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  1. #1

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    Hai everyone!

    I have a question about chord substitution.

    I see a lot of sheet music and stuff like that were chords are being substituted all the time. But how does it work?

    How can you substitute one chord for another, but you still get the feeling of the first chord? Are there some standard rules for this? Are there some do's and dont's?

    Hexxor

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    The first thing to think about when subbing is whether you are doing it over a melody or on a blowing section.

    The only basic rule when subbing over a melody is make sure that the melody note is found within the chord you are subbing. So if the original chord is a Cmaj7 and the melody note is a B you could technically sub any of these chords:

    Bmaj7, Bm7, Bm7b5, B7, Bdim7, Am9, Bb7b9, F7#11, Fmaj7#11 etc you get the point.

    What helps decide which chord to use is where the chord is going to next. If your next chord is an A7b9 chord, the VI in the key of C, the Bb7b9 sub works well, so would an E9 chord, as both lead into A7 nicely.

    Over a blowing section anything goes, though chords that are a minor or major third or tri-tone away from the original chord tend to work well. Again the chord that you are going to will help you decide which sub will work the best.

    That's just a basic start, try jamming over a one chord vamp and starting on the original chord, say Cmaj7, then moving out to any/all chords you can think of, then resolve it back to Cmaj7.

    MW
    Matt Warnock Guitar
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  4. #3

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    There are some basic Chord subs that work in a diatonic sense to get upper extensions in the chord by eliminating other chord tones, but then can be spelt differently.

    for example CM7 and Em7 are essentially the same chord with a different root. this is a I for iii sub. Same for CM7 for Am7 the I for vi (relative Minor).

    These hold true for other qualities... example, C7 for Em7b5 Cm7 for EbM7 and things like this. These are basic subs that get you different extensions and are good to get under your ears and brain quickly.

    Matt's suggestions are great, I would suspect that some of those fall more under "reharmonization" rather then substitution. Subs have to follow some sort of harmonic function as suggested, saying that a CM7 chord with a B on top could also be an F7#11 is a bit of a stretch because of the Eb in the F7 to my ears, but hey not a big deal in the end.

    I love 7#11 chords

  5. #4

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    yeah round these parts the terms reharm and sub have different meaning than in other places.

    Here guys use them like so:

    Reharm: When the chords to a tune are changed before the piece is played. The new chords are used during the melody and blowing sections, or just one or the other.

    Subs: When the chords to a tune are changed on the spot during an improvisation or melody section. The rest of the band is not told of these changes and is expected to hear them and react to them in real time.

    MW
    Matt Warnock Guitar
    FREE 84-Page Jazz Guitar eBook

  6. #5

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    Well, this is pretty simplistic, but I thought the "rule" for substitution was basically that is one chord shares two or more of the same notes of another chord, they are substitutes for each other, especially if it's the 3rd and 7th. That's how you derive the I = iii = iv, and ii = IV thing, and the tri-tone substitution.

    Then there is a class of "substitutions" that involve substituting chords with extensions/alterations, so it's basically the same chord, but with added notes, i.e. for any Major chord, you can subtitute the 6, M7, M9, sus2, M7#11, etc. It's the same chord quality (major) but with some notes added or maybe sustituted (sussing the 4 for the 3, etc.).
    Last edited by Goofsus4; 06-20-2008 at 10:26 AM.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goofsus4 View Post
    Well, this is pretty simplistic, but I thought the "rule" for substitution was basically that is one chord shares two or more of the same notes of another chord, they are substitutes for each other, especially if it's the 3rd and 7th. That's how you derive the I = ii = iv, and ii = IV thing, and the tri-tone substitution.

    Then there is a class of "substitutions" that involve substituting chords with extensions/alterations, so it's basically the same chord, but with added notes, i.e. for any Major chord, you can subtitute the 6, M7, M9, sus2, M7#11, etc. It's the same chord quality (major) but with some notes added or maybe sustituted (sussing the 4 for the 3, etc.).
    Tritone subs, and diatonic subs (what you were talking about in your 2nd paragraph) are just the tip of the iceberg. There is a whole world of subs out there. Modal interchange is another example.

    "Like all men, all chords are related." I got this from Tony DeCaprio, he says he got it from Jimmy Raney I think.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by derek View Post
    Tritone subs, and diatonic subs (what you were talking about in your 2nd paragraph) are just the tip of the iceberg. There is a whole world of subs out there. Modal interchange is another example.

    "Like all men, all chords are related." I got this from Tony DeCaprio, he says he got it from Jimmy Raney I think.
    Ahhh...yes, I see that modal interchange thing a lot, and it makes analyzing chord progressions difficult until you realize what's going on.

  9. #8

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    Yeah once you start looking at players/composers from about 1965 onwards basically anything goes. If you really want to give yourselft a headache you should check out any of Kenny Wheeler's tunes! Trying to analyze those is like working out advanced physics.

