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Is it a good idea to play 3 or less note chords when playing rhythm (not your basic Freddy Green voicings, but chords with more flavor 9#11, 13's, -9, 7b5b9, etc. etc.)?
The bass is playing the root and the piano duplicates the harmony, so I have a concept of what needs to be done.
The most important notes: 3, 7, altered/extensions, root, 5th, respectively. So if I stick, on the 9#11 for example, to playing b7,9,#11 (or even if I get rid of that 9 and add the third), would that be a good idea?
In general, I think my main question is, is it okay to keep only the extended notes when playing rhythm and let the piano, bass, etc. take care of the rest (mostly because sometimes the full chord just doesn't mesh so well in certain types of settings, and freddy green voicings don't seem practical when you get some fancy designer chords
)?
Thanks -
Doc
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11-09-2008 05:27 PM
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Well, if the bass plays the roots and the piano is duplicating the harmony then I suppose that the piano plays the 3rds and the fifths and maybe some other grade, right?
That way you could play 9ths, 4rths or 11ths, 6ths or 13ths and 7ths.
Sure someone else will complete the answer.
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I'd say it's perfectly fine to at least leave out the notes that are already covered by the bass and piano and play the extensions, the rest is really up to you and what notes you want the emphasis to be on. Actually I think the smaller the voicing in a setting like yours, the better it'll really swing and stay clear of clutter
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Hi, again!
I agree with you a22, but I'd suggest to doc_rice to have some talk with the pianist because I don't think he will always play roots, 3rds and 5ths. Probably he will plays some 7ths or 9ths or whatever.
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Yes quite true, you might want to play some notes together with the pianist to put emphasis on them, whatever tickles your fancy
. If your pianist plays solos as well while your comping with the rest of the rhythm section, remember to keep it under wraps and simple enough so that you don't jump on the pianist's toes while he soloes.
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Certainly, that's why I want smaller voicings. I don't want to digress, but that does bring about another question quasi related to this. When the piano is soloing, which hence does, should I do the same small chords I want to play (with 9's,11's,etc.) or should I play the basics like the 1, 3, 5, etc. Just curious, since the piano is no longer playing those when they're soloing.
Originally Posted by a22
Yes quite true, you might want to play some notes together with the pianist to put emphasis on them, whatever tickles your fancy. If your pianist plays solos as well while your comping with the rest of the rhythm section, remember to keep it under wraps and simple enough so that you don't jump on the pianist's toes while he soloes.
Thanks -
Doc
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Depends on the piano player. Some guys like to go outside the changes and some follow them closely so in that case the 3 and 7 are ll you should grab. of course theres alway the exception and your ear will tell you when.
Most I've worked with prefer that the guitar 'tacet' during their solo. I usually lay out when the piano player solos unless we're REALLY in sync. Likewise when I solo I tend to mix up single lines , octaves intervals and chords so It's better if the piano player lays out during my solo as well.
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The best way to make sure you don't mess each other up is as JohnW said just lay out. There's so many tonal possibilites to play with when you have just bass and drums comping that unless you're really tuned to each other's playing it might get messy, this is of course a problem only if your piano player likes to explore and is not so tied up to the changes
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it depends on the situation. when my piano player plays bass, he want's
the chording to be a lot of off beat/on beat jabs and fuller chords, during the head i try to
keep the melody note out of that register unless i want to double it. during solos i'll either not play or play sparsley, also depends on who is playing. I sometimes even use 2 note chords. 3rd and 7th, or 7th and 3rd. this never clashes with alt. dom's. sometimes first time through the solo is just bass and drums.
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I've always used 2 or 3 note chords...the way you comp will bring more out than the voicings being used...sometimes less is more...time on the instrument...pierre
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hey pierre,
I agree with you 100%. Less is more. Messing around with standard 12 bar blues in Bb and found that Ab (6th fret 4th string) is the b7 and D (7th
fret 3rd string) is the 3rd, 2 note Ichord, now take that shape down a half
step and you have another 2 note IV chord. G is the 3rd and Db is the b7.
Now shift the same shape up a full step and you have a 2 note V chord.
