Barry Harris: My AHA moment regarding chords and comping

**stv** · 05-01-2013, 05:31 PM

I've been working on the Chordability DVD for a bit, and the one thing I'm still unsure about is this: does the harmonic concept just for chords, or is it an all-encompassing approach to chords and melody in one?

There are 3 6th chords in the major scale, and it looks like you can use the maj6diminished scale to generate chords for each, but if you use the same scale for lines there will be a few issues as far as some of my former teachers would be concerned.

Does Barry Harris see it differently, or does he still approach bop melody the same way everyone else does?

**FatJeff** · 05-01-2013, 06:08 PM

Chords and melody are just two sides of the same coin. If you think about it, a chord is just an arpeggio played at the same time, and vice versa. And in fact, Charlie Christian relied heavily on chordal thinking when improvising. I still struggle with trying to unite the false duality of chords and melody.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 05-01-2013, 06:14 PM

Chords and scales are like mass and energy. There is only mass-energy.

**stv** · 05-01-2013, 07:18 PM

I'm just curious because there are 3 major 6 chords in a regular major scale but only one maj6dim scale. If I use C maj6dim (C maj bebop) in C Ionian, C Lydian, A Dorian, A Phrygian & A Aeolian, some theorists are going to take issue with that. That's a b6 on every minor7 chord.

But, if Barry Harris says go for it, I might be tempted.

**NSJ** · 05-01-2013, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Chords and melody are just two sides of the same coin. If you think about it, a chord is just an arpeggio played at the same time, and vice versa. And in fact, Charlie Christian relied heavily on chordal thinking when improvising. I still struggle with trying to unite the false duality of chords and melody.

I was taught to think that wherever you are on the fingerboard, the chord, the scale, and the arpeggio should be immediately available And accessible. Usually by scale, I mean At least one octave. The goal and the trick is to make these all subconsciously available without thinking And to you is what you need from each without mechanically running them into the ground. It seems deceptively simple, But I have found that it's not very easy to implement.

**setemupjoe** · 05-01-2013, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by stv

I'm just curious because there are 3 major 6 chords in a regular major scale but only one maj6dim scale. If I use C maj6dim (C maj bebop) in C Ionian, C Lydian, A Dorian, A Phrygian & A Aeolian, some theorists are going to take issue with that. That's a b6 on every minor7 chord.

But, if Barry Harris says go for it, I might be tempted.

These are some of the choices I'd go for. I've studied Barry Harris' method somewhat but I'm not an expert on every chord scale choice he uses.

C Ionian CMaj7: C6 Dim Scale
C Lydian CMaj7#11: Amin6 Dim Scale
A Dorian A-7: C6 Dim Scale
A Phrygian A-7: F6 Dim Scale (I tend to think of the A Phrygian chord as an inversion of the F Ionian chord therefore the F scale.)
A Aeolian A-7: C6 Dim Scale

I hope that helps.

**nosoyninja** · 05-01-2013, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by stv

Does Barry Harris see it differently, or does he still approach bop melody the same way everyone else does?

I haven't seen the whole DVD, but in Barry Harris' method videos, in which he talks about single note soloing specifically, he deals with the well known bebop scales, common deflection and chromatism techniques, etc... In other words, he does not apply the 6th diminished scale chordal concepts to single note soloing.

The guitar teacher who introduced me to Barry's ideas also told me quite early on that the 6th diminished concept is not quite as perfect a fit to single note stuff.

Also, in Alan Kingstone's book, in the intro, he clearly states (I'm paraphrasing) "this book deals with material for developing comping and chords, not lines"

NOW, that doesn't mean you can't find a way to apply it and use it to build your single note solos...

K

**stv** · 05-01-2013, 11:06 PM

Thx, nosoy...

I had a hunch it was going to get more complicated.

And I do have the beginning of a way around, but it's going to take some time.

**ColinO** · 05-02-2013, 11:13 AM

This method looks intriguing...and confusing. I'm thinking of getting this book. I'm wondering if someone could walk through the use of this method in a II V I progression. If I'm understanding this (and I'm not sure I am), if I'm looking at a II V I in G, for example - ie Am7 - D7 - GMaj7 - this method would have me thinking C6dim scale for the Am7. So effectively C6 - Bdim or Am7 - E7b9? And when I get to the D7 - GMaj7 I'm thinking G6dim - ie G6 - F#dim or G6 - D7b9?

This sounds like doing a lot of mental converting would need to be done in order to actually get through a tune?

**djangoles** · 05-02-2013, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by ColinO

This method looks intriguing...and confusing. I'm thinking of getting this book. I'm wondering if someone could walk through the use of this method in a II V I progression. If I'm understanding this (and I'm not sure I am), if I'm looking at a II V I in G, for example - ie Am7 - D7 - GMaj7 - this method would have me thinking C6dim scale for the Am7. So effectively C6 - Bdim or Am7 - E7b9? And when I get to the D7 - GMaj7 I'm thinking G6dim - ie G6 - F#dim or G6 - D7b9?

This sounds like doing a lot of mental converting would need to be done in order to actually get through a tune?

The method can be a little confusing at first....but what it boils down to in it's essence is generating moving harmony between chord changes. You need to have your Maj6/Dim and Min6/Dim inversions down pretty solid before you start to see the bigger picture.

Generally Speaking

Am7=CM6/Dim, D7=Am6/Dim or Ebm6/Dim for Altered Tones...(it's the same Diminished Chord).

It took me awhile to get anything happening mainly because I didn't have all my inversions down in all keys, but once I got that together, the concepts started to make sense in a playable way. The method does force you to do some converting in your thinking, but you'll find that once you start using some of the moves they are easily inverted because of the basic Tonic(M6 or m6)/Dominant(Diminshed) thing that is always happening.

**stv** · 05-02-2013, 12:09 PM

C6dim for Am7 for sure.

D7 could be D7dim (alternating D7 & C#dim7), or Ab7dim (Ab7 & Gdim7), or Am6dim (Am6 & G#dim7), or Ebm6dim (Ebm6 & Ddim7), or D7b5/Gb7b5 dim (D7b5 & C#dim), or D7double-dim (Ddim7 & Ebdim7 - 1/2 whole diminished), for starters.

GMaj7 sounds better as a D6 resolving down to G6 through Abdim7 - two notes stay the same throughout while the other voices go down in 1/2 steps - classic cool.

It's a little confusing at first, but, as with anything, you get used to it and it eventually becomes second nature (I hope).

This link can help you figure out what scale might work for any given chord: Barry's Scale Reminder-JAVA

**ColinO** · 05-02-2013, 01:04 PM

Thanks. Your answers are very helpful. It seems like a different way of thinking about progressions that seems worth knowing.

Cheers.

**stv** · 05-02-2013, 03:09 PM

You're welcome. Much appreciated.

**stv** · 05-04-2013, 07:31 AM

Another interesting approach to D7 would be to use either G6dim or Bb6dim using the diminished chord to give you the sound of D7b9 and the maj6 chords as passing chords. G6 would sound like sus9/13 resolving to the b9 sound, whereas Bb6 implies the sound of sus#9b13 going to the b9.

You can also play melodic lines that achieve the same effect by playing maj6/dim bebop scales inside-out. Play the notes of the diminished chord on the beat and the maj6 chord off the beat. I saw Lorne Lofsky explain this during a Master Class at York University once and my mind was officially blown - it took me years to recover. I'm just sharing his idea, I can't take credit for it.

The maj6/dim series gives you instant access to all the sounds of the major scale and the harmonic major scale at the same time, plus all the hybrid chords that can be created by drawing notes form both scales. Min6/dim gives you the same possibilities using melodic minor ascending & harmonic minor. It's a guaranteed goldmine if you're willing to dig & get a little dirty.

**paynow** · 05-08-2013, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by stv

Another interesting approach to D7 would be to use either G6dim or Bb6dim using the diminished chord to give you the sound of D7b9 and the maj6 chords as passing chords. G6 would sound like sus9/13 resolving to the b9 sound, whereas Bb6 implies the sound of sus#9b13 going to the b9.

You can also play melodic lines that achieve the same effect by playing maj6/dim bebop scales inside-out. Play the notes of the diminished chord on the beat and the maj6 chord off the beat. I saw Lorne Lofsky explain this during a Master Class at York University once and my mind was officially blown - it took me years to recover. I'm just sharing his idea, I can't take credit for it.

The maj6/dim series gives you instant access to all the sounds of the major scale and the harmonic major scale at the same time, plus all the hybrid chords that can be created by drawing notes form both scales. Min6/dim gives you the same possibilities using melodic minor ascending & harmonic minor. It's a guaranteed goldmine if you're willing to dig & get a little dirty.

An excellent application. I'm going to work through this.

Another thing I do is to just take the scales and play melodies chordally with them. I'll run them up and down in straight time and then just have fun with it, to really get them under my fingers. All the different voicings and inversions.

**Melodic Dreamer** · 09-04-2018, 11:40 AM

I kind of understand the primise but would like to see something like ATTYA written out in the Barry Harris method to kinda see a visual.

**grahambop** · 09-04-2018, 12:13 PM

This guy applies it to the first few bars of ATTYA.

**Melodic Dreamer** · 09-04-2018, 12:22 PM

Thanks, will definitely check this out.

**yotsn** · 09-04-2018, 12:24 PM

I do think we are missing more examples showing standards with 251s. There is usually a backlash when someone asks for it, but I think it would be helpful - showing the movement aspect in particular.

**joe2758** · 09-04-2018, 12:24 PM

yeah that guy is legit, i might approach him for skype lessons

**grahambop** · 09-04-2018, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by yotsn

I do think we are missing more examples showing standards with 251s. There is usually a backlash when someone asks for it, but I think it would be helpful - showing the movement aspect in particular.

Well here’s that thing again I posted before (My Romance), some 251’s in this.

Barry Harris chord movements - My Romance

**grahambop** · 09-04-2018, 01:41 PM

I also did this comping example on a standard, more 251 stuff here.

**grahambop** · 09-04-2018, 01:43 PM

And the same guy did comping on How High the Moon. So more examples!

**christianm77** · 09-04-2018, 04:27 PM

Cool find in the archives

**wzpgsr** · 09-08-2018, 12:03 AM

My aha moment in reading this thread: Alan K. says something about using the borrowed alto note on the maj6 as the ii in a ii-V-i. This is something I’ve “heard” in my experimentation with this particular borrowing structure, but didn’t quite understand the implications. Now, after re-reading the thread, I think I can more smartly apply those borrowed-alto-note chord sounds instead of just moving them around without much logic.