The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Typically, what seems to happen at my level (in a no book situation) is that the lead instrument, usually a horn, has a pretty good grasp on the melody, but is more likely to play an interpretation than stick right to the original. The pianist, if there is one, plays the changes he likes - which could be anything. RB changes are most likely, but I know some players who just sort of improvise a reharm on the spot.

    It's hard enough for the guitarist to fit in with a busy pianist (a lot are) even if playing changes out of a book. But, with the pianist reharmonizing on the fly and perhaps differently every chorus, laying out looks better and better. If the pianist is playing RB changes, you then deal with the issue that not all the RB's have the same changes. When there was one RB, that wasn't a problem but now there has to be a discussion between guys with different paper books and the electronic tablet guys.

    In a band where everybody has big enough ears to know what's "right" and immediately identify what is being played at the moment, this all works out. But not every player can do that reliably. Even so, most of the time, it works out. If I'm the only chord instrument and I'm playing just 2 or 3 notes, there isn't much chance for a major clash. If there's a pianist, I'm likely to defer. If I can't figure out the piano chord, I try to get a couple of notes that work.

    Also, the people I play with know the usual standards but nobody wants to play them very much. People want to play more obscure tunes. So, often, knowledge of a recording or composer's chart just isn't there.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I like F#o7 in All of Me.

    You wouldn't believe the looks I get.
    That sounds great if the bassist and soloist are thinking the same. If they go for the usual Fmin6 two notes will be dissonant. One I could handle but two seems a bit much.

    I guess another option over Fmin6 is Bb7, which isn’t dissonant at all.
    Last edited by KirkP; 11-07-2019 at 07:26 PM.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I like F#o7 in All of Me.

    You wouldn't believe the looks I get.
    But a nice bass movement if you play:

    F/F#dim/C6 [G in bass] G#dim/A9/

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Why do people resurrect such ancient threads? How does this happen?
    A reckless explorer stumbles onto the lost site of an ancient temple, scrapes away a layer of sand from from a stone tablet marked with hieroglyphics, inadvertently invokes the magic words, and boom! A Real Book demon stirs to life, releases a plague of man-eating scarab beetles, and we start arguing about Round Midnight.

    John

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    A reckless explorer stumbles onto the lost site of an ancient temple, scrapes away a layer of sand from from a stone tablet marked with hieroglyphics, inadvertently invokes the magic words, and boom! A Real Book demon stirs to life, releases a plague of man-eating scarab beetles, and we start arguing about Round Midnight.
    Indiana Jones and the Mystery of Who Wrote Donna Lee.

  7. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojo27
    I've heard it so much, I had almost accepted it as a given, but then it hit me -- what's _wrong_ about it, but more important, says who, and why?

    kj
    There can be (are) many reasons. Tonal clashes, non logical chord progressions, for example if you know a certain composer would most unlikely compose in a certain way (for example a Shorter tune, and Carter chooses a bass note in the spur of the moment doesnt change the chord in a way were it should be written in the lead sheet ). Or a pedal point with underlying chords might be noted as individual chords with its own roots etc..

  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by greveost
    There can be (are) many reasons. Tonal clashes, non logical chord progressions, for example if you know a certain composer would most unlikely compose in a certain way (for example a Shorter tune, and Carter chooses a bass note in the spur of the moment doesnt change the chord in a way were it should be written in the lead sheet ). Or a pedal point with underlying chords might be noted as individual chords with its own roots etc..
    I'm sure the OP will have been glad to have his post answered 8 years later....

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I'm sure the OP will have been glad to have his post answered 8 years later....
    Haha, oops, anyways, this is still a valid question that can be discussed

  10. #84

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    Uncle Joe was a union man out in California, the Bay Area to be exact, I have his Union card someplace...

    Anyway, he was a pro grew up in territory bands etc... and they would get these Union books which I have seen and they were kind of like the Real Book only the transcriptions were very rudimental. It was up to the musician to use those books as a map and work up their own Arrangements.

    These union books were highly guarded and sold by genre and as a union they paid royalties to the artists whose songs were contained in those books.

    I don't know if they were called Union books but as a union member you had access to them and you paid for them as the unions held the rights to these songs as much as ASCAP does these days with royalty fees generated from DJs etc going to the correct copyrighted entity .

    Later on the real book came out in which the arrangements and chords were much better, but I think people have gotten away from working up their own arrangements and I believe that has become a stagnanted part of the process in the community as a result.

  11. #85

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    Thank you for that fascinating post. I love the first line, sounds like the start of a short story....

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Thank you for that fascinating post. I love the first line, sounds like the start of a short story....
    Just like Raymond Chandler.

  13. #87

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    I had always heard that Gary Burton penned the first Real Book. IDK whether it's true.

  14. #88

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    I think the problem is the title!!! If it had been called the " Pointing you in a Jazz like direction Book" or "WinkWinkNodNodBook" or "JazzStuffBook" we might not be getting so concerned)

    Will

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    I had always heard that Gary Burton penned the first Real Book. IDK whether it's true.
    The first iterations of the Real Book were done at Berklee college of music in Boston. As I understand it they were originally transcriptions done from recordings by students and as such there are errors and inaccuracies, as well as the ambiguities of transcribing chord voicings, etc. What the transcriber hears may or may not be what the musician intended. There are some flat out errors such as bars missing from songs, inaccurate melodies, etc.

    Allegedly the 5th edition handwriting is that of Steve Swallow. The books were sold by word-of-mouth, and back alleys like knock off watches, etc. I got mine in about 1980 by sending $20 cash to an address in Illinois provided to me by my jazz guitar teacher, and received my 5th edition in a plain brown wrapper a couple of weeks later. All very skulduggeryish. That version has some errata pages with corrections to make to various charts.

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    I had always heard that Gary Burton penned the first Real Book. IDK whether it's true.
    I have trouble imagining he’s that bad of a musician haha....

    In fairness, most of the mistakes in the RB are of the careless chart preparation variety. But there are some real oddities. I cannot imagine a professional jazz musician getting the charts so incorrect for Four for instance.

    So I think it’s more likely that some of the charts may have been from Burton’s pads, and many of them transcribed by talented but slightly careless students. Given the variety of handwriting it seems likely it was a mix of sources.

    Anyway I like the mistakes, for me they are part of the history..... of course the newer editions straighten everything out. Makes it a better book, but less interesting.

  17. #91

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    To the OP - the real book is definitive. The recorded music is frequently inaccurate.

  18. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    But a nice bass movement if you play:

    F/F#dim/C6 [G in bass] G#dim/A9/
    New Orleans style

    But also

    F F#dim C/G G#o7 Am D7 G7 can I get a hallelujah?

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by KirkP
    That sounds great if the bassist and soloist are thinking the same. If they go for the usual Fmin6 two notes will be dissonant. One I could handle but two seems a bit much.

    I guess nother option over Fmin6 is Bb7, which isn’t dissonant at all.
    check out how people handle this type of change on the records. Both are quite frequently played against each other. This is one of the big tip offs I got that vertical chord scale relationships don’t apply to moving chords in jazz common practice.

    Ethan Iverson picks up on this often in his blog. Gunther Schuller described them as mistakes, which Iverson regards as .... a mistake.

    Here’s a great example from recent years from a player who certainly is doing it on purpose:
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-02-2019 at 07:05 AM.

  20. #94

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  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Steve Swallow tells his version of the tale on video here (at 22:30):


    TL;DR version is Steve's handwriting does not appear in the Real Book, but his did give some of his handwritten charts of his own tunes to the students who make the original book, and they created new versions of those charts. Steve also wrestled with the idea of giving away his compositions for free in written form, and ultimately decided he'd be better off with them circulating in bootleg form and hopefully then being recorded by people exposed to them through the real book. He doesn't regret that decision in this interview.

    To add to the short history on the Official Realbook website, check out this book review about a book chronicling the history of the fakebook:

    Peter Spitzer Music Blog: Review: "The Story of Fake Books" and the "6th Edition Real Book"

    To the question of the OP, "Who says the Real Book is 'Wrong'", this guy makes the argument that it's time to retire at least the original bootleg version:
    It's Time To Get Rid Of Your Real Book
    Last edited by 44lombard; 11-02-2019 at 05:30 PM.

  22. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Oh that’s a cool little history...
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-02-2019 at 06:45 PM.

  23. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Why do people resurrect such ancient threads? How does this happen?
    necro threads come back to life like zombies here...

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    A reckless explorer stumbles onto the lost site of an ancient temple, scrapes away a layer of sand from from a stone tablet marked with hieroglyphics, inadvertently invokes the magic words, and boom! A Real Book demon stirs to life, releases a plague of man-eating scarab beetles, and we start arguing about Round Midnight.

    John
    Hey that's just another day at the office for me!
    Who Says The Real Book is "Wrong"???-lawson-square-tabm-2019a-2-jpg

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Hey that's just another day at the office for me!
    Who Says The Real Book is "Wrong"???-lawson-square-tabm-2019a-2-jpg
    Watch out for the man-eating scarabs.

    John

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Watch out for the man-eating scarabs.

    John
    More scary is the Scarab-Eating Man!