The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 26
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Hai everyone!

    I have a question about chord substitution.

    I see a lot of sheet music and stuff like that were chords are being substituted all the time. But how does it work?

    How can you substitute one chord for another, but you still get the feeling of the first chord? Are there some standard rules for this? Are there some do's and dont's?

    Hexxor

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    The first thing to think about when subbing is whether you are doing it over a melody or on a blowing section.

    The only basic rule when subbing over a melody is make sure that the melody note is found within the chord you are subbing. So if the original chord is a Cmaj7 and the melody note is a B you could technically sub any of these chords:

    Bmaj7, Bm7, Bm7b5, B7, Bdim7, Am9, Bb7b9, F7#11, Fmaj7#11 etc you get the point.

    What helps decide which chord to use is where the chord is going to next. If your next chord is an A7b9 chord, the VI in the key of C, the Bb7b9 sub works well, so would an E9 chord, as both lead into A7 nicely.

    Over a blowing section anything goes, though chords that are a minor or major third or tri-tone away from the original chord tend to work well. Again the chord that you are going to will help you decide which sub will work the best.

    That's just a basic start, try jamming over a one chord vamp and starting on the original chord, say Cmaj7, then moving out to any/all chords you can think of, then resolve it back to Cmaj7.

    MW

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    There are some basic Chord subs that work in a diatonic sense to get upper extensions in the chord by eliminating other chord tones, but then can be spelt differently.

    for example CM7 and Em7 are essentially the same chord with a different root. this is a I for iii sub. Same for CM7 for Am7 the I for vi (relative Minor).

    These hold true for other qualities... example, C7 for Em7b5 Cm7 for EbM7 and things like this. These are basic subs that get you different extensions and are good to get under your ears and brain quickly.

    Matt's suggestions are great, I would suspect that some of those fall more under "reharmonization" rather then substitution. Subs have to follow some sort of harmonic function as suggested, saying that a CM7 chord with a B on top could also be an F7#11 is a bit of a stretch because of the Eb in the F7 to my ears, but hey not a big deal in the end.

    I love 7#11 chords

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    yeah round these parts the terms reharm and sub have different meaning than in other places.

    Here guys use them like so:

    Reharm: When the chords to a tune are changed before the piece is played. The new chords are used during the melody and blowing sections, or just one or the other.

    Subs: When the chords to a tune are changed on the spot during an improvisation or melody section. The rest of the band is not told of these changes and is expected to hear them and react to them in real time.

    MW

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Well, this is pretty simplistic, but I thought the "rule" for substitution was basically that is one chord shares two or more of the same notes of another chord, they are substitutes for each other, especially if it's the 3rd and 7th. That's how you derive the I = iii = iv, and ii = IV thing, and the tri-tone substitution.

    Then there is a class of "substitutions" that involve substituting chords with extensions/alterations, so it's basically the same chord, but with added notes, i.e. for any Major chord, you can subtitute the 6, M7, M9, sus2, M7#11, etc. It's the same chord quality (major) but with some notes added or maybe sustituted (sussing the 4 for the 3, etc.).
    Last edited by Goofsus4; 06-20-2008 at 10:26 AM.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofsus4
    Well, this is pretty simplistic, but I thought the "rule" for substitution was basically that is one chord shares two or more of the same notes of another chord, they are substitutes for each other, especially if it's the 3rd and 7th. That's how you derive the I = ii = iv, and ii = IV thing, and the tri-tone substitution.

    Then there is a class of "substitutions" that involve substituting chords with extensions/alterations, so it's basically the same chord, but with added notes, i.e. for any Major chord, you can subtitute the 6, M7, M9, sus2, M7#11, etc. It's the same chord quality (major) but with some notes added or maybe sustituted (sussing the 4 for the 3, etc.).
    Tritone subs, and diatonic subs (what you were talking about in your 2nd paragraph) are just the tip of the iceberg. There is a whole world of subs out there. Modal interchange is another example.

    "Like all men, all chords are related." I got this from Tony DeCaprio, he says he got it from Jimmy Raney I think.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by derek
    Tritone subs, and diatonic subs (what you were talking about in your 2nd paragraph) are just the tip of the iceberg. There is a whole world of subs out there. Modal interchange is another example.

