rest of a C major scale: G A B (C). Thus a beautiful hybrid scale to accompany your hybrid chord. If you wish to add the natural 2nd, be my guest. Perhaps you can call it: "C Phrygian/Lydian Blues Scale."

Keeping in mind that the overtone series forms a "lattice" out of the resonances and this lattice produces two strong cycles: Cycle of V and Cycle of III. Therefore, A resonates in a reciprocal manner with C# via the cycle of III, the M3 below and thus G# is overtonal to E, the 3rd of the chord. And although, G# is not part of your chord voicing or scale, it very well can be. So, you can for an additional Phrygian/Lydian Blues Scale as: C C# E F# G G# A B (C). In other words, you can "make your sauce" from the 'sound-point ' of raised root or raised 5th.

It's actually very easy to blow on, once you fuse the tetracords and produce your hybrid scale.

I will be happy to demonstrate some linear, chordal, and arpeggiated ideas via Skype.

TD

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Larry Carlton in a video lesson long ago talked about what he called a 'Super Arpeggio' made up of alternating major and minor thirds. It makes it's way up to a b9 and doesn't even sound dissonant by itself (at least not to me). He talked about improvising over pieces of it (like superimposing triads).

C E G B D F# A C#

1 3 5 9 #11 13 b9

I remember that -- it goes through the entire chromatic scale if you let it continue. You can break the pattern into 4 note blocks and it's ascending Maj7s:

C E G B
D F# A C#
E G# B D#
...

Or you can break it into 6 note blocks (3 + 3) and it alternates major and minor triads:

C E G | B D F#
A C# E | G# B D#
...

Fun!

[timscarey]

So, I was thinking about this Maj7(#5 #9) thing a bit more over the last few days and thought to myself... "using the theory that I generally use, what if I think of this as the added #11 to the parent melodic minor" like for example...

Cmaj7(#5 #9) comes from A melodic minor with a D# added in the upper extensions.... then I thought about adding the #11 from the MM to the upper structure of other MM chord types, I found a few chords I have never used before... pretty stoked, thought I would add them to the discussion.

Cmin(maj9)#11 = C Eb G B D F# (Cmm with added #11)

Cm13(b5) = C Eb Gb Bb D F A (Eb mm with added #11)

Like the Maj7 (#5 #9) these chords won't handle any inversion, the major 7th intervals must remain Maj 7ths and not be made into half steps or minor 9ths for the the chords to retain their character, they also sound very similar to each other.

Ideas about these sounds? I feel like they fit into the discussion somehow

a few minutes goes by.....

upon looking at these chords again, I realized that they are all the same...

A C Eb G B D F# = Am13 (b5)
--C Eb G B D F# = CmMaj9 (#11)
----Eb G B D F# = EbMaj7 (#5 #9)

And they all come from G Melodic (or harmonic, not sure what it's normally called) Major.... sweetness, gotta spend more time with that scale I guess.

in this example, the E natural is the tone that seems to enter the picture melodically at the octave, (it would serve as the b9) on the Eb Maj chord. Oddly, the same thing happens with the other 2 chords (at least to my ears). The E natural sounds more stable melodically over the CmMaj9(#11), as well as the Am13(b5) even though Eb and D are in the chords.... I find this fascinating BTW.... I feel like I just learned something new today. WTF is going on here? I feel like it has to be because of the intervals in the chord as they relate to the overtone series and to each other. Some Hindemith stuff might help here.....

[shrp11]

So shap11,
Are you saying the the source of the chord is from the overtone series. That might be a little ambiguous... Or at least very difficult to derive method for having reference for developing relationships... an approach for using in a jazz practice. There are no new notes implied by the Maj7 b9... But generally when using notes or chordal structures....there are references to a harmonic system, even multiple.

What or how would you describe the system for organization, or are you hearing or thinking in an embellishment or ornamental function with or without harmonic implication?

From your other post I wasn't sure if you were thinking of pedal or similar use with poly structures. Generally chordal structures in jazz contexts have functional organization of some type for improve relationships, as compared to composition, arranging or orchestration. Always interested in approaches.

