Barry Harris: My AHA moment regarding chords and comping

[nosoyninja]

This is the Barry Harris deal, right? I'd like to hear more about that. What specifically was "aha" about it? I tried to understand the Harris method when I first started out and was baffled.

from:

I have to agree that working them out yourself is the best and quickest way to dominate the material. My first class with my jazz guitar teacher, he said: "ok, this is drop 2 on paper. Next class you come in, show me all inversions on the fretboard for maj7, min7, maj 6, min6, dom7, dom7b5, min7b5, diminished 7, aug 7, and every other 4 note chord on every possible string set.(the list contained a total of about 13 different chord types).

I answered: "well, see you in a year!" ha ha. Anyway, I sure did a lot of sweating and tounge biting that week in the woodshed. I managed to work most of them out and brought them in the next week for class. As I was settling in to show him my work, he sat back, smirked and said, "forget it, you don't really need to know all that, look..." And then he showed me the major 6th diminished scale and minor 6th diminished scale built from drop 2 voicings. It is the biggest AHA moment I have ever had on the guitar!

I don't have a specific point with all that. But I will say that if I hadn't at least tried to work out ALL the voicings for ALL the chord types, the shortcut my teacher showed me wouldn't have made any sense at all. So yeah, work out all the drop 2 voicings at least once. For further study I recommend the Randy Vincent book, "jazz voicings, vol. 1" and "the barry harris method for guitar" by alan kingstone.

[paynow]

Amazon.com: Chordability: Roni Ben-Hur, Various: Movies & TV

He plays with Barry. The whole video is about drop chords and the whole Maj6dim Min6dim Barry Harris method. I'm starting to get how it can be used. Basically:

C-E-G-A CM6
D-F-Ab-B Ddim7

AND

C-Eb-G-A Cm6
D-F-Ab-B Ddim7

Put them together and you get:

C-D-E-F-G-Ab-A-B-C C6 dim scale

C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-A-B-C Cm6 dim scale

Also known as bebop major and bebop melodic minor. Then, he harmonizes chords off the scale, all the inversions, and plays them like a scale, all inversions of M6, m6, and diminished 7. Of course you're also getting m7b5 chords and m7 chords, he'll use a m6/m7b5 for a dom7#5b9 (Cm6=Am7b5=B7#5b9) without the root. Many interesting things. What I found interesting is that never once is it mentioned that you can also use it as a dom7(9) chord, as in F9 from the previous example.

I work on things I've learned from that DVD constantly and still have to go back and work with it. The lessons on drop chords are the best I've ever seen. Also comes with a great PDF booklet.

[jster]

Interesting. How exactly do the inversions come in? You got 8*2 or 16 chords from the two scales. And in the quote nosoyninja says there are 13 chord types. So don't you still have to do lots of mapping out manually to get all the 13*4 inversions? I was just reading about harmonizing the bebop scale with inversions of I6 and iidim7. Can you say a bit more? I looove tricks.

[nosoyninja]

Well, it's a little complicated to explain in text, but let me give it a try.

First off, I can't exactly explain what was AHA about it, since that has more to do with how MY mind works and how I structure the material I am trying to learn or work with. But it just clicked perfectly for me, it just made sense. SO MUCH sense in fact, that I realized I didn't have to memorize any chord shapes or voicings and just keep in mind 3 or 4 concepts. In other words, I understood the reason, logic, theory, behind the shapes on the fretboard.

So, in esence, it boils down to the implications of harmonizing the 6th scale:

C-E-G-A
D-F-Ab-B
E-G-A-C
F-Ab-B-D
G-A-C-E
Ab-B-D-F
A-C-E-G
B-D-F-Ab

When you harmonize a regular 7 note diatonic scale, each scale degree reveals a different chord and chord type, so C gives us Cmaj7, D is D-7, B is Bm7b5, etc... Right away we can see that this does not happen with the 6th scale:

C-E-G-A = C6
D-F-Ab-B = B dim
E-G-A-C = C6
F-Ab-B-D = B dim
G-A-C-E = C6
Ab-B-D-F = B dim
A-C-E-G = C6
B-D-F-Ab = B dim

(EDIT: changed chord spelling from colums to rows, easier to format.)

