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  1. #1

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    Hi everybody, I m searching for a book or method about this aproach. any sugestion? thanks to all

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Mel Bay has a book on this. The author is Tom Floyd. It's called:

    Mel Bay Quartal Harmony & Voicings for Guitar .

    If you look on Amazon you can see the table of contents plus a few pages

  4. #3

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    One way of learning quartal harmony is to start out with simple three note voicings and move from there.

    Start on any note, stack fourths on top and move it through the scale.

    Starting on A on the third string and playing in the key of C major, the fourths become

    ADG. The next 'root' note in the scale is B so the next chord becomes BEA

    The next is C so... CFB, then DGC, EAD , FBE, GCF and then ADG again.

    Learn these on strings 123,234,345 &456. Then make them 4 note, 5 note and 6 note chords by combining forms fourth wise across the neck.


    Also noteworthy is that like tertial harmony these chords also have inversions.

    ADG becomes DGA. (4-2) then GAD. (2-4)

    Learn these as well on string sets 123, 234 etc. On these inversions add the top note of the inversion an octave lower to make it a 4 note chord (DGA would be ADGA).

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW400
    Mel Bay has a book on this. The author is Tom Floyd. It's called:

    Mel Bay Quartal Harmony & Voicings for Guitar .

    If you look on Amazon you can see the table of contents plus a few pages
    excellent book — lays it out very logically............ well, it works for me

  6. #5

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    One thing I never understood: Do they actual chords haven specific names?
    (like Cmaj7 or Ab-7b5 do)
    I've never saw such names, I'm just curious..

    all the best, Tobias

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Korux
    One thing I never understood: Do they actual chords haven specific names?
    (like Cmaj7 or Ab-7b5 do)
    I've never saw such names, I'm just curious..
    Most often the chords are named according to how they function. So for example;

    D
    A
    E

    over a C bass would be called a quartal voicing of a C6/9.

    john

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Korux
    One thing I never understood: Do they actual chords haven specific names?
    (like Cmaj7 or Ab-7b5 do)
    I've never saw such names, I'm just curious..

    all the best, Tobias
    Further to what John C said, they tend to work off the root. The Real Book tended to call there 7 sus 4 chords.

    One thing I've done with the three string variety and their inversions was to move them chromatically over the same bass note and then see what tertial chords I can come up with.

    ex. BEA over G (G6/9) to CFBb over G (Gmi11) to C#F#B over G (Gma7#11) and keep going up chromatically.

    There are three types of 3-note quartal chords in 'root' postion (meaning 4+4 stacked) in the major scale. They are

    P4 P4 or DFA
    P4 A4 or CFB (A= augmented)
    A4 P4 or FBE

    When you do these in the harmonic minor or melodic you also get to add a D4 or diminished 4 which is a major 3rd (G# C F ex. for A harm minor)

    The 4 note ones are widely used as well especially FBEA for example. A4 P4 P4 . This one works for a whole bunch of sounds such as:

    Fma7b5 (#11)
    G13
    Dmi13
    Bm11b5
    E11b9/F
    Ami9#5
    Db7#9#5
    Last edited by JohnW400; 06-08-2009 at 09:06 AM.

  9. #8

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    In a purely practical context I tend to use two shapes for these:

    G6/9

    -3
    -3
    -2
    -2
    -x
    -x

    -x
    -3
    -2
    -2
    -2
    -x

    If I was comping over a tonic chord, I would use these shapes with the top note of the chord being either the root, 9th, 5th or 6th. So for a Gmaj7 I could play the first shape with the root on top, move it up two frets so the 9th (A) is on top, move up to the 9th fret to put the 5th (D) on top or to the 11th fret so that the 6th (E) is on top. All of these give different versions of Gmaj with various extensions.

    Hope this helps

  10. #9

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    I've got a very good DVD by Corey Christiansen called Quartal Harmony:Modern jazz Comping & Voicings. Great intro to quartal voicings Available from Mel Bay.

  11. #10

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    May I just add that.. In quarter harmony an occassional Major 3rd is more 'pleasing to the ear' if you know what I mean

  12. #11

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    There's a basic tutorial on the website:

    Quartal Guitar Chords, Harmony & Voicings

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW400
    Mel Bay has a book on this. The author is Tom Floyd. It's called:

    Mel Bay Quartal Harmony & Voicings for Guitar .