Thanks Reg

Reg, I'm not certain I understand exactly what it is you're asking for. I'm just speculating as to the source of upper extensions mostly likely having been rooted in, and discovered by composers, as a natural phenomenon.

As to a system for organizing them? There are quite a few legitimate theories and practices out there for the improvising musician which will give you suggested rules - i.e., flat 9th and flat 13th over minor progressions, lydian flat 7 mode for sub V's, natural 9ths and 13ths over major progressions, etc.

The above rules in practice are a good guide for improvisors, but they're not really applicable to the composer, in fact, they're quite limiting. That's what I love about the topic of this thread, the flatted 9ths on a major 7th tonality - this could be seen as "wrong" to an improvisor, but to the composer, it's very cool indeed.

Now, if a composer writes a chord like the following in a jazz chart: Dmajor7th/C, the improvisor will need to accept a hybrid mode that includes the major and minor 7th as well as the sharp 11th and natural 9 and 13 th - the following notes are the most important; c,d,e,a,b,F# and C#. You could probably argue the c natural as not being essential (since it's the root), but there are some cool sounds to be had with the c and c#.

[timscarey]

Now, if a composer writes a chord like the following in a jazz chart: Dmajor7th/C, the improvisor will need to accept a hybrid mode that includes the major and minor 7th as well as the sharp 11th and natural 9 and 13 th - the following notes are the most important; c,d,e,a,b,F# and C#. You could probably argue the c natural as not being essential (since it's the root), but there are some cool sounds to be had with the c and c#.

I'm wondering why you included B natural in your list of important notes, To my ear, Bb seems to fit a little better.

[shrp11]

I'm wondering why you included B natural in your list of important notes, To my ear, Bb seems to fit a little better.

Tim,

I'm keeping with the theme of the thread title, maj 7ths with flatted 9ths. Using a Bb in lieu of B natural changes our chord sound from the "unusual"; a Cmaj7th b9, to the "usual"; a C7 b9.

[timscarey]

Tim,

I'm keeping with the theme of the thread title, maj 7ths with flatted 9ths. Using a Bb in lieu of B natural changes our chord sound from the "unusual"; a Cmaj7th b9, to the "usual"; a C7 b9.

Indeed, keeping with the thread title. Something i should work on...

[shrp11]

Indeed, keeping with the thread title. Something i should work on...

That's ok, I erred in my writing of the polychord, it should look like this Dma7/Cmaj7 (actually, the d maj chord should sit atop the cmaj chord with a horizontal line between them, but I don't know how to format that here).

It should look something like this:
Dmaj7
Cmaj7

[Reg]

Hey #11, thanks for response.

Yea.. I thought you might have a harmonic system or functional source for note collection. (maj7 b9). Somewhat like your SDM modal interchange reference or relative / parallel type of MI typical legit or non-legit theories as to other note collections... they have source for reference.

As compared to your example of taking the spelled harmonic structure or specific Voicing and that structure being the source or beginning reference for creating relationships... with or with out reference to the rest of chart.

I've never found harmonic rules or guidelines limiting for composing, actually I found them very enjoyable... and to think an improviser would see or hear a note as wrong...?

I've always thought composition and improvisation use very related techniques. Deceptively through use of combinations of different harmonic systems create different functional movement of existing typical chordal progressions... there are obviously unlimited options.
But I would usually have organization... legit or not.

Even color or voicings can have organization with reference. Many times when stacking or creating polychords, slashchords, extended, using bitonality, polytonality, parallelism... whatever resource.... they can be deceptive or camouflage with simple harmonic reference. I'm not sure of your example... either Dmaj7/C or Dmaj7 over Cmaj7... but sure cool sounds are to be had... but generally there are references which would give hints of guidelines as to applications and relationships developed... at least from my point of view.

If we took the Dmaj7/C... there are a few standard references or mechanical organizational systems for having base reference and developing relationships... compositionally or improvisationally. The same with Dmaj7 over Cmaj7

I'm cool with having cool sound and then using... but "use" generally implies "reference"... (IMO)

This is fun topic but yea not that related to Jazz Guitar Forum.
Reg