Every other chord is an inversion of C6th, and the ones in between are inversions of B diminished 7th. What!? that's awesome! why? because now when you see a Cmaj chord simbol, you can play through this whole scale and it'll sound delicious. Why? because Bdim is a regularly used substitution for G7 in the key of C, so if you play C6/Bd/C6/Bd , you are also playing a I6/V7/I6/V7 in C. It's a set of voicings that implies movement, tension and resolution.

How does this translate into Drop 2? Well, all I really need to "memorize" is the 4 shapes of C6 inversions and the single Diminished shape that repeats up and down the neck. And this nets me a very useful scale from which to pick my choice of tensions and resolution for chord movement.

Also, we can easily figure out that C6 is also Am7 in a different configuration, right? So, with just this one scale, we have major, AND minor sounds with the same concept of dominant tensions and movement.

I'll write some more later... The wife doesn't approve of spending sunday afternoon with my "internet friends" instead of helping around the house ;-)
So stay tuned.

[nosoyninja]

But wait! there's more!

The same thing happens when you harmonize the C-6th AND the C7 scale! If we use the same logic as before, we can derive the Am7b5 chord from C-6th, and so, with only 3 different chord types:

Maj6, Min6, Dom7 , we can build chord movement that both IMPLIES and clearly STATES:

Maj6, Maj7, Maj9, Min6, Min7b5, Dom 7th and Dominant 9th.

Where does the Maj 7 and Maj9 come from? Well, If you play a sequence of C6 /Bdim7/C6/Bdim7 1 beats each during a measure, you will be playing ALL the notes of C6th PLUS the Maj 7th as part of the B dim chord as well. Also, if we play G6 (GBDE) over C, were playing E-7 over C... In other words Cmaj9th!!!

One more: C-6 is also Am7b5, which is A C Eb G . If you play that over F in the bass, your playing F9 (F A C Eb G).

Why is this so cool? well, because again, this is all structured to deliver interesting chord MOVEMENT with out having to think too much. This allows your fingers and EARS to choose interesting tensions and resolutions during a chord progression.

Lets look at an example. I was working on bars 9 through 12 of "I could write a book" from the standards real book (page 182, for those who have it around). These are the top changes, BTW, which means they are common substitute chords and progressions used in the tune. (The Standards Real Book has the plain vanilla chord progression written out above the staff, and then an alternate "jazzier" version written between parentheses in smaller letters above those changes):

C6/E - Ebdim7 - Dm7 - G7 - C6 - Cdim7 - G6/B - C
(two chords per measure)

This small progression is like Barry Harris in a nutshell. Notice the chromatic root movement of the first 3 chords, then from Dm7 to G7 with D in the bass, then down to C6 , to Cdim7 to G6/B, and so on. Try playing that with Drop 2 chords on string set 5432. This particular chord movement sounds good, and voice leading happens to work out quite nicely.

Now, I'm not saying that this is a Barry Harris arrangement, I'm saying that if you want to know WHY it sounds good, well, Barry has an answer that might help you understand AND help you make similar sounds and arrangements.

[nosoyninja]

Extra Credit:

Diminished chords are awesome!

1. Lower any single note of a dim chord and you get a dominant chord

2.. Raise any single note of a dim chord and you get a -6 chord

3. Lower two consecutive notes and you get a Maj6th chord.

Try number 1 above. from the Common drop 2 diminished shape, lower any one of your fingers. You end up with one of 4 possible inversions of a dominant 7th chord! So from Db diminished, you are just a hair away from C7 (root position), Gb7 (5th in the bass), Eb (7th in the bass), A7 (3rd in the bass).

what is this good for? well, notice the roots of these dominant 7th chords, they are min 3rds apart, and form another diminished chord themselves? Anyone of these Dominants (and their related harmonized scale) can substitute for the others! They reveal different extensions and tension notes like flat 9, sharp 9, 13th, etc. depending on which you use.

Again, the best part is you don't really have to think about what extensions you are using, you just remember you can substitute any dominant chord with any other dominant chord a minor 3rd away, and you can find some awesome sounds for comping, arranging or chord-melody. From slightly dissonant to way-out-there, to totally inside, your choice.

These are only a bare minimum of a few of the ideas that can be classified as Barry Harris' "approach". The book I previously mentioned by Alan Kingstone is a goldmine! Of course I can clearly see that this is only one of many ways to approach chords and comping and so on. And at some point, just like with single note soloing, when you are on the bandstand, the approach melts away and you are just having fun playing notes and improvising. (I'm pretty far from this point myself!)