    MW
    Matt Warnock Guitar
    FREE 84-Page Jazz Guitar eBook

  10. #9

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    Chord substitution is pretty straight forward and some very generalized rules could easily be made up similar to a post I made up about a year ago on this same subject. However, reharmonization is completely different! The best thing about reharmonization is: ANYTHING GOES! (Howard Roberts seminar 101) If your ear approves of what you have done, it is most likely ok. I like: 1) the bassline to make sense to me, 2) enough melody to recognise the original tune, 3) hearing the backcycling occurring in the reharmonized version. BUT, that is just me and my perhaps somewhat biased approach to reharmonization. As an example of this type of thinking, take an old standard song with nice changes and try to insert "quoting" from other tunes into the original tune. Howard Roberts turned me on to this concept and I think you might like the results.

    best wishes,
    wiz
    Howie

  11. #10

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    Hello, I just created a video applying some subtitutions in a minor II-V-I Progressión .

    http://www.javierperezsandoval.com

    Gibson ES 137
    Henriksen Blues Amp 110

  12. #11

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    Thanks, after 11 years, I'd pretty much given up on this thread.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by javierfiji View Post
    Hello, I just created a video applying some subtitutions in a minor II-V-I Progressión .

    Bit spammy putting the same vid on multiple threads. Good vid though, solid demonstrations.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    Thanks, after 11 years, I'd pretty much given up on this thread.
    Yeah, why do people do that? Pick out a thread that's super old and resurrect it?

  15. #14

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    I wonder if the OP ever figured it out?

    Did he become a studio musician like he hoped or give up?

    "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing." - Socrates
    “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.” - Alan Wilson Watts

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah, why do people do that? Pick out a thread that's super old and resurrect it?
    probably because half the time people start a new thread somebody says something like "uhhm search function is there for a reason."
    White belt
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  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    probably because half the time people start a new thread somebody says something like "uhhm search function is there for a reason."
    I’m willing to bet this never happens for that reason.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I’m willing to bet this never happens for that reason.
    why do you hate me
    White belt
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  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    why do you hate me
    :-)

    Something to do while I wait for my scrambled eggs innit

  20. #19

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    lol and fried green tomataos!
    White belt
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  21. #20

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    Maybe people google a hot jazz guitar topic du jour and one of these old threads comes up in the search results, so they dive straight in without realising it dates from 1832 or something.

  22. #21

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    I was looking for thread about chords subs, since the two that I found were really old, I decied to re open both

    Problably I am going to start a new one.

    Sorry, anyway.
    http://www.javierperezsandoval.com

    Gibson ES 137
    Henriksen Blues Amp 110

  23. #22

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    yea!!!!
    http://www.javierperezsandoval.com

    Gibson ES 137
    Henriksen Blues Amp 110

  24. #23

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    This thread has a lot of good advice.

    I have a couple things I think about.

    One is tension and resolution of chords. Related to the major scale it looks like this (hopefully these line up)

    I--iim--iiim--IV--V7--vim--dim
    R--T---R---R/T--T----R -----T

    R = resolution
    T = tension

    R's sub for R's
    T's sub for T's

    Chords that share two or more notes generally can be subbed for one another.

    Note the shared notes in the chords of the C major scale:

    substitute chords-jazz-guitar-chord-theory-png

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/wp-co...ord-theory.png
    Last edited by Drumbler; 01-29-2019 at 07:17 AM.
    "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing." - Socrates
    “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.” - Alan Wilson Watts

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler View Post
    This thread has a lot of good advice.

    I have a couple things I think about.

    One is tension and resolution of chords. Related to the major scale it looks like this (hopefully these line up)

    I--iim--iiim--IV--V7--vim--dim
    R--T---R-----T----T----R -----T

    R = resolution
    T = tension

    R's sub for R's
    T's sub for T's

    Chords that share two or more notes are generally can be subbed for one another.

    Note the shared notes in the chords of the C major scale:

    substitute chords-jazz-guitar-chord-theory-png

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/wp-co...ord-theory.png
    That’s very much the way I look at it. Also Peter Bernstein as it turns out!

    Plus Anything between a T and an R - like a V7alt or a #ivo7 is just joining up the dots.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    That’s very much the way I look at it. Also Peter Bernstein as it turns out!

    Plus Anything between a T and an R - like a V7alt or a #ivo7 is just joining up the dots.
    *Made a correction to the IV chord which is the odd man.

    Chords that visually demonstrate note sharing on the fretboard are G7 (xx3433), Bdim (xx3434) and Dm7 (xx3535). All share the same two notes.

    This becomes like the "six degrees of Kevin Bacon" game.

    substitute chords-kevinbaconartbsweb-jpg
    "As for me, all I know is that I know nothing." - Socrates
    “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.” - Alan Wilson Watts

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumbler View Post
    *Made a correction to the IV chord which is the odd man.

    Chords that visually demonstrate note sharing on the fretboard are G7 (xx3433), Bdim (xx3434) and Dm7 (xx3535). All share the same two notes.
    Cmaj7 and G7 also share two notes, G-B. (that's why we like to think of Cmaj7 as a C chord with a borrowed diminished note). but they are not subs.

    for four-part voicings you need two shared thirds. cmaj has c triad+em triad, dm7 has dm triad plus f triad. that's how you get the T SD and D parallels.

    the iii chord has two relationships T and D. in jazz it's T.

    note that "two shared notes" and "one shared triad" are not necessarily the same.

  28. #27

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    Besides the Note Share options, there are other options to open new doors and brind other chords. In this video I Rearharmonized You Are too Beautiful. In the First option basically I have list of all the posible chords that could be Tonic, Subdominant or Dominant. By Thinking in the the different ways that can bring you the vi, o iii, you will have more options of Dominant chords, and II-V´s

    http://www.javierperezsandoval.com

    Gibson ES 137
    Henriksen Blues Amp 110