A (7th fret 4th string) 3rd and Eb (8th fret 3rd string)b7. This is all moveable from Bb7/9/13 downward to 3rd fret or upward to 9th fret and down to 6th fret. Can be chromatic or I VI II V. I'm probably telling you something you already know, but someone may be able to benefit from it. I use some of these forms on the sidewinder Lee Morgan, and on blues when I'm playing with another guitar or keyboard.
It free's them up to do altered chords.
LarryLast edited by Electric Larry; 11-17-2008 at 03:59 PM.
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allright Larry...way to go..everyone will benefit from this site no matter what level of playing they are at...time on the instrument...pierre
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Pierre,
I played the Pocono's. I think it was Caeser's Palace. I tasted my 1st
Yeungling there. Very fresh beer. Anyway I have some chord Knowledge
that I'd like to offer. Hopefully will help someone. It's about homonyms.
I got this from Ted greene. Chord Chemistry. It is now called Modern
Chord Progressions. It is very helpful for learning a chord in more than one position. Take a A9 it's = to C#m7b5 = Em6 = Eb7#5b9. These chords
are interchangeable. You must make sure you don't play the root A when
the bass is playing an Eb. Just play the top part of the chords. This very
helpfull when the keyboard player say's don't you know any different inversions of those changes. It's embarrassing, and it does happen. I know
from experience.
Larry
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Ted Green and Chord Chemistry = a better player...I have a few of his books...he could play too!!....time on the instrument...pierre
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One way of learning chord voicings is to try and limit yourself to only two frets at a time and think of as many positions you can put your fingers into given the small amount of space you have. When you stumble on a voicing you like, write it out on a chord diagram. Do this for the entire fretboard. Keep a notebook with chord diagrams of the chords that you like. As you're going along figure out what the notes you're playing and write them under the chord diagram as this will help you locate the chord names a little easier. This is very time consuming, but with some hard work and dedication you'll have your own virtual chord encylopedia at your disposal.
This is one way I figured a lot of voicings. It's kind of crazy to think by limiting yourself, you're actually expanding your knowledge.
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Hey frisellfan19...sounds interesting. Could you give me an example?
I'm a Frisell fan myself.
electric larry
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Originally Posted by Electric Larry
There's really not an example I can give you Larry as this is something you have figure out for yourself. I gave you a method and it's up to you or anyone else to find it's use. All I know is it's worked for me.
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i don't think it's crazt at all--it's a good idea. Originally Posted by frisellfan19
whenever i learn a new song, i see how i can play all of the chords in it in a few fret span. this leads to better voice leading, which should always be a goal.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Yeah, I think this does lead to better voice-leading, no question about it. Before you know it, you can start playing all kinds of closed-voiced chords that add great tension to those more open-sounding voicings.
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A great exercise that Greg Amireault had me do back when I was a student was to pick any octave on the neck and then stick with that octave while playing the melody, chords, scales, arpeggios and soloing in that one spot.
I agree, by limiting myself to a small portion of the neck it really forced me to be more creative with my lines and to get away from my pet tricks.
MW
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Correction: we're all still students Matt. Originally Posted by m78w
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I'll refrase, "back when I was amassng student loans......"
MW
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I've found from learning comping that as a bove, 'less is more' but also there are some lovely three note inversion with big spans on the fret board. It seems to me that for a comping player playing only three or four notes big fret spans do make a difference. You get inversions with some lovely, rich tonal colour when you spread your fingers out a bit. Plus, simple chords are easy to move quickly so you can also bounce around the neck, creating a variety of tetures while still creating smooth progressions by use of inversions.
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Originally Posted by P_Jay
Here's my thing. I like to mix it up. It's really all a matter of where your mind is telling you to go next. Sometimes those wide note spanning chords are hard to grab, especially if you don't have large hands, like me, what I do is find ways of grabbing chord voicings that are more in my reach. I agree though there are some lovely voicings to be found when the intervals are spread out a bit.
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'I'd say your hands are quite small' (a friend's comment after measuring). Can you span 5 frets at the nut? Rare chords. But as long as you've got a reasonably nimble pinky then plenty of inversions are available. If you try a Django progression you'll be all over the neck with (usually) nothing but 3 finger chords and rich colour.
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