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I've been messing around with this ... trying to take out some of the boppish elements in the fake book (all those ii-V) and other odd ducks (certain subs just don't work). And since jazz is ear music, not necessarily eye music, I'm trying to let my ear guide some changes ... and it seems to be drawn to simpler changes these days.
One reason is that I'm a singer and sometimes those boppish changes don't work too well with the melody. I often feel that the fake book changes are exercises in substitution theory and not really great road maps for the song.
Another reason is that I feel that the greater the number of chords, or the greater complexity of a chord, can limit the soloist's freedom. For example, a Cmaj chord allows a soloist an incredible area to range over ... whereas a Cmaj7#11 can put certain limitations on note selection. YMMV.
Just wondering if anyone else does this. I've been doing this to some of the Duke tunes in my rep, and I'm finding out some new ways of thinking about them. I guess less is more in my case.
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05-23-2008 01:01 PM
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I'm also big on simplifying (and correcting) the changes from the real books to reflect the basic movement of tonal centers in the tune. The benefit of the basic changes is three fold...1). easier to memorize the progression and see the commonalities among other tunes, 2.) its easier to mentally navigate tonal centers during improv and understand the effect of outside notes., and 3). it provides a basic reference point for re-harms substitutes particulkarly in chord melodies.
In many cases the changes in the Real books are just wrong. They obscure the tonal centers and often limit the ability to logically apply substitutes.
In the end. I think it is better to memorize the basic changes and apply your own repertoire of substitutes and outside tones.Last edited by Jazzaluk; 05-23-2008 at 01:26 PM.
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I'm not sure if everyone knows the history of the Real Book, so this might help clear up the issue with "wrong changes".
The Real Book was written by three students at Berklee back about 25 years ago or so. They were all taking a jazz arranging class where they had to "reharmonize" standards, but first they had to write out the original lead sheets. So after a few years at Berklee these three guys had amassed a bunch of tunes, what you see in the Real Book before it went "legal", and so they put them in a book, bound it and started selling it. They didn't use the orignal changes, or the "correct" changes, in the book, instead a lot of the time they kept in the rehearm's that they had done for class. So technically those changes aren't "wrong", they are just those guys' reinterpretation of the original charts. Which, for a lot of tunes, these reharms clash with changes heard on recordings.
For years you couldn't even buy the Real Book in stores, these three guys would load up a van full of books and drive around to Universities at the start of the school year and sell them that way.
This is the big reason that I, and many other teachers/players, always check the changes in the Real Book, even the legal one, against a famous recording. This way there can be no confusion on the band stand or elsewhere when playing with older more experiences musicians, as you won't be playing the "real book" changes but the traditional changes.
MW
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I'm absolutely in that camp. But frankly, I thought I was doing that because I was a noob. Glad to see that other more experienced players feel the same way. When I look at standards, I often see that a lot of those altered chords are the result of a melody note. So, if I was playing it chord melody style, then I would be playing it that way. But, if I want to blow, then I record myself comping simplified changes.
But again, I'm still a noob at jazz, so maybe I'm just living up to my handle.
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I'd heard something about that, but your explanation is the best re-telling I've come across. Light bulbs are flashing like crazy in my head. That's some great background info.
Crazy some of the arguments players get into over the "real" or "original" changes. Even keys get folks red in the face.
Nice to hear that the path I'm on isn't unknown or untrodden.
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Yeah, my first teachers used to tell me stories of when the Real Book first came out and all of the students would come to class and be playing the "wrong" changes to tunes. It got so bad in the early years that a lot of teachers banned the use of the Real Book for learning tunes, and I've heard stories of guys throwing Real Books out the windows of improv classes, and cats getting yelled at on stage for pulling out a Real Book.
Jack Grassel tells a story about the first time he played with Melvin Rhyne. He showed up to the gig, got set up and tuned, then Melvin called the first tune. So Jack gets out his Real Book, and Melvin just stares at him. Then he tells Jack that his job tonight is not to play because he obviously doesn't know how, it is to sit in the front row and write down all the tunes they play, then come back the next week with those tunes learned and he can try again. So Jack goes home and works out all of the tunes all week and he's really proud of himself. But the next week when he gets on stage Melvin calls Bluesette, one of the tunes from the previous week, but in a different key. So Jack fumbles through the tune and then Melvin points to a chair in the first row and Jack goes and sits down. But the following week Jack had learned all the tunes in all 12 keys that Melvin was playing and was finally allowed to play the gig. From then on he never let his students learn out of the Real Book.
MW
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Yeah, the dogmatism of the Real Book is too bad. Not that I'm some hot-shot player, but I'm weary of the Staring at the Bible of Changes during Jazz Church in session at the local restaurant or any other gig. Almost like it's sola scriptura or something ... not in the Real Book, so it can't be true.
I know it helps a lot of players play tunes they don't know (heck it's helped me), but the whole Real Book Culture is a drag. Hard to find a common rep these days among any jazz community, so I guess it's a good way to serve the LCD and save a gig.
