When to use half-diminished and diminished chords?

[Boston Joe]

There's also the Barry Harris approach. That's a little complicated to just write a couple of sentences about but basically, if you add an extra note to a scale in a certain position, you can then harmonize the scale such that you get an inversion of the I6 chord on every other tone, and the other ones are diminished chords. I'm sure there are threads about it in here.

[ragman1]

So how does that work? If Autumn Leaves normally looks like

Am7 - D7 - GM7 - CM7
F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em - %

... it becomes

Ao - G6/_D - G6 - Co
F#o - Em6/_B - Em6 - %

Or something like that? Doesn't look too clever to me. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong.

[Freel]

So how does that work? If Autumn Leaves normally looks like

Am7 - D7 - GM7 - CM7
F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em - %

... it becomes

Ao - G6/_D - G6 - Co
F#o - Em6/_B - Em6 - %

Or something like that? Doesn't look too clever to me. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong.

Am6,Bo,Am6/C,C#0 to the D7 group etc.

There is a nice realisation of it in the Hal Leonard book, below, but in that instance for Fly Me to the Moon. The arranger is uncredited but, based on the conversation below, I think it is this dude, as he mentioned it eliptically. The book is uneven as it is the work of many hands but it does represent great value for money and with most tunes fitting on one or two pages it suits the reader as better than most books with tab which are really just bloated memory aids for the lazy.

First 50 Jazz Standards You Should Play on Guitar: Amazon.co.uk: Hal Leonard Corp: Books

D.

[ragman1]

Am6,Bo,Am6/C,C#0 to the D7 group etc.

Sorry, how does that relate to the Autumn Leaves progression? Don't understand that at all. Tell me what to play instead of the usual chords.

[Freel]

Sorry, how does that relate to the Autumn Leaves progression? Don't understand that at all. Tell me what to play instead of the usual chords.

I don't think telling you will help you get it. But I will do a few bars both two and four chords to the bar maybe Monday, this weekends going to be busy.

I won't bother if you've worked out by then, it's definitely within your grasp.

The All the Things You Are is a better place to start though because the first chord is the tonic minor from which the Andalucian cadence kicks off so the eight note scale is the Melodic Minor plus a minor sixth, exactly equlvalent to the eight note tonic bebop scale in C but with a minor third.

In Autumn Leaves the first chord is the ii of the Relative Major so you need to expand on the concepts that you will learn from that and modify them using your ear. That will take time which is why I am not going to glibly attempt them in a rush.

I trust you enjoyed the podcast ?

D.

[ragman1]

I don't think telling you will help you get it. But I will do a few bars both two and four chords to the bar maybe Monday, this weekends going to be busy.

I won't bother if you've worked out by then, it's definitely within your grasp.

The All the Things You Are is a better place to start though because the first chord is the tonic minor from which the Andalucian cadence kicks off so the eight note scale is the Melodic Minor plus a minor sixth, exactly equlvalent to the eight note tonic bebop scale in C but with a minor third.

In Autumn Leaves the first chord is the ii of the Relative Major so you need to expand on the concepts that you will learn from that and modify them using your ear. That will take time which is why I am not going to glibly attempt them in a rush.

I trust you enjoyed the podcast ?

D.

Can I be honest? If it all takes that long to 'get it' then I'm seriously wondering if it's worth it. I'm honestly not very interested in complex theory that takes a sort of great mathematical working out. I doubt very, very much that it'll vastly improve the usual way of doing things. It's a question of whether the sweat's worth the result.

This isn't in any way to denigrate your enthusiasm and willingness to share it with me. Let's not confuse the two. I appreciate your input for my benefit and thanks for that.

But are we talking chord backing or soloing here? When you say 'the eight note scale is the Melodic Minor plus a minor sixth, exactly equivalent to the eight note tonic bebop scale in C but with a minor third' it implies soloing - quite apart from giving me the shivers, that is.

I'm afraid the podcast is an hour-plus long so it'll have to wait till I have the time to spare. As I speak we're gearing up for going for the weekly supermarket supplies. Mundane but necessary...

[grahambop]

I assume this all refers to the Barry Harris chord approach, not single note lines. It is actually a simple concept. You learn the major 6/dim and minor 6/dim chord patterns which were alluded to in Boston Joe’s pdf and this lets you play all kinds of harmonic movements very smoothly. Those chord inversions can give you major, minor, dominant, dominant altered, and min7b5 sounds. So you can get a lot out by only learning a relatively limited number of chord inversions. There’s a whole lot more on top of that, but that’s the basis of it.

I am no great fan of complex theory but I have found the Barry Harris stuff really useful. Good for creating more movement from one chord to the next, rather than just playing fairly static chord grips all the time. Also useful for arranging solo guitar things, harmonising melodies, etc. Lots of ways to use it.

There have been several threads on it recently, in the Comping and Chords section.