    If you look on Amazon you can see the table of contents plus a few pages
    I have this book (Quartal Harmony & Voicings for Guitar by Tom Floyd) too and I highly recommend it. I've checked out a couple other quartal harmony instruction materials and found this book to be the best.

    The others I checked out:

    1) Creative Comping Concepts for Jazz Guitar by Mark Boling (book) - There's only a small section on quartal harmony, so it's not really a
    focus.

    2) Quartal Harmony: Modern Jazz Comping & Voicings by Corey Christiansen (video) - This is a good, specific lesson on quartal harmony, it's chord forms, it's fingerings and applying them. Only thing is it's very, very short.

  14. #13

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    Hi!

    I have been reading books of harmony to understand this system and have deduced that with the chords of fourths there are two systems to work:



    1-Replacing typical chords of third (with his tensions) and grouping these notes in intervals of 4a. It represents that you play 'normal' chords with the sonority of 4a.

    According to the chord that wants to be replaced there will play a chord of 4 notes in intérvalos of 4J from:

    7th Chord to replace ----------------4th chord

    C7M ----------------------------- E4, F#4, A4, B4
    Cm7--------------------------------C4, D4, G4
    C7-----------------------------------E4, A4
    C7 alt-------------------------------Eb4, Bb4
    Cm7b5--------------------------------C4





    2-Harmonizing the notes of any scale or mode based on 4th superposed.

    In this case of any scale there were formed the chords of every degree superposing the diatonic notes in intervals of 4th. The chords that contain the tritone can't played.

    So, with chords of 4 notes, it's the result:

    Mode ---------------------Chords
    jonian---------------------II, III, VI, VII
    dorian---------------------I, II, V, VI
    phrigian---------------------I, IV, V, VII
    lidian-----------------------III, IV, VI, VII
    mixolidian------------------II, III, V, VI
    eolian----------------------I, II, IV, V
    locrian-------------------- I, III, IV, VII






    This is more or less what I have compiled on some books of theory having read myself .. now it is necessary to have the most important thing, to practise it and surrender of this sonority.

    I would like that the people who has more experience were commenting on me if more or less I go for the good way..


    Thank you very much and excuse me for my english...

  15. #14

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    I was wondering how one can approach comping on songs like So What or Impressions besides using quartals. Let's say you're grooving on So What using quartals based on the dorian, and you want to move on to a different sound -- but not the "vanilla" sounds of, say, Dmin7 at the 5th position. What chord voicings do you personally use in these cases? Thanks for responding, bro...

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by orasnon
    Great stuff!! I was wondering how one can approach comping on songs like So What or Impressions besides using quartals. Let's say you're grooving on So What using quartals based on the dorian, and you want to move on to a different sound -- but not the "vanilla" sounds of, say, Dmin7 at the 5th position.
    Play Dmin7 somewhere OTHER than 5th position.

    One thing you can do in addition to using quartal voicings is to occasionally throw in chords that are diatonic to D Dorian. You don't want to overdo this, because if you play too many "typical" chords the modal sound gets lost, but throwing them in every once in a while is good. For example, I like to play a Dmin7 once in a while, just to reassert that you're in that key - after all, quartal voicings sound ambiguous. Better yet, use a Dmin6 (or Bmin7b5, same notes) to bring out the dorian sound. I also like to throw around an E minor triad, since the notes of that chord (the 9, 11 and 13 of D dorian) are the notes that tend to be played less frequently by the soloist.

  17. #16

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    When I studied The Jazz Piano Book the author made very specific points about the range of the voicings... Think about it; the guitar is limited in comparison, but players often feel like they have full access to it's range. If there is a bassist, a jazzer usually backs away from the extreme low end, but that still might not be the optimum range for the chord at hand. Pianists consciously limit their left hand to a particular octave range when comping basic changes. We might do well to follow suit as well. Of course there are billions of exceptions, but it is worth a thought.

  18. #17

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    Ok, I threw this lesson together to show a few fourth related voicings... and some other favorites. Hope it helps!


  19. #18

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    Nice lesson. It is strangely relaxing... Thanks for posting.

  20. #19

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    On page 22 of Hal Leonard's Jazz Method Book it says "Quartal chords built exclusively with fourths are called pure fourths. These voicings may typically be substituted for minor chords."

