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  1. #1

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    Who out there has one of Randy Vincent's books. The Drop 2 Book or Three Note Voicings & Beyond?

    I'm curious if one is a better start than the other, where they might overlap (if they do), etc. I'm leaning towards starting with the Drop 2 Book to further develop my limited Drop 2 knowledge. I play drop 2s quite a bit, but I don't have them down as much as I'd like (more inversions, voice leading, soloing with them, etc).

    But then I saw the 3 Note Voicing book. I might just get both, but wanted to see how they compare.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    In my opinion Drop-2 are more important voicings to master, because you can use them with any right-hand technique you'd like. many drop 3 voicings needs to be played in akward fingerings when using a pick, some you can't really use without the fingers (or some sort of hybrid picking). So I'd say, just because of technical matters of the guitar, go with drop 2 first.

    That's on the voicings themself. I don't know these books, so can't help with that.

  4. #3

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    For drop 2s (and everything else in all string sets) I would get 'Chord Connections' by Robert Brown. Combine that with your standards and a willingness to use your new chords in those standards and you need nothing else. Randy's book is ok but Brown's worked better for me

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by hed_b94
    ... many drop 3 voicings needs to be played in akward fingerings when using a pick, some you can't really use without the fingers (or some sort of hybrid picking). So I'd say, just because of technical matters of the guitar, go with drop 2 first.
    Agree, but the other book mentioned was about 3-note voicings, not drop-3 voicings. I have both, and they are both great. The book on 3-note voicings is very useful even without the drop-2 book, since those 3-note shell voicings can be used as a starting point for amost everything, both comping ands chord soloing, and they make excellent voice leading possible.

  6. #5

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    I have a ton of stuff that I am working on right now, but I added both of those books to my Christmas list! I have been working on a lot of improv stuff lately learning a lot of lines and working on my bebop chops and on Trane changes. By Christmas time I should be ready for a change of pace! ;-)

  7. #6

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    I have both books and they are great. Before I had these books, I was working out of Barry Galbraith's Guitar Comping book for a while. It's an amazing book and I am able to analyze most of the chord choices, but there wasn't any elaboration on the things played. I think that's all good and it didn't make me think less of the book at all.

    The Randy Vincent books have many examples and the how-to of it all. I think it's a great combination and everything is realistic. It all depends on what is resonating with you right now as a player.

  8. #7

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    The Drop 2 got delivered today.

    Any suggestions on the best way to go through to get the most out of it? I ask that because on an amazon review, I saw something about a recommendation on skipping to chapter 4 for practice after each section...or something along those lines.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinopass
    The Drop 2 got delivered today.

    Any suggestions on the best way to go through to get the most out of it? I ask that because on an amazon review, I saw something about a recommendation on skipping to chapter 4 for practice after each section...or something along those lines.
    I too have the book and the chords are beautiful. But I don't know how to use the book. What is the best way to learn, apply and practice the material?

  10. #9

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    I have both books an they are both excellent! I am going through them as I see something interesting from a voice-leading viewpoint. The concepts and study approaches are very thorough and easy to grasp. I like Randys' books and I don't know of any other books that are as well written for studying voicing concepts. There is a lot of really good study material here.

    wiz

  11. #10

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    Bret Willmotts book of harmonic extensions for guitar is an excellent study for guitar voicings and comping!You will find different combinations of chordal extensions and combinations for guitar playing!

  12. #11

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    Thank you Jam8, the book you mentioned is excellent! I just got it today and my quick review tells me it is very good for voicing studies.

    wiz

  13. #12

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    Youre welcome.... there are so many books out there that can really overwhelm us due to the information explosion of the internet,but the important thing is to get the useful information that will suit our way of playing music....HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL!

  14. #13

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    You guys have peaked my curiosity here. Nothing like a well recommended technique book to add to my collection. I haven't posted much on JG. I must say that I really enjoy the continuous learning and improvement ethos that I see hear from all of you. You are all very helpful.

  15. #14
    I was looking at Bret Willmotts book of harmonic extensions on Amazon, it looks really good. Anyone have it and can you expand on it a little more, like why you like it or don't like it.
    thx
    Ken

  16. #15

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    I have the book and love it. Even within the limitations it sets it goes much farther and in greater detail than guitar books generally do.
    There are many overwhelming charts and I am not convinced that the idea of superimposition of this chord in this context
    yields new harmony X is the easiest and clearest way to teach the info but I can say that it changed the way I deal with voicings and melodies as well.
    I believe it is a worthwhile purchase even if it takes 3 years to be able to deal with it's density.

