The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    Quartal chords can be used as major chords. We all use one eg in a C6/9 chord, where E/A/D/G is a cluster of stacked up 4s with a strong major element. Yes, it does not start with the tonic, and so this does not contradict what was said above. But still seems worth to mention it. I am experimenting with 4th clusters since many years, and there is not one harmonic function that could not be expressed by those in more than one way, very efficiently. Many of those quartal voicings are thereby derived from scales, and are thus diatonic, not just perfect 4ths. Limit yourself to perfect fourths and u leave out most of the playground...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    IMO, if you include the 11th, that means they can't sub for major chords, because an 11th is dissonant with a M3 below. Therefore - by elimination - they imply minor 3rds.

    Of course! A shame that didn’t occur to me, given that 11th chords omit the 3rd.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    And you can have quartal chords which include the major 3rd, such as a rootless 6/9...
    E.g., EADG could sub for Dm7 (and Am7 and Em7?), but it could also stand for C major. And maybe even F or G major, seeing as all 4 notes are chord tones or consonant extensions on either chord?
    Cool, so as you imply, as long as there are no 4ths in relation to the root, or the 4ths give extensions in relation to the root then it can be substituting for a major chord.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    So that's a poor use of terminology which doesn't bode well for the rest of the book. (The ideas and concepts may be great, but it's equally important to explain them clearly.)
    That wouldn’t surprise me. Track 8 of this book has a key sig of F min when it should be Bb min. I still think it’s a good book. Stuff like this when you’re learning can be a misnomer if you get stuck wondering if it’s you.

    Quote Originally Posted by pamosmusic
    One can be used for a major chord and another cant? Stack perfect fourths and then play them built off the 7th, 6th or 3rd of a major chord. Great voicings for Major chords. Seems like that book took an easy way out with that.
    I was a little sceptical where they used the term “may typically be” when describing how pure 4ths can be substituted for minor chords. It’s almost as though they were aware you could stack 4ths from other intervals while not including the root note (as you mention) but didn’t want to abandon readers who might not grasp that concept without necessitating further explanation, while at the same time covering themselves from being wrong to whoever would notice.

    I wonder if quartal chords are specific to the guitar due to ease of fingering, 4ths being on the same fret / 1 fret away. You couldn’t do the same with 2nds, 5ths, or 6ths, which theoretically would give some other ambiguous sound?

    The part of my brain that deals with this has only just back into the office and is sneering at me a little bit for adding that last bit.

  4. #28

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    watching this...I usually find a place for them in major scale harmony, more flexible uses in chord/melody gtr.

  5. #29

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    Just went through this Tritone Chord Substitution For Jazz Guitar and notice some nice "quartal substitutions" (is that what you'd call them?) are used such as for Cmaj7 on the "Tritone ii V I" chords section.

    On page 28 of the Hal Leonard Jazz Method book it talks about tritone subs but also has an exercise which uses major 7th chords as the tritone subs rather than Dom7 chords. As follows...

    Original Sequence: Gmaj7 E7 Am7 D7 Gma7

    With subs: Gmaj7 Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7 Abmaj7 Gmaj7


    My interpretation
    of that would have normally been: Starting in the key of Gmaj then going to the parallel Gmin key with the bIIImaj7 (Bbmaj7) and bVImaj7 (Ebmaj7) with a passing chord of Abmaj7 before resolving back to Gmaj7.

    Yet in the book, it is under the header of tritone substitution, which it is as far as the root notes go (e.g. Bbmaj7's root note of Bb is a tritone away from E7's root note of E), yet there being no b7th in maj7 chords means the whole tritone is not carried through. Tritone or not it's right to me in one way or another because it sounds pretty good. Google gives me no joy on this.

    So I tried it with maj7 chords on these exercises Tritone Chord Substitution For Jazz Guitar and am on the fence whether it sounds nice except for as the bIImaj7 before the Imaj7 like a passing chord.

    Sorry this isn't about quartal chords, the question was regarding content from the same book so wasn't sure to keep it on the same thread or not. Any views much appreciated.
    Last edited by Arpeggio; 06-06-2015 at 06:30 AM.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    Just went through this Tritone Chord Substitution For Jazz Guitar and notice some nice "quartal substitutions" (is that what you'd call them?) are used such as for Cmaj7 on the "Tritone ii V I" chords section.

    On page 28 of the Hal Leonard Jazz Method book it talks about tritone subs but also has an exercise which uses major 7th chords as the tritone subs rather than Dom7 chords. As follows...

    Original Sequence: Gmaj7 E7 Am7 D7 Gma7

    With subs: Gmaj7 Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7 Abmaj7 Gmaj7
    Strictly speaking, those are not "tritone subs". The roots may be a tritone away, but the replacements lack the inner tritone (3rd-7th) that retains the original chord function.
    Of course, it's still a "substitution", and works well - usually known as the "Tadd Dameron turnaround", after the bop arranger/composer - it's only the tritone name that's wrong (misleading). (Min7 chords are not subject to tritone subs either, because they don't have an inner tritone.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Arpeggio
    Yet in the book, it is under the header of tritone substitution, which it is as far as the root notes go (e.g. Bbmaj7's root note of Bb is a tritone away from E7's root note of E), yet there being no b7th in maj7 chords means the whole tritone is not carried through.
    Exactly.
    The "tritone sub" phrase is often used too loosely (IMO), as in the wiki entry for this turnaround:
    Tadd Dameron turnaround - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As you say, it works well, sounds good, but any proper theoretical analysis of it can't be based (fully) on the tritone sub idea. If they were dom7s, yes - but the maj7s make a big difference.
    The answer is in the voice-leading, the subtle ways it differs from the usual dom7 replacements.

  7. #31
    Excellent video from Jody Fisher on Quartal Harmony.



    He uses pure fourths. When do we use diatonic fourths?

    Seems like it has been discussed here, though not conclusive?

  8. #32

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    I heard that Herbie Hancock said that he was jealous of guitar players because quartal chords were much easier on guitar than piano.
    There's an excellent discussion elsewhere on this forum on quartal harmony

  9. #33

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    Problem with quartals... oh man I miss the healthy debate... is that they are too shape based on the guitar. Yeah, they are easier to grab... but they are harder to control cause we go on auto pilot.

    You gotta listen to McCoy and company to learn how to use 'em well. Don't rely on visuals, use your ear.
    Last edited by Irez87; 10-23-2015 at 09:33 PM.

  10. #34

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    I prefer the sound of inverted quartal chords and mixed quartal/tertiary chords.


    Here's a nice sounding inverted quartal voicing I use:

  11. #35

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    GuyBoden,
    Very cool sound.

    Perhaps you would like the sound of Bill Evans 11th chords to where there's a 3rd and a 4th in the chord.
    Example: For a G11 chord there would be these 4 notes... G F B C where G is the root, F is the b7, B is the 3rd and C is the 4th or 11th. A mixture of consonance and dissonance within a chord sounds pretty cool too. Bob Weir from the Grateful Dead uses this chord frequently!

  12. #36

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    Here's some McCoy Tyner type voicings:

    (Some are impossible to play on guitar, so you have to use common sense.)


  13. #37

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    Another nice sounding Quartal chord I use is a stack of 5ths with a major 3rd.

    A stack of 5ths is really just an inversion of 4ths. (F,C,G is inverted G,C,F)

    To give it a name, the chord (shown below) could be called a "FMaj add 9 #11 no 3rd".

    Sounds nice to my ears with Lydian scale improv.