    However, of the 6 chord diagrams below, the 4th chord along is 9th, 5th, root and 11th none of which are indicative of a minor chord. Also the 5th chord along has 5th, root, 11th and b7th. The only of these chords that have b3rd are the first three and the last one.In which case "may typically be substituted" but not necessarily? the ones without a b3rd could substitute others?

    Then it goes to say that "Quartal chords built with fourths plus another interval are called diatonic fourths. These voicings may be typically be substituted for major or dominant chords." Then there's 2 of the 8 chord diagrams noted as being pure 4ths while it looks like they missed the F7sus4 diagram becuase that arrangement is pure 4ths too.

    Is it me or the book? Any input, even if it just your view and are not competely sure anything that can help my gather more about this much appreciated.

  21. #20

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    C F B ..... D G C ..... E A D ..... F B E ..... G C F ..... A D G ..... B E A

    C F B E ..... D G C F ..... E A D G ..... F B E A ..... G C F B ..... A D G C ..... B E A D

    Fourth chords, will lack one or more chord tones of standard chords that were built in 3rds.
    That is part of their charm, the ambiguity. They present a mix of basic chord tones + extensions.

    Play each 4th chord in relation to each diatonic root to evaluate what colors each one offers
    as a representative of Cma7, Dm7, Em7, Fma7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5.

  22. #21

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    This is a nice example of a diatonic progression up the scale played with quartal voicings substituted. Substitution just if you assume triads are the norm, of course.
    David

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    On page 22 it says "Quartal chords built exclusively with fourths are called pure fourths. These voicings may typically be substituted for minor chords."

    However, of the 6 chord diagrams below, the 4th chord along is 9th, 5th, root and 11th none of which are indicative of a minor chord. Also the 5th chord along has 5th, root, 11th and b7th. The only of these chords that have b3rd are the first three and the last one.In which case "may typically be substituted" but not necessarily? the ones without a b3rd could substitute others?
    IMO, if you include the 11th, that means they can't sub for major chords, because an 11th is dissonant with a M3 below. Therefore - by elimination - they imply minor 3rds.
    And a typical usage of quartal chords would be mixed in with voicings including the 3rd anyway.
    That's my guess on the thinking anyhow.

    Of course, it doesn't rule out a 5-11-b7 voicing working as a V7sus4...

    And you can have quartal chords which include the major 3rd, such as a rootless 6/9...
    E.g., EADG could sub for Dm7 (and Am7 and Em7?), but it could also stand for C major. And maybe even F or G major, seeing as all 4 notes are chord tones or consonant extensions on either chord?
    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    Then it goes to say that "Quartal chords built with fourths plus another interval are called diatonic fourths. These voicings may be typically be substituted for major or dominant chords." Then there's 2 of the 8 chord diagrams noted as being pure 4ths while it looks like they missed the F7sus4 diagram because that arrangement is pure 4ths too.
    Hmm... Seems to be a somewhat lazy explanation.
    Firstly, I don't understand the use of "diatonic" to describe those chords. "Diatonic" means "belonging to the key" or "to the scale".
    You can have diatonic quartal chords built entirely of perfect 4ths. You can have diatonic chords built with perfect 4ths and an augmented 4th (still "quartal" strictly speaking, although maybe not too useful). And you can have diatonic chords built with 4ths - of either kind - and "another interval" (2nd? 3rd? 5th? 6th?). And lastly you can have "quartal chords built with fourths plus another interval" which are not diatonic (if they include a note from outside the tonal context).
    So that's a poor use of terminology which doesn't bode well for the rest of the book. (The ideas and concepts may be great, but it's equally important to explain them clearly.)

    Also - without seeing the book - if you're right about the overlap between the chords shown, or other ambiguity, that seems to need further explanation.

    As bako says, the charm of quartal chords is their ambiguity - their root identity is ambiguous, because the upper note of each 4th is an acoustic root, so they have several roots, the highest one having the strongest theoretical claim - but then it's on the top, which is an unnatural place for a root .
    This is why they were chosen as the basic form for modal jazz, because that was attempting to escape the functional harmony of keys, which is characterised by tertian chords.
    That doesn't mean you can't apply quartal chords in key-based progressions, but they do have the effect of blurring the harmonic function of the chords. It's a cool effect, but it's important to understand that's what's happening. (It's not an effect you want all the time .)
    Last edited by JonR; 05-15-2015 at 09:51 AM.