  17. #16
    Hey Bako,

    Thanks for the insight, so does it help comping more or chord melody in yoru opinion? From what i've seen on the examples on amazon it looks like it adds alot of chord movement?
    Ken

  18. #17

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    Hey guys: How about starting a separate thread on topic for Bret Willmott's book? I don't have it (yet) but I just got Randy Vincent's and would like to see this thread develop into more depth and perhaps help with study.

  19. #18
    Good idea Wisdom, i think i'm going to purchase this book

  20. #19

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    I own and like them both.

  21. #20
    Nuff Said Guest
    Members that have used the book, what are your views about:"Three-Note Voicings and Beyond" by randy vincent

    Thanks in advance
    Nuff

    Books by Jazz Guitarist San Francisco Bay Area Performer Randy Vincent

  22. #21

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    I haven't gotten anywhere yet in the Drop 2 book. It's packed with lot of great information. But the way it's presented isn't clicking with me for some reason.

  23. #22

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    Hallpass, you might try the "barry harris method for guitar" which covers the same voicings as the randy vincent book but lays everything out with a very different theoretical underpinning. I too had the drop 2 book and it didn't quite click until I started on Barry Harris.

    Nuff said: the three note voicings book covers alot more ground than the drop 2 book. Basically it's everything else you need for comping that's not drop 2. Closed and open triads, shell voicings with extensions, cuartal voicings, drop 2 minus one note, etc... These two books alone are a lifetime's worth of knowledge!

  24. #23

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    I was thinking about this same question today, and found this thread.

    My take on it is that you are going to learn both, so start with less complexity: three note voicings. They will give you a good foundation, as many drop voicings are just triads and 1, 3, 7 shells with another note added.

    Put another way, a three note chord is 3/4 of a four note chord. Overlapping certain triads and 1, 3, 7 shells gives you a four note seventh chord.

    I suppose the exceptions would be if you don't like the sound of three note chords, or you need fuller voicings immediately.

    Is my thinking overly reductive?
    Last edited by Jonzo; 09-07-2012 at 04:27 PM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo
    I was thinking about this same question today, and found this thread.

    My take on it is that you are going to learn both, so start with less complexity: three note voicings. They will give you a good foundation, as many drop voicings are just triads and 1, 3, 7 shells with another note added.

    Put another way, a three note chord is 3/4 of a four note chord. Overlapping certain triads and 1, 3, 7 shells gives you a four note seventh chord.

    I suppose the exceptions would be if you don't like the sound of three note chords, or you need fuller voicings immediately.

    Is my thinking overly reductive?
    I've ended up doing exactly the opposite. It seems to work best for me... I learn a tune in full 4 note voicings in drop 2 and 3. Then I just eliminate one finger for quick moveable shapes when dashing from one position to another in a chord melody or chord solo. In combination with shells, those reduced drop 2 shapes are enough to produce interesting motion during comping, though. In other words, you could get by with pretty convincing and harmonically rich comping with only 3 note voicings. So if it's easier to start there for you, then go ahead!

    K

  26. #25

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    I am sure you can go from 4 to 3, but I think from a cognitive perspective, building from simple to complex makes sense.

    I did a little learning experiment with myself. I took several unfamiliar four note chords and divided them randomly into two groups of 7. In one group I spent 15 minutes going through repetitions of the 4 note chords. In the other group, I went through the triads, then the shells, and then the full chords, also for 15 minutes. When I tested myself at the end of the day. I was able to recall more of the 4 note chords from the group in which I started with three note chords, plus I knew the triads and shells.

  27. #26

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    Just curious--does anyone know if Vincent ever addressed the question?

    I have been working on the three-note chord book. He really is exceptional at explaining the concepts and gives great exercises with which to learn them.

  28. #27

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    Answering my own question here.

    The Drop 2 book is "Volume 2". It would seem that he is suggesting that "Three-Note Chords and Beyond" should be studied first.

  29. #28

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    Jonzo, I was under the impression that triads and shells were the same thing. Would you be so kind and explain to me the difference.

    Thanks
    edh

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo
    Just curious--does anyone know if Vincent ever addressed the question?

    I have been working on the three-note chord book. He really is exceptional at explaining the concepts and gives great exercises with which to learn them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo
    Answering my own question here.

    The Drop 2 book is "Volume 2". It would seem that he is suggesting that "Three-Note Chords and Beyond" should be studied first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo
    Answering my own question here.

    The Drop 2 book is "Volume 2". It would seem that he is suggesting that "Three-Note Chords and Beyond" should be studied first.
    In actual fact, the dop 2 book is "volume 1" and was published a few years before the three note voicings. Doesn't change the fact that one should find their own way to learn this material in the most convenient way.