It just seems to me to be an arrangement of ideas surrounding chords and comping that totally makes sense.

cheers!

[Prome]

I think of it in a simpler way. One can take this:

| Am7 | Am7 | Am7 | Am7 |

And "prolong" (to use the classical term) or elaborate on the Am7 sound by using its related V7b9 chord, like this:

| Am7 E7b9 | Am7 E7b9| etc. etc.

You can even do it in 8th notes, like back and forth from one to the next 8 times in a measure. The voicings I wrote in the above post illustrate this.

A natural minor = A B C D E F G
A harmonic minor = A B C D E F G#
C Major Bebop = C D E F G G# A B

So, Barry is basically looking at the fusion of both minor scales as a Bebop scale, where I (and I suspect others, Pass perhaps), are just seeing and hearing im7 V7b9, back and forth. Ultimately, whatever floats one's boat works, but I will say that the CPP classical composers used this frequently (related V7 chords as non-autonomous harmonies meant to "prolong" the sound of its related i or I).

[FatJeff]

I can see why this way of thinking is attractive. It offers a "grand unified theory" of harmony that also has a relatively simple implementation on the fretboard. My harmonic concept at this point is a little more traditional, having just endured 5 years of music school, but I'll keep an open mind on it. I do see its allure and how people get an "Aha" moment out of it. I have to admit that when I saw you harmonize the bebop scales in thirds, I didn't immediately recognize those chords, so to see them all as inversions of Cmaj6 and Bdim7 is pretty sweet.

On the other hand, knowing nothing of this method beyond what you've told me, if I were presented with the chord progression C6/E - Ebdim7 - Dm7 - G7 - C6 - Cdim7 - G6/B - C, I think I could pretty easily do that with drop-2s, since I am familiar w/ them in all inversions all over the neck. I would automatically replace the C6/E with a Cmaj7 in first inversion, which has the correct bass note, which leads quite nicely to Ebdim7, and then again to Dm7 in root position. So I'm not so sure one way is better over the others, excepting the fact that the traditional drop-2 method requires a sh*tload more memorization of shapes.

I'll play around with the two ways of doing things tonight and see what else I can discover.

[nosoyninja]

On the other hand, knowing nothing of this method beyond what you've told me, if I were presented with the chord progression C6/E - Ebdim7 - Dm7 - G7 - C6 - Cdim7 - G6/B - C, I think I could pretty easily do that with drop-2s, since I am familiar w/ them in all inversions all over the neck. I would automatically replace the C6/E with a Cmaj7 in first inversion, which has the correct bass note, which leads quite nicely to Ebdim7, and then again to Dm7 in root position. So I'm not so sure one way is better over the others, excepting the fact that the traditional drop-2 method requires a sh*tload more memorization of shapes.

Well... Again, I think the point of structuring things around these 6th diminished scales is that there's a certain logic that explains why those diminished chords are there. If we were to try and explain them with traditional diatonic functions and numbers, it becomes cumbersome and the underlying importance of what the harmony is trying to do is not as obvious. At least in my opinion. So the important aspect I am trying to communicate here is not that this is an easier way to memorize chords, it's that it's an easier way to play them over progressions and use tensions and resolutions without having to think too much. That is the heart of the approach, not the dim chords or the 6th scales.

I hope this makes sense. As I stated earlier it's really hard to express these ideas through text.

later,

[Hoji]

+1 on the diminished "a-ha" discovery. I've been getting into this as well. It seems you can get a LOT of mileage out only a couple chord shapes, when you think about inversions and substitutions.

[FatJeff]

So, because I am a complete jazz book and DVD whore, I bought Ron Ben Hur's "Chordability," and received it in the mail today. Just watched the first 8 minutes (including the introduction), and there, he just summed up the last 3 years of my life, learning the drop-2 chords in all inversions, on all string sets, for all chord qualities, and all substitutions. Ouch. Say goodbye to my ego.

I will say, though, that this introduction is probably the best explanation of how drop-2 chords are formed than anything else I've seen. Someone ought to post this segment to Youtube so we can point novices to it. :-)

I'll watch the rest of the video later.

[paynow]

So, because I am a complete jazz book and DVD whore, I bought Ron Ben Hur's "Chordability," and received it in the mail today. Just watched the first 8 minutes (including the introduction), and there, he just summed up the last 3 years of my life, learning the drop-2 chords in all inversions, on all string sets, for all chord qualities, and all substitutions. Ouch. Say goodbye to my ego.