    "Like all men, all chords are related." I got this from Tony DeCaprio, he says he got it from Jimmy Raney I think.
    Ahhh...yes, I see that modal interchange thing a lot, and it makes analyzing chord progressions difficult until you realize what's going on.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Yeah once you start looking at players/composers from about 1965 onwards basically anything goes. If you really want to give yourselft a headache you should check out any of Kenny Wheeler's tunes! Trying to analyze those is like working out advanced physics.

    MW

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Chord substitution is pretty straight forward and some very generalized rules could easily be made up similar to a post I made up about a year ago on this same subject. However, reharmonization is completely different! The best thing about reharmonization is: ANYTHING GOES! (Howard Roberts seminar 101) If your ear approves of what you have done, it is most likely ok. I like: 1) the bassline to make sense to me, 2) enough melody to recognise the original tune, 3) hearing the backcycling occurring in the reharmonized version. BUT, that is just me and my perhaps somewhat biased approach to reharmonization. As an example of this type of thinking, take an old standard song with nice changes and try to insert "quoting" from other tunes into the original tune. Howard Roberts turned me on to this concept and I think you might like the results.

    best wishes,
    wiz

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Hello, I just created a video applying some subtitutions in a minor II-V-I Progressión .


  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Thanks, after 11 years, I'd pretty much given up on this thread.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by javierfiji
    Hello, I just created a video applying some subtitutions in a minor II-V-I Progressión .

    Bit spammy putting the same vid on multiple threads. Good vid though, solid demonstrations.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Thanks, after 11 years, I'd pretty much given up on this thread.
    Yeah, why do people do that? Pick out a thread that's super old and resurrect it?

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    I wonder if the OP ever figured it out?

    Did he become a studio musician like he hoped or give up?


  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Yeah, why do people do that? Pick out a thread that's super old and resurrect it?
    probably because half the time people start a new thread somebody says something like "uhhm search function is there for a reason."

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    probably because half the time people start a new thread somebody says something like "uhhm search function is there for a reason."
    I’m willing to bet this never happens for that reason.

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I’m willing to bet this never happens for that reason.
    why do you hate me

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758
    why do you hate me
    :-)

    Something to do while I wait for my scrambled eggs innit

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    lol and fried green tomataos!

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Maybe people google a hot jazz guitar topic du jour and one of these old threads comes up in the search results, so they dive straight in without realising it dates from 1832 or something.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    I was looking for thread about chords subs, since the two that I found were really old, I decied to re open both

    Problably I am going to start a new one.

    Sorry, anyway.

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    yea!!!!

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    This thread has a lot of good advice.

    I have a couple things I think about.

    One is tension and resolution of chords. Related to the major scale it looks like this (hopefully these line up)

    I--iim--iiim--IV--V7--vim--dim
    R--T---R---R/T--T----R -----T

    R = resolution
    T = tension

    R's sub for R's
    T's sub for T's

    Chords that share two or more notes generally can be subbed for one another.

    Note the shared notes in the chords of the C major scale:

    substitute chords-jazz-guitar-chord-theory-png

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/wp-co...ord-theory.png
    Last edited by Drumbler; 01-29-2019 at 07:17 AM.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler
    This thread has a lot of good advice.

    I have a couple things I think about.

    One is tension and resolution of chords. Related to the major scale it looks like this (hopefully these line up)

    I--iim--iiim--IV--V7--vim--dim
    R--T---R-----T----T----R -----T

    R = resolution
    T = tension

    R's sub for R's
    T's sub for T's

    Chords that share two or more notes are generally can be subbed for one another.

    Note the shared notes in the chords of the C major scale:

    substitute chords-jazz-guitar-chord-theory-png

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/wp-co...ord-theory.png
    That’s very much the way I look at it. Also Peter Bernstein as it turns out!

    Plus Anything between a T and an R - like a V7alt or a #ivo7 is just joining up the dots.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That’s very much the way I look at it. Also Peter Bernstein as it turns out!

    Plus Anything between a T and an R - like a V7alt or a #ivo7 is just joining up the dots.
    *Made a correction to the IV chord which is the odd man.

    Chords that visually demonstrate note sharing on the fretboard are G7 (xx3433), Bdim (xx3434) and Dm7 (xx3535). All share the same two notes.

    This becomes like the "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" game.

    substitute chords-kevinbaconartbsweb-jpg