  31. #30

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    I'd venture a guess that if you sent an e-mail to Randy, he'd answer your questions.

    For those that don't know him, he's an extraordinarily talented guitarist, and is something of a fixture out here in west Sonoma County. He was Julian Lage's guitar teacher from the time Julian was a preteen until he went off to college in New York. (He also taught my guitar teacher, Chris Pimentel, for several years at Sonoma State U.) I took a couple of lessons with Randy nearly two years ago, but I was nowhere near ready for him, and after his two-hour lessons, my head was about ready to explode with too much information. He is a great teacher for someone above my meager capabilities.

    (If you can't find his e-mail address, send me a PM and I'll provide it, but it should be readily available.)

  32. #31

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    I don't know if "shell" is an official musical term, but I understand triads to be full 3 note chords, with 1, 3, and 5, whereas shells drop one of the triad intervals to include a seventh, or other interval. I think some people even call 2 note chords a shell.

    Most often the 5 or 1 are dropped from a shell, because the 3 and 7 are required to imply the tonality of the full chord.

    For 3 note chords to sound "jazzy", shells would be employed more than triads.

  33. #32

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    As I understand it, 3 note voicings refers to any combination of 3 notes. Triads, 7th chord "reductions" and even shells can be considered 3 note voicings.

    Shells are a specific type of 3 note voicing that includes root, 3rd and 7th of the underlying chord. They are used as a basis for harmonically simple comping and structure and can be "Colorized" easily by adding upper register chord tones like 9ths, 11ths, 13, etc... They thus become 4 note voicings that include only the bare minimum (root, 3rd, 7th, color tone) of harmonic information to transmit complex chords.

    As Jonzo mentions, if you then drop the root from the resulting 4 note shell voicing, you have a small grip or shape that has 3 notes and a lot of harmonic content to get things going.

    K

  34. #33

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    Another thing I like about the idea of starting with three note voicings is it gets you away from the "more notes is better" school of jazz early.

    Of course, some guitarists never play 3 note voicings. I saw Peter Sprague play recently, and he used exactly four strings on every chord he played, all night. Not six, or five, or three. Four.

  35. #34

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    Nosoninja, jonzo, thanks for your time in explaining the differences.

  36. #35

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    There are a fair amount of sample pages on Amazon that can give you more information.

  37. #36

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    I too recently got the Randy Vincent Drop 2 book. It's not what I expected. In the introduction it says that this is an adaptation of Mark Levine - The Drop 2 Book. It's by no means a method book, more of a theory book with lots of ideas to work on. It does not teach you shapes for drop 2 chords, although these can be extracted from examples. It gives harmonisations of bebop scales using drop 2 chords on either bottom 4, middle 4 or top 4 strings. Major, Dominant, Natural Minor and Melodic Minor, plus altered. It gives standard harmonisations and "tweaked" - still not sure what that means.
    One frustration is that it doesn't seem to give any full examples of tunes harmonised with this bebop scale drop 2 system, although lots of short examples. Not quite sure what happens when the chord changes as opposed to when the key changes.
    My plan to use this book is to start learning the harmonised scales on the middle and top 4 strings (bottom 4 string versions are rather muddy as is stated in the book) and then try applying them in a chord melody fashion.
    Lots of writing out to be done as almost all examples are in C major.
    I think there is a lot of depth in the book but some frustrating omissions on how to apply this stuff to tunes in my opinion. I must say the harmonisations of the bebop scales sound great; I've never got sounds out of my guitar like this before.
    Rather a slim volume and the CDs are not much use to me - just playing the examples which I can do myself, albeit slowly.
    I would really be interested in how others are using this book.
    And I'm going to start saving my pennies for the 3 note voicing book which looks to have more meat (certainly more pages)

  38. #37

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    Both books by Vincent are excellent, very well presented in my opinion.

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subfeeder
    One frustration is that it doesn't seem to give any full examples of tunes harmonised with this bebop scale drop 2 system
    You must have a different book. Before he shows any scales Vincent gives a clear example of Drop2 via "Blue Bossa." This is one of the best books I've seen...it maps the path to good comping and chord melody playing. I've been playing the harmonized bebop scales all summer...

  40. #39

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    I have the 3 Note book, and I think it is very good. He is clear and concise, and gives very practical exercises that will get you up and running with the content.

  41. #40

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    I am working my way through3 books right now:

    !) 3-note Voicing & Beyond. I have read through the whole book and am now going through the exercises which are IMHO, excellent.
    2) I have also read through the Drop 2 book and am picking subjects of interest for study and practise.
    3) Last but not least, I have Bert Ligons' book and several of his articles and all are excellent studies. I have read through his books and articles and I also pick and choose subjects from his material for study.

    I usually try to use the things I am studying on songs (old standards) I am famliar with. This approach works well for me and keeps me ready for my next gig. If I had to pick only one book, the 3-note voicings book is the one I would pick because it has great exersizes for some of my weakest skill levels. I usually spend a minimum of 2-3 hours/day playing & studying guitar.

    wiz

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatswisdom
    You must have a different book. Before he shows any scales Vincent gives a clear example of Drop2 via "Blue Bossa."
    Indeed I must:

    http://www.shermusic.com/new/sample_pages/1883217644_1.pdf

    Only 4 bars in that example. Would love to be pointed to some full chorus examples if they exist.

    I'd be interested to know how people apply this concept using bebop scales. Do you change the scale around for each chord as I suspect or is there a more general way of applying over a larger chunk of a chord progression - for example by key? Also, what do you do for a II V I on the II chord - do you use a dominant chord scale over the whole II V?

  43. #42

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    Hey guys,
    I really like Vincent's Drop 2 book. I was wondering if someone could scan it and send it through e-mail or something. It's just I come from a place which it's very difficult to ship to. I understand that it's not fair but I thought worth a try. I really hope someone could help me.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetaman
    Hey guys,
    I really like Vincent's Drop 2 book. I was wondering if someone could scan it and send it through e-mail or something. It's just I come from a place which it's very difficult to ship to. I understand that it's not fair but I thought worth a try. I really hope someone could help me.
    Don't even bother with the excuses.

    Randy's email address is available via his website: Jazz Guitarist San Francisco Bay Area Performer Randy Vincent

    So why don't you email him and tell him that you have no regard for the hard work he's put into his materials, that it's too hard to ship things to your place, that you know it's unfair to pirate his book but you're going to try to obtain an illegitimate electronic copy anyway. Maybe, just maybe, he'll take pity on your unfortunate situation and send you a copy out of sympathy, but I wouldn't hold my breath..

  45. #44

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    Okay maybe there is an electronic version available, except for Kindle Edition. the PC version. Because I'm ready to pay just to have the book.

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetaman
    Okay maybe there is an electronic version available, except for Kindle Edition. the PC version. Because I'm ready to pay just to have the book.
    You can download a Kindle Reader for PC for free from Amazons website (and versions for for iOS and Android from App Store and Google Play respectively - also free).

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldane
    You can download a Kindle Reader for PC for free from Amazons website (and versions for for iOS and Android from App Store and Google Play respectively - also free).
    Thanks for help! I donwloaded the KIndle Reader. This solves all problems and the kindle version of the book is twice cheaper, which is good. Just one question: can you print pages from KIndle Reader? I think I won't have my computer with me all the time and want to have the book with me.
    Thanks!

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetaman
    Thanks for help! I donwloaded the KIndle Reader. This solves all problems and the kindle version of the book is twice cheaper, which is good. Just one question: can you print pages from KIndle Reader? I think I won't have my computer with me all the time and want to have the book with me.
    Thanks!
    You're welcome. It's always good to help a poor sinner back to the narrow track of virtue.

    I dont think you can print directly from Kindle, but at least you ought to be able to save a screendump (the prntscr key) to the clipboard and go on from there. An alternative is getting a cheap tablet and place it on your music stand. Then you can also get, say, the iRealB app which is kind of a downscale Band in a Box which many of us use happily for practicing. It's available for both iOS and android.
    Last edited by oldane; 03-31-2013 at 04:14 AM.

  49. #48

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    Hi Everybody,
    For those interested, Sher Music has just released the PDF of Randy's Drop-2 book. The PDF for Three-note Voicings will be available soon.

    Here's the link:
    Jazz Guitar Voicings - Vol.1: The Drop 2 Book by Randy Vincent | Sher Music Co.

  50. #49

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    The PDF for Three-note Voicings is now available!
    Three-note Voicings and Beyond by Randy Vincent | Sher Music Co.
    Last edited by bobafifi; 06-11-2015 at 12:09 AM.

  51. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by monkmiles
    The Drop 2 got delivered today.

    Any suggestions on the best way to go through to get the most out of it? I ask that because on an amazon review, I saw something about a recommendation on skipping to chapter 4 for practice after each section...or something along those lines.
    Hey man! Couple years later haha. I just bought the book and was wondering the same… Did you eventually found out a good way to get most out of it?