[ragman1]

Graham -

Understood, but I think my question was how it would apply to, say, that excerpt from Autumn Leaves. Instead of playing the 'usual' chords how would it be played?

I've always had the feeling that this idea is much easier on a piano than guitar. Dim chords can be inserted as passing chords to give smoother movement, I understand that, but the pdf shows that the major and minor scales in their entirety can be reharmonised with only maj6 and dim chord inversions.

Applying that to the AL excerpt in my post #27:

(When to use half-diminished and diminished chords?)

didn't seem to work very well. Or, of course, I'm applying the whole idea incorrectly because I don't understand it properly.

I'm not, as was suggested, closed to this concept at all. If a simple practical example was provided and I thought 'That's really nice' I'd adopt it right away. But I do get a slightly disturbing feeling from it hence my trepidation, and that feeling's not something I'm getting past at the moment.

Basically, I want someone to demonstrate it musically. How it sounds normally and how it sounds applying the new thing. Not a lot to ask really! I do things like that all the time. It's the only way to prove something actually works.

[Vladan]

Guess the idea is to go ... | Am7 Am6 Am6b5 D7| .... where Am6b5 is same as D7b9. I don't really get all the fuss.

As I once already mentioned elsewhere, I've heard guitar players who sounded really fine and smooth, sound not so fine and smooth, rather choppy, after allegedly they have adopted Barry Harris' approach. Of course, I do not listen really carefully and do not come back to too many things, so it could be I was deceived by "first impression".

[christianm77]

Guess the idea is to go ... | Am7 Am6 Am6b5 D7| .... where Am6b5 is same as D7b9. I don't really get all the fuss.

As I once already mentioned elsewhere, I've heard guitar players who sounded really fine and smooth, sound not so fine and smooth, rather choppy, after allegedly they have adopted Barry Harris' approach. Of course, I do not listen really carefully and do not come back to too many things, so it could be I was deceived by "first impression".

I think that’s because Barry’s stuff is very hard to implement on the guitar in four voices.

The other day he said he’d started teaching more in three voices and suggested us guitarists give it a go that way.

[grahambop]

So how does that work? If Autumn Leaves normally looks like

Am7 - D7 - GM7 - CM7
F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em - %

... it becomes

Ao - G6/_D - G6 - Co
F#o - Em6/_B - Em6 - %

Or something like that? Doesn't look too clever to me. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong.

Am7 = C6
D7 = Amin6 or Ebmin6
G = G6
C = C6
F#m7b5 = Amin6
B7b9 = Cmin6 (or Cdim)
Em = Em6 or G6

But of course those inversions might sound exactly the same as the ‘original’ chords anyway. It’s more about how you move between those chords (using the diminished chords between them). It just makes it easier to do it from the 2 sets of inversions i.e. maj6 and min6, so really there’s just 2 sets of inversions to learn.

Hard to explain this really but it’s the kind of thing you can hear Wes Montgomery doing in his chord solos for example. Also a lot of ‘swing/Freddy Green’ comping uses these kind of movements. Also I think big band arrangers used this 6/dim kind of 4-part writing a lot, so it’s nothing new really. It’s cool to apply it on the guitar, but it does take some work.

[christianm77]

Also Baroque music 7-6 resolutions. We’d understand them as fourth wise progs from the theoretical root movement, but back in those days they saw everything from the bass

Autumn Leaves

Cm7 Cm6 Bbmaj7 Bb6 Am7 Am6 Gm

Notice the descending diatonic bass

Anyway, we wouldn’t add the 5ths to these chords either for baroque voceleading, or Van eps voicings (called Freddie Green voicings by most players)

[christianm77]

I call it ‘tea for two-ing’

[grahambop]

Basically, I want someone to demonstrate it musically. How it sounds normally and how it sounds applying the new thing. Not a lot to ask really! I do things like that all the time. It's the only way to prove something actually works.

This guy gives one of the best demonstrations I have seen (this is on How High the Moon):

[christianm77]

That reminds me - Peter Bernstein was quite firm about playing D or Ab on the bass of penultimate chord in Am7 D7 Gm6 as he felt strong root movement cadence there was important. Anyway, not sure how relevant this is!

[grahambop]

I think that’s because Barry’s stuff is very hard to implement on the guitar in four voices.

The other day he said he’d started teaching more in three voices and suggested us guitarists give it a go that way.

I think Alan Kingstone’s book has appendices of the chords with one of the voices removed, which would be handy for this.

[ragman1]

Graham -

Thanks, some of what that guitarist was doing sounded pretty good. If that's the idea then I like it. I'll investigate further and it'll start to appear in the recordings.

Put it this way, it'll make a very nice change from the tritone/backdoor stuff when it comes to reharm :-)

[ragman1]

Well, don't gasp in amazement, I've already done it. Partially, anyway. A m7 can be its rel maj6, a dom can be the dim (or m6) above (7b9) and a maj is a 6. With dim chords between for movement.