I will say, though, that this introduction is probably the best explanation of how drop-2 chords are formed than anything else I've seen. Someone ought to post this segment to Youtube so we can point novices to it. :-)

I'll watch the rest of the video later.

Great PDF on there too Jeff, giving you all the voicings. Eager to hear your further commentary once you're finished. This and Vic Juris "All That Jazz" DVD would go with me to a deserted island.

What I love is how "no frills" it is. It's like "I'm going to go to this old, historic house in Harlem, open up my dry erase board and teach you some great stuff."

It's awesome. I'll pass on posting it to YouTube; these guys need to make a living.

[A. Kingstone]

nosoyninja

Glad you find value in the book and thanks for the kind words.

Someone asked where do Major Seventh and Major Ninth chords come from.

The Major Seventh is a Major Sixth with the Diminished Note Borrowed from above.

C6 Drop 2 - C G A E
CM7 - C G B E

The alto note Borrows the diminished note from above.


This can now be moved through the Sixth Diminished Scale borrowing the alto from above throughout.


The implications are vast.

[setemupjoe]

nosoyninja

Glad you find value in the book and thanks for the kind words.

Someone asked where do Major Seventh and Major Ninth chords come from.

The Major Seventh is a Major Sixth with the Diminished Note Borrowed from above.

C6 Drop 2 - C G A E
CM7 - C G B E

The alto note Borrows the diminished note from above.


This can now be moved through the Sixth Diminished Scale borrowing the alto from above throughout.


The implications are vast.

Alan,
I just have to chime in here and say I think your book is a terrific introduction to the Barry Harris concepts. I always end up picking it up and finding something new and challenging in there. Barry's concepts are so deep and go so far beyond what most people know about "bebop" scales.
Good work.

[A. Kingstone]

Thanks setemupjoe! Good to hear.

Great name by the way. Makes me thirsty.

[bako]

Alan,

The starting chord pair is CMa6 + Ddim (CEGA + DFAbB). Together they cover all 8 notes of the scale.

So with Cma7, the B is borrowed from Ddim. Is there a complimentary chord paired with CMa7?
If it's a straight up trade B for A, the remaining scale tones are ADFAb are a bit more esoteric than the original CMa6/Ddim pair.

Thanks

[A. Kingstone]

Bako:

For this borrowing possibility here are the chords, continuing to borrow for the 6th and Dim Chords (Alto From Above). Notice the third note of each chord (alto) is from the opposite chord.

C G B E (B is from Dim)

D Ab C F (C is from 6th)

E A D G (D is from Dim)

F B E Ab (E is from 6th)

G C F A

Ab D G B

A E Ab C

B F A D

[bako]

Alan,

Thanks, that's very clear. Now I'll go buy and study the book some before I go asking about the vast implications.

Best,
Bako

[whatswisdom]

C gives us Cmaj7, D is D-7, B is Bm7b5, etc... Right away we can see that this does not happen with the 6th scale:

C-E-G-A = C6
D-F-Ab-B = B dim
E-G-A-C = C6
F-Ab-B-D = B dim
G-A-C-E = C6
Ab-B-D-F = B dim
A-C-E-G = C6
B-D-F-Ab = B dim

Every other chord is an inversion of C6th, and the ones in between are inversions of B diminished 7th.

Cool stuff. BTW, this is Exercise #1 in Randy Vincent's Drop 2 book. He elaborates by comparing the same drop 2 harmonized bebop scale side-by-side with voicings in George Shearing block chord style. You sound hip before chapter 1 is over...

[jster]

I'm missing one thing. How does one get from these eight note scales to drop 2? One is a musical matter, the other a guitar geometry matter. Would there be no AHA moment if you tried using drop 3 chords? Sorry, working through all this is on my list, but threads come and go so quickly I feel I need to get my questions in before interest in the thread disappears.

[bako]

Jster,

Using different voicing spreads enlarges the palette of expressing the same harmonies.

Take a chord pair that you like from those suggested above and play them in the following voicing spreads and inversions.

1357 / 3571 / 5713 / 7135

1375 / 3517 / 5731 / 7153

1573 / 3715 / 5137 / 7351

1537 / 3751 / 5173 / 7315

1735 / 3157 / 5371 / 7513

1753 / 3175 / 5317 / 7531

Chords that are too stretchy play broken.
Go through one row at a time and then try alternating between two rows.