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40 years of playing and I hadn't heard that one before, see and old dog can learn some new tricks
Originally Posted by m78w
Though I did realize the changes weren't tallying with recordings I had of specific tunes. Thus I understood I had to learn the tunes by ear but the reharmonization really explains the weirdness of some written copies I have.
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I use the real book for "reference only" and very often find the changes not to be the best sound for a tune. The guys I work with usually pick the tunes from the real book series because of the the good selection and variety of tunes but we all seem to agree that the changes (usually pretty good) are "guidelines" and not truly the gospel for jazz. I believe The best changes come from using your ear to get the best fit.
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05-24-2008, 04:17 PM #10Stringbean Guest
Good topic.
Can someone post an example. Both the beebop changes and the simple changes of tune.
thanks
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Sure,
Here's the simple changes to the first 8 bars of Autumn Leaves:
Am7/D7/Gmaj7/Cmaj7
F#m7b5/B7b9/Em7/Em7
and here are the "Bop" changes
Bbm7 Eb7/ Am7 D7/ Abm7 Db7/ Gm7 C7/
F#m7b5/ B7alt/ Em7 / Em7
There are tons more examples, but this is a famous one. I believe those are Hank Mobley's changes, but I could be mistaken. They are definately used a lot with older players, and guys who are Bop oriented.
MW
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m78w, can you please explain the theory behind that chromatic IIm V7 progression, please? Is it related to the original progression or just superimposed for it's obvious effect? Sorry, sometimes I over think jazz theory and it's usually a lot more simple than I think.
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The simpliest answer is that first four bars are just a series of descending ii-V's that resolve by half step to the first chord, F#m7b5, in bar 5.
That's it in a nutshell.
MW
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06-05-2008, 03:53 PM #14Stringbean GuestThanks ! Originally Posted by m78w
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No Problem!
MW
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A slight variation on Matt's 'bop' changes is:
Am / D7 / Abm Db7 / Gm C7 /
F#m B7 / Cm F7 / Em / E7alt
Matt, in your 'bop' changes, I don't see where the initial Bbm7 Eb7 in the first bar comes from. How does that relate to the original Am ?
I'm probably looking straight through some blindingly obvious explanation, but I can't see it. I can see it for blowing over but not for the melody.
The above changes are Jimmy Raney's.
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The changes I wrote out are usually only used during the blowing section. They don't really relate to the melody, just some extra descending ii-V's that make the first four bars more exciting.
I dig your changes!
MW
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Thanks man, but they're not mine, as I say, thank Jimmy Raney. The Cm F7 runs so nicely into the Em, and they're a ball to blow over. They seem to have a momentum of their own.
Thanks for explaining yours are for blowing, I was thinking it was pretty far out harmony for the melody! I shall have to try them out.
Interesting difference. Yours rush straight down and then pause before resolving which gives it a different feel from mine, which hang around before plunging down and then flipping at the end. Cool.
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The Jimmy Raney changes are nice! He is still my favorite all-time jazz guitarist. I think I have all of his music from start (late 40's) to finish (90's). He never seemed to run out of melodic ideas. He was the "Bebop King" of jazz guitar!
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Yeah, if you want to learn how to play bebop guitar then he is a must to listen to. A long time ago I bought the Jamey Aebersold volume (20) which has Jimmy Raney playing 10 standards. He comps on the playalong but there's a supplement cd (33 rpm vynil EP in my case!!) on which he solos. Good way to learn about bebop changes and phrasing.
I went through it so often about 15 years ago, that after one particular gig, a guy in the audience came over and said, "That was great, man, you sound just like Jimmy Raney". My immediate response was, "hey, cool, that's some compliment". But then I realised that I'd rather sound like me cos JR can do JR much better than I can and anyway it's pointless just repeating what's gone before. Well that's the way I look at life anyway, for what it's worth.
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Jimmy's album "Live in Paris" was one of the first jazz albums I owned, man what a great album! At one point I could play a long with every solo on the CD, if only I could blow like every solo on the CD I'd be set!
MW
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Here's an interesting site that really boils down the tune's chords to their bare essence:
The Vanilla Book
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Man, I had no idea the Real Book was so frowned upon. Is that an old thing, or is it still so unacceptable?
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I like the vanilla book and Songtrellis for basic changes. They seem right to me and are usually in the correct key. You can always elaborate but I'm at the stage where I need to see the pared down versions first.
Sailor
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I think it depends on who you're playing with ... the old school guys are getting older and you won't run into as many. The new guys are coming up out of the universities and learning the real book and chord-scale theory and all that ... so the real books will probably be around a while. Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
As I said earlier in my post, I was just trying to find ways to make the songs work better with the melody ... some of the RB changes didn't quite sit well in my ear so I decided to simplify them -- and then found out I liked it better. The Vanilla Book looks like it has some changes that I'd like, but I can imagine players not digging them ... not hip enough to justify four years in college.
Bottom line I guess is go with your own ear and adapt to the changes that your own jazz community uses.
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