At the moment I'm only doing it with shell voicings (no 5th). Fancy stuff to come. I think I've more or less come up with same thing as you did earlier.

So, Autumn Leaves is:

Am7 - D7 - GM7 - CM7
F#m7b5 - B7b9 - Em - %

becomes

C6 - Ebm6 - G6 - C6
Am6 - Cm6 - Em6/Ebm6 - Em6

becomes

C6/Do - Ebm6/F#o - G6/C#o - C6
Am6 (or Am/F#)/ C#o - Cm6 - Em6/Ebo - Em6

I kept the original bass in because the subs are supposed to work!

I think I quite like it. Maybe I wouldn't use it all the time (or even all the time in one tune) but I can see possibilities. And I haven't plumbed the whole depths yet, of course.

And if you think I've got this wrong tell me!

[Vladan]

I think I quite like it. Maybe I wouldn't use it all the time (or even all the time in one tune) but I can see possibilities. And I haven't plumbed the whole depths yet, of course.

Isn't it wonderful that it is possible to do such subs? Real issue, though, as you also seem to think (from post I quote and your response to that clip, where you say ... "some of it sounds good" ..., or similar), is how does it really sound.

There's no point in commenting your recording. I mean, it sounds just like every other recording of yours. if you do not believe me ask Kris.

But that clip, that guy demonstrating what he have learned from Barry Harris .... he plays for about 6 minutes effectively, out of it, about 5 seconds sound really good and strong, another 5, like OK and the rest ... well ... I won't play that, ever. Not as a first choice. Maybe by mistake, or if I run out of ideas, or have no other way to pull out ... Luckylly enough, I'm not musician and do not have to play Jazz, so it's likely I'll never get into such problematic situation.

[christianm77]

Luckylly enough, I'm not musician and do not have to play Jazz, so it's likely I'll never get into such problematic situation.

This made me laugh. We really do like to make things difficult for ourselves don’t we?

[ragman1]

Hey Ragman I thought your second chorus sounded cool, I think you’ve got the idea.

Possibly :-)

I saw a live clip of BH playing piano, probably with Hawkins. Near the start he seems to be playing the ordinary changes, pauses a split second, then hits a diminished chord followed by a 6. Can't remember which vid now. So it seems that he doesn't use the ideas all the time but slips them in.

I think I'd do the same. I see it as another useful means of reharmonisation.

But many thanks to you. Through your explanations it all seems much clearer.

[ragman1]

Isn't it wonderful that it is possible to do such subs?

Well, I don't know about 'wonderful' but, given knowledge, it is possible. Mind you, some of these ideas existed before too. I can't remember from where but a lot of BH is not entirely original.

Real issue, though, as you also seem to think (from post I quote and your response to that clip, where you say ... "some of it sounds good" ..., or similar), is how does it really sound.

Don't understand that one, Vladan.

There's no point in commenting your recording. I mean, it sounds just like every other recording of yours.

It's bound to sound the same. Same equipment, same guitar, me playing... bound to sound similar. But, of course, they're not similar at all. In that clip you're supposed to hear the difference between the normal changes and the subs. If you can't, what can I say?

But that clip, that guy demonstrating what he have learned from Barry Harris .... he plays for about 6 minutes effectively, out of it, about 5 seconds sound really good and strong, another 5, like OK and the rest ... well ... I won't play that, ever. Not as a first choice. Maybe by mistake, or if I run out of ideas, or have no other way to pull out ... Luckylly enough, I'm not musician and do not have to play Jazz, so it's likely I'll never get into such problematic situation.

No-o-o. It's a question of distilling the ideas to see if they have practical value. What he was doing was fairly complex but not impossible to adapt.

I wasn't too keen on this stuff before because (sorry) it wasn't presented very clearly. Far too theoretical, mathematical, confusing, wordy, etc etc. That's why I wanted a good sound-bite to hear it properly. I've heard it and I can steal it. This is good.

[pauln]

But what do you call it when it stands on its own in a progression?

For example, in "Unforgettable", two measures are given to each chord, F69, Abdimb6, Bb69, G13...

The diminished Ab (with the b6th) is a real honest to goodness stand alone chord in the progression, not acting as a passing chord.

[ragman1]

But what do you call it when it stands on its own in a progression?

For example, in "Unforgettable", two measures are given to each chord, F69, Abdimb6, Bb69, G13...

The diminished Ab (with the b6th) is a real honest to goodness stand alone chord in the progression, not acting as a passing chord.

I don't know what you mean by a dimb6 chord.

[christianm77]

Abo7 with an added E (Fb) in the top voice?

You see those sorts of things a lot. Dim7 with a non chord tone in the melody. People don’t normally bother to reflect it in the chord symbols, though.