Drop 2 and drop 3 are the most hand friendly groups played on guitar.
This makes them in some way a default choice but not the only game in town.

[A. Kingstone]

I'm missing one thing. How does one get from these eight note scales to drop 2? One is a musical matter, the other a guitar geometry matter. Would there be no AHA moment if you tried using drop 3 chords? Sorry, working through all this is on my list, but threads come and go so quickly I feel I need to get my questions in before interest in the thread disappears.

Great questions. Yes Drop 3 can be used (or any voicing). If your hands are big enough run the 6th Dim scales in close position.

The jump from Drop 2 to eight note scales is probably because they are both taught by Barry Harris.

Here, the same Major Seventh Borrowing idea using Drop 3 for F6-Diminished.

Drop 3 - F6 = F D A C
Drop 3 - Eo = G E Bb Db

Borrow Diminished Note from Above In TENOR.(Borrowed notes now 2nd listed)

F E A C

G F Bb Db

A G C D

Bb A Db E

C Bb D F

Db C E G

D Db F A

E D G Bb

I've never played this before! Those middle voicings with the root position majors sound very hip.

Thanks for that!

[nosoyninja]

nosoyninja

Glad you find value in the book and thanks for the kind words.

No sir, thank you! Learning from your book has been one of the single most important experiences I've had on the guitar ever!

Someone asked where do Major Seventh and Major Ninth chords come from.

The Major Seventh is a Major Sixth with the Diminished Note Borrowed from above.

C6 Drop 2 - C G A E
CM7 - C G B E

The alto note Borrows the diminished note from above.
This can now be moved through the Sixth Diminished Scale borrowing the alto from above throughout.

The implications are vast.

Bako:

For this borrowing possibility here are the chords, continuing to borrow for the 6th and Dim Chords (Alto From Above). Notice the third note of each chord (alto) is from the opposite chord.

C G B E (B is from Dim)

D Ab C F (C is from 6th)

E A D G (D is from Dim)

F B E Ab (E is from 6th)

G C F A

Ab D G B

A E Ab C

B F A D

Could you please elaborate on these implications? This part is covered in the book, but it is not explained in the same way the other more introductory concepts are.

thanks!

[nosoyninja]

I'm missing one thing. How does one get from these eight note scales to drop 2? One is a musical matter, the other a guitar geometry matter. Would there be no AHA moment if you tried using drop 3 chords? Sorry, working through all this is on my list, but threads come and go so quickly I feel I need to get my questions in before interest in the thread disappears.

I totally understand your confusion. Let me try to elaborate on this: Barry Harris originally came up with these ideas as they concern jazz piano. BUT it just so happens that they apply PERFECTLY to comping on the guitar.

When you approach drop 2 on the guitar through the prism of Barry Harris, it makes a special kind of sense and you don't find your self needing to memorize an ungodly number of geometric shapes. You memorize a handful of shapes that make sense in the context of chord progressions and songs you actually play. This allows you to transcend the "geometrical framework", so to speak, and play things that sound good.

As you can see by what Mr. Kingstone is posting above, the basic C6th/diminished shapes are a starting point that evolves into all sorts of different shapes and sounds. You end up finding and using many of the shapes you may have explored through a geometrical, enumerative approach, but only in so far as they relate to ACTUAL chord movement.

nosoyninja,

Are you basically saying this for Maj6???
Then rinse and repeat for Cmin6 versions???

Yes! and for C7 and C7b5 also!

[A. Kingstone]

No sir, thank you! Learning from your book has been one of the single most important experiences I've had on the guitar ever!



Could you please elaborate on these implications? This part is covered in the book, but it is not explained in the same way the other more introductory concepts are.

thanks!

First off, I'm humbled by your words.

The implications.

a: For the most part we will be moving the C6o borrowed/hybrid chords as Am7 going to some kind of D7 to G. These new moves/sounds will be used on what we used to think of TWO of the 2/5/1.

b: Here's the big part. Grab a 6th Chord (or Minor 6th). Any voicing, drop this drop that no matter. (Drop 2 IS a good place to start) Now, borrow a Diminished Note. ABOVE or BELOW in the BASS/TENOR/ALTO/SOPRANO Voice.
Now move it through the 6-dim scale retaining the parallel movement in each voice.

You're going to hear sounds on your TWO chord like never before and you'll be the only one on your block playing them