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I am a beginner to Jazz guitar. Right now I am learning maj7, min7, and dominant 7 chords. My instructor has given me 4 different voicings to work on for each of those chords.
When I look on the internet I see SO MANY different ways to play those same chords. I know there are different voicings for them, but does anyone have any advice on how many different ones I will need to learn?
How do I know if I am learning the "wrong" voicings? Or voicings that I will likely never use?
I spend a lot of time practicing and I just want to make sure that I am not wasting my time.
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09-28-2010 05:19 PM
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Which four?
Originally Posted by Ashlee
You are a beginner. Take your time. It's better to use what you know well. Originally Posted by Ashlee
When I started learning jazz I was dabbling in rock, with lots of power chords -- just roots and fifths. After that, even major triads sounded odd, and major seventh chords -- I thought they were so dissonant! It may take a while for you to wrap your ear around jazz chords. For example, it may sound funny to have the seventh in the bass:
CMaj7: 7x555x
but that works great if it's a passing tone in a walking bass line. And having the seventh and root next to each other may sound dissonant now:
CMaj7 again: 3x241x or xx2413
But it's actually a very cool sound. I try to play chords with seconds in them.
Are you learning to comp to songs? Just practicing chords on there own gets boring quickly. Originally Posted by Ashlee
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Learn them by string sets and all the inversions. It really the easiest way.
Here's a Thesis on Harry Leahey that contains quite a lot of info on this. Look at pages 39-56. (Read the thesis and find some recordings to see what a great guitarist he was.)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/22466228/T...s-Harry-Leahey
Study these chords in all keys, all inversions and the 5 basic 7th chord types
After you can do the excercies on page 54 I'll tell you the next step
Hint: Start with a major 7th, then for dominnant 7, lower the 7th a 1/2 step, next minor 7th , lower the 3rd a 1/2 step, next mi7b5, lower the 5th a 1/2 step and finally for diminished 7th lower the 7th again.
Also, start with set A and then do set E (?) or whatever set is on strings 1234. Why? because the only differnece between these two sets is that the 6th string moves to the 1st string. The other notes stay where they are.Last edited by JohnW400; 09-28-2010 at 10:38 PM.
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Great name by the way...(smile)
The four voicings he taught me are as follows (I've never written them like this so I may make a mistake)
GMaj7: xx4433, xx5777, x x 9 11 13 12 (not sure how to write this one with the double digit frets)
And then from there I basically adjust them to make them min7 and dom 7. So for example:
G7: xx3433 etc.
I hope that makes any sense at all??? If not let me know and I'll try and explain it another way.
And NO he does not have me comping. You are right that it gets VERY boring going over these over and over. I've been doing it for like 2 hours everyday and I am SO Ready to move on.
Do you have any suggestions for easy songs I could practice Comping to? That's a great idea!
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JohnW400-Thank you so much for that resource. I will definitely check that out and let you know when i am ready for the next step!
Thank you so much for your help!!
God Bless!
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Those are the "drop 2" voicings on the top 4 strings: Originally Posted by Ashlee
GMaj7: xxx4433, xx5777, xx9.11.8.10 xx.12.12.12.14
BTW, here's a trick for shifting chord forms between strings. Because of the smaller interval between strings G and B, the "grip" isn't exactly the same, but a moment's reflection shows you the pattern:
GMaj7: xx5777
DMaj7: x5767x
AMaj7: 5766xx
See it? When shifting down (towards bass strings) the note landing on the G string shifts down one fret. Or, looking at it in reverse, when shifting up (towards treble strings), the note landing on the