  24. #23

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    The first thing I'd say is that Quartal Voicings are often used in modal contexts so they're intentionally ambiguous. The other thing is that their explanation is weird ... One can be used for a major chord and another cant? Stack perfect fourths and then play them built off the 7th, 6th or 3rd of a major chord. Great voicings for Major chords. Seems like that book took an easy way out with that.

  25. #24

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    As for the definitions ... I've heard that before though I dont use it. They refer to Quartal Voicings for stacks of PERFECT fourths. Diatonic Quartal refers to stacks of diatonic fourths ... ie voicings that contain the tritone or diminished fourth (melodic minor).

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    As for the definitions ... I've heard that before though I dont use it. They refer to Quartal Voicings for stacks of PERFECT fourths. Diatonic Quartal refers to stacks of diatonic fourths ... ie voicings that contain the tritone or diminished fourth (melodic minor).
    That makes sense - but it's not what the quote from the book above is saying. (He might have meant that, but he didn't manage to write it. )

  27. #26
    Quartal chords can be used as major chords. We all use one eg in a C6/9 chord, where E/A/D/G is a cluster of stacked up 4s with a strong major element. Yes, it does not start with the tonic, and so this does not contradict what was said above. But still seems worth to mention it. I am experimenting with 4th clusters since many years, and there is not one harmonic function that could not be expressed by those in more than one way, very efficiently. Many of those quartal voicings are thereby derived from scales, and are thus diatonic, not just perfect 4ths. Limit yourself to perfect fourths and u leave out most of the playground...

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    IMO, if you include the 11th, that means they can't sub for major chords, because an 11th is dissonant with a M3 below. Therefore - by elimination - they imply minor 3rds.

    Of course! A shame that didn’t occur to me, given that 11th chords omit the 3rd.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    And you can have quartal chords which include the major 3rd, such as a rootless 6/9...
    E.g., EADG could sub for Dm7 (and Am7 and Em7?), but it could also stand for C major. And maybe even F or G major, seeing as all 4 notes are chord tones or consonant extensions on either chord?
    Cool, so as you imply, as long as there are no 4ths in relation to the root, or the 4ths give extensions in relation to the root then it can be substituting for a major chord.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    So that's a poor use of terminology which doesn't bode well for the rest of the book. (The ideas and concepts may be great, but it's equally important to explain them clearly.)
    That wouldn’t surprise me. Track 8 of this book has a key sig of F min when it should be Bb min. I still think it’s a good book. Stuff like this when you’re learning can be a misnomer if you get stuck wondering if it’s you.

    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    One can be used for a major chord and another cant? Stack perfect fourths and then play them built off the 7th, 6th or 3rd of a major chord. Great voicings for Major chords. Seems like that book took an easy way out with that.
    I was a little sceptical where they used the term “may typically be” when describing how pure 4ths can be substituted for minor chords. It’s almost as though they were aware you could stack 4ths from other intervals while not including the root note (as you mention) but didn’t want to abandon readers who might not grasp that concept without necessitating further explanation, while at the same time covering themselves from being wrong to whoever would notice.

    I wonder if quartal chords are specific to the guitar due to ease of fingering, 4ths being on the same fret / 1 fret away. You couldn’t do the same with 2nds, 5ths, or 6ths, which theoretically would give some other ambiguous sound?

    The part of my brain that deals with this has only just back into the office and is sneering at me a little bit for adding that last bit.

  29. #28

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    watching this...I usually find a place for them in major scale harmony, more flexible uses in chord/melody gtr.

  30. #29

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    Just went through this Tritone Chord Substitution For Jazz Guitar and notice some nice "quartal substitutions" (is that what you'd call them?) are used such as for Cmaj7 on the "Tritone ii V I" chords section.

    On page 28 of the Hal Leonard Jazz Method book it talks about tritone subs but also has an exercise which uses major 7th chords as the tritone subs rather than Dom7 chords. As follows...

    Original Sequence: Gmaj7 E7 Am7 D7 Gma7

    With subs: Gmaj7 Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7 Abmaj7 Gmaj7


    My interpretation
    of that would have normally been: Starting in the key of Gmaj then going to the parallel Gmin key with the bIIImaj7 (Bbmaj7) and bVImaj7 (Ebmaj7) with a passing chord of Abmaj7 before resolving back to Gmaj7.

    Yet in the book, it is under the header of tritone substitution, which it is as far as the root notes go (e.g. Bbmaj7's root note of Bb is a tritone away from E7's root note of E), yet there being no b7th in maj7 chords means the whole tritone is not carried through. Tritone or not it's right to me in one way or another because it sounds pretty good. Google gives me no joy on this.

    So I tried it with maj7 chords on these exercises Tritone Chord Substitution For Jazz Guitar and am on the fence whether it sounds nice except for as the bIImaj7 before the Imaj7 like a passing chord.

    Sorry this isn't about quartal chords, the question was regarding content from the same book so wasn't sure to keep it on the same thread or not. Any views much appreciated.
    Last edited by Arpeggio; 06-06-2015 at 06:30 AM.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    Just went through this Tritone Chord Substitution For Jazz Guitar and notice some nice "quartal substitutions" (is that what you'd call them?) are used such as for Cmaj7 on the "Tritone ii V I" chords section.

    On page 28 of the Hal Leonard Jazz Method book it talks about tritone subs but also has an exercise which uses major 7th chords as the tritone subs rather than Dom7 chords. As follows...

    Original Sequence: Gmaj7 E7 Am7 D7 Gma7

    With subs: Gmaj7 Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7 Abmaj7 Gmaj7
    Strictly speaking, those are not "tritone subs". The roots may be a tritone away, but the replacements lack the inner tritone (3rd-7th) that retains the original chord function.
    Of course, it's still a "substitution", and works well - usually known as the "Tadd Dameron turnaround", after the bop arranger/composer - it's only the tritone name that's wrong (misleading). (Min7 chords are not subject to tritone subs either, because they don't have an inner tritone.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    Yet in the book, it is under the header of tritone substitution, which it is as far as the root notes go (e.g. Bbmaj7's root note of Bb is a tritone away from E7's root note of E), yet there being no b7th in maj7 chords means the whole tritone is not carried through.
    Exactly.
    The "tritone sub" phrase is often used too loosely (IMO), as in the wiki entry for this turnaround:
    Tadd Dameron turnaround - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As you say, it works well, sounds good, but any proper theoretical analysis of it can't be based (fully) on the tritone sub idea. If they were dom7s, yes - but the maj7s make a big difference.
    The answer is in the voice-leading, the subtle ways it differs from the usual dom7 replacements.

  32. #31
    Excellent video from Jody Fisher on Quartal Harmony.



    He uses pure fourths. When do we use diatonic fourths?

    Seems like it has been discussed here, though not conclusive?

  33. #32

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    I heard that Herbie Hancock said that he was jealous of guitar players because quartal chords were much easier on guitar than piano.
    There's an excellent discussion elsewhere on this forum on quartal harmony

  34. #33

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    Problem with quartals... oh man I miss the healthy debate... is that they are too shape based on the guitar. Yeah, they are easier to grab... but they are harder to control cause we go on auto pilot.

    You gotta listen to McCoy and company to learn how to use 'em well. Don't rely on visuals, use your ear.
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-23-2015 at 09:33 PM.

  35. #34

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    I prefer the sound of inverted quartal chords and mixed quartal/tertiary chords.


    Here's a nice sounding inverted quartal voicing I use:

  36. #35

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    GuyBoden,
    Very cool sound.

    Perhaps you would like the sound of Bill Evans 11th chords to where there's a 3rd and a 4th in the chord.
    Example: For a G11 chord there would be these 4 notes... G F B C where G is the root, F is the b7, B is the 3rd and C is the 4th or 11th. A mixture of consonance and dissonance within a chord sounds pretty cool too. Bob Weir from the Grateful Dead uses this chord frequently!

  37. #36

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    Here's some McCoy Tyner type voicings:

    (Some are impossible to play on guitar, so you have to use common sense.)


  38. #37

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    Another nice sounding Quartal chord I use is a stack of 5ths with a major 3rd.

    A stack of 5ths is really just an inversion of 4ths. (F,C,G is inverted G,C,F)

    To give it a name, the chord (shown below) could be called a "FMaj add 9 #11 no 3rd".

    Sounds nice to my ears with Lydian scale improv.