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I recently bought the Modern Harmony book by Vic Juris. It's a great book, has so many nice voicings I can use for soloing that don't change the chord harmony and work over many different chords. For those of you who aren't aware of what this book contains, it mainly consists on chords built on intervals. Basically, it has about 5 or 6 different kind of structures, such as chords built on intervals of 4ths + 6ths, 4ths + 2nds, ect.. Anyways, to those who don't have this book, I highly recommend it. Great addition to the book collection of any guitarist.
Anyways, for those who have this book and understand it, I had a question. I got the book a few days ago so I'm currently working on the structure 1 (4ths + 6ths) in the major key. Anyways, how would you go on to substitute these chords for actual comping?
Say I have a rhythm changes tune in C major (for the sake of keeping the same key as in the book). I would substitute each chord written down for the interval chord built on the same root (sub C Major for the interval chord built on C, so on). Is this right?
Also, when it comes to chords such as G7sus4, what would you subsitute it for? I was thinking either using the ones built on D or the ones built on G.
Or am I mistaken and you can really substitute a chord for any voicing in the key?
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06-20-2011 07:58 PM
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The excersies that you're talking about in stacking the intervals are really a modal sort of concept and thus it can work over any progression that is just a static form of harmony. Your example of a Rhythm changes would work for sections of it as the first 4 bars of the tune is essentialy 1 key that just cadences and moves up a 4th then back home.
The issue there is that you probably need to be careful about the stylistic problems you may come across.
I talked with Vic about the book at length a little while ago and he demonstrated how to apply these concepts over say any standard tune that has a strong defined tonic key such as Dminor over Alone Together, a progression that then moves through various keys. The contrast between the intervallic approach over the Dminor juxtaposed against the cycling that happens makes for a very nice contrast.
It's a fantastic book, I seem to have misplaced mine or lent it to a student who probably forgot he borrowed it or graduated and took it as a gift. I don't mind buying a second copy, in fact just a few hours ago I was meeting with a student and mentioned this book to him as something he could use to help advance his harmonic vocabulary, especially the sections on poly-chords.
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Yeah, I read about it being a modal approach to chords. I would think of using these more so on my solos for now until I talk to my teacher about these and seeing how I can use them to comp.
I noticed how these chords are built also, which is basically stacking an interval on a root, then going up the next scale tone after the second note and adding the second interval on top of that. This has given me the idea that a combination of these kinds of chords is practically infinite, since you could also separate the intervals by thirds, fourths, fifths, ect... instead of seconds. This theory I've found very interesting.
The part on the polychords I'm actually saving for last. I kind of have small hands and there's something about using my thumb to grab bass notes my hand just doesn't want to get, so I need to start doing my stretching excercises
haha
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One of my favorite books. Great thread.
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These chords are also called panditonic. They don't really have a root like a "conventional" chord
They follow whateve scale/mode you want and there are plenty of combinations.
a three note one that I like:
3rds + 2nds CEF then inverse 2+3 CDF
A 4 note version I like is 6ths joined by a second (CABG) and 3rds over 4ths joined by a second- (GCDF)
I think there are some in the Slomninsky thersaurus as well
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they're great sounds, in melodic minor it is even more useful since you can sub any melodic minor sound for another under a root provided by the bassist in a group and while some of them are a little more physically challenging they're very rich sounds.
Vic is such a great player, I was so happy when I found this book and need to find it again so I can get deeper into some of this stuff.
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Not familiar with the book, not sure if I'm grasping what exactly you guys are talking about. Examples of voicings on say, a Dm vamp? I remember a YouTube clip of him demonstrating I think it was these (over Dm)
x x 10 10 8 12
x x 9 9 6 10
x x 7 7 5 8
etc throughout the mode...obviously you could just change the shape/combo of intervals, run the new structure through the appropriate chord scale and viola...is that what you guys are talking about?
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I've wondered if that description is what Holdsworth was also sort of talking about when he was envisioning his personal harmonic concept--which notes to grab? why, any of them, in whatever intervallic sequence, so long as they're diatonic to the key--he used the amorphous term "note families".
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I'm nt very familiar with his playing, so I YouTubed him and got this:
Absolutely ridiculous lines on "Cherokee" at about - what? - quarter note = 350bpm?
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Yeah, Vic is an awesome player. I hear he is a really nice guy as well. He teach's throughout NYC and NJ. An old instructor of mine took lesson from him. Great book to. Got it for $10.00.
Last edited by brwnhornet59; 06-21-2011 at 05:37 AM.
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Yeah Vic does a lot of teaching, his rates are very reasonable considering what his peers will charge that and he's a great human being. I would assume he'd take on almost anyone as long as he's not already busy and he's a busy guy. But if anyone in NJ or NYC wants a lesson with someone who is a world class player AND teacher, I would give them Vic's number or email.
something to think about if you're in the market for a one off ass kicking.
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Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon
Vic is great and he's been around forever. I have a lot of his stuff all the way back to "Roadsong" through "Alpha is the Omega"
He is someone who does not get nearly enough credit. Even here.
Back in the 80's he was like the 'go to ' guitarist. He was with Jeannie Bryson (Dizzy's daughter) , Phil woods and did duo work with Larry Coryell, Bireli Lagrene (Excellent CD!) and John Etheridge (Another excellent CD). He's been playing with Dave Leibman forever and that says it all right there.
I even have an anecdote. Way back in 1998 or so I was in a group that played a new's years eve town wide celebration called First Night. The idea was booze free entertainment through out the town by a whole bunch of musicians , artists , dances,....
My band gets to play in the basement of this old church on some side street. Start time 9 pm to 10
We walk in at 7 and who do we see setting up for the 8 to 9 spot but Vic J and his band. I'm thrilled because not only do I get to hear Vic and company, but the place is crowded with all these people there to see Vic
My wife and I sit in the back and Vic is smokin'. great show. My wife doesn't really understand jazz but she's listening, paying attention, I tell her about whats going on etc. .
They pack up, we go on and play. We get done and I look for my wife and she's sleeping in the back of the church. I think to myself "Man, after seeing Vic's band cook, were we THAT boring?"
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LOL he's really one of the greats.
I had the distinct pleasure of sharing the bandstand with Vic a year and a half ago and it was really just a whole lot of fun. It to me was why I do this, to get to exchange music with someone on such a high level so far above where I am and where I could only imagine getting to. His records are great, but live it's a whole other thing, in fact it's sort of overwhelming how he plays and that sound, THE SOUND, man it's the embodiment of guitar tones in jazz, he just really explores it and is a true virtuoso.
ANd as mentioned that Vic is humble, funny and just a great person. I think that it's important for younger players learning the craft that they go and check out people like Vic who perhaps is more famed for his sideman work (most notable lately his 10+yr stint with Dave Liebman) because he really does run the gambit of skills in this music.
When John Abercrombie and Pat Metheny endorse him on their websites as one of the greats you have to wonder how he flew under so many radars.
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Something like that. If you take one pattern say 3/4 joined by 2 (GCDF) and move it through the C scale you get:
GCDF *
ADEG *
BEFA
CFGB
DGAC *
EABD *
FBCE
4 of the chords stack up the same (P4, M2, m3). The others have the TT an m2.
They of course work in any of the modes derived from Cmajor. YOu can play them over a pedal bass note or even add another note and see what that does for you
ex- ADEG
C bass = C 6/9
F bass = F ma13 (ma7 6/9)
B bass = G 69/B
and the relative minor equivalent. (Ami11/C, Dmi11/F)
another one I like (though real stretchy) are compound 5ths with a second in the bass
BCGD.
There are *some* usable fingerings especially up the neck. You have to find which ones work for you.
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Guitar World released a DVD of Vic teaching called "Vic Juris: All That Jazz" back in October, 2010. I've seen some clips on their YouTube site and it looks awesome. It costs about 15 bucks and it's over 90 minutes long; Barnes/Noble and Amazon both have it but for some reason I couldn't find it on the Guitar World site. Like Jake says, the guy is hilarious and humble. I'm probably going to pull the trigger on this today. His tone is great and his presence as a teacher puts you at ease.
And man, some of the stuff in the chord book is so hard for me to grab! I may get tendonitis from some of them.
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Thanks John, that's what I figured.
I read on one of these forums that the first thing Mick Goodrick does when he learns a new voicing or chord is take it up and down the neck in any appropriate chord scales. Makes sense to me.
There's a guy on another forum, Michael, (I don't know if he posts here) who had this whole chart for combining intervals to make these kinds of voicings. This is the kind of thing that, if you so choose, could be a lifetime of work (all interval combinations, string sets, keys, modes, harmonizing non-traditional chord scales...etc)....fun
Thanks
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
It's not the finding them, it's the remembering them
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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Sounds like you should get George van Epps hundreds of pages method books.
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ah, touché! Originally Posted by JohnW400
It's not the finding them, it's the remembering them
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Well honestly I think any good exercise could be extrapolated into really a life time of exercises. Originally Posted by NSJ
But at some point I do want to check out GVE books...I hear Mr. Kurt has taken a lot from them, and well, his voice-leading blows my mind.
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I met Vic once, right before he played with the Lieb at the Green Mill a few years ago. (prior to that and thereafter since, we have only corresponded on the AAJ boards, where he regularly frequents and contributes). My impression is that he is a really nice, sincere, down to earth, unpretentious guy. Even afterwards, I got an email from him, saying if I was ever in NYC to look him up.
That set with the Lieb was one of the smokenist musical experiences I've ever had. Interestingly enough, I was with several people, including a classical pianist and harpsichordist who is getting her PhD in baroque music. She found the music to be very very intense, and she kept saying "where is the functional harmony?" again and again.
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Yeah, if you don't have the book it's kind of hard to grasp what he's talking about, you need to play it to see/hear/know what he's trying to teach. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
In the book there's about 6 different structures. Say you're in C major and building a chord on C. The first structure he introduces is the 4th + 6th.
So you start on C, add a 4th which would be F. In these chords, he separates both intervals by 2nds, which creates a lovely dissonance inside the voices. Anyways, on top of the F is a G (diatonic 2nd), and on top of the G he adds the second interval, a 6th, being E. So the chord is a CFGE, which is the x x 10 10 8 12 one you mentioned. All of these chords, as mentioned, are modal chords, all of them being diatonic.
However, this is a good start, and I mentioned that although he introduces only 6 structures, you can create basically an infinite amount of them. You can combine intervals he does not combine (such as maybe 4ths + 7ths or 2nds + 5ths) or invert the ones he does introduce (invert the 4ths + 6ths to a 6ths + 4ths) or separate the intervals by more than a 2nd, or even add altered tones (b9, #9, #11, #5 of the scale). As I said, I just started working on the book and I'm currently just working on the 4ths + 6ths in major, but I've tried raising some of the Fs (making it more lydian) which gives a lot of chords a really nice sound, but it also makes you stretch like crazy! haha.
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Originally Posted by jtizzle
CFGE is a Bill Evans rootless voicing as well (Dmi11). You can hear it in "The Two Lonely People" and "Funkalero"
One you may not easily find is C E#(f) Gb (f#) Eb which makes a nice rootless D7 +/- 9. Move that one through the HW symmetrical scale.
Do yourself a favor and keep expanding on the idea by taking one form and add a bass note, moving the bass note through the chromatic scale to see what you get. Not every chord will be a winner but you will find a few very usable ones. You should do this with quartal and quintal chords as well. I found this voicing ( A E B F# G# - 6 4 3 2 1) that way.
BTW when I say you should I mean it in the 'one should' sense. I don't mean you specifically.
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thanks JT, makes sense to me. Seems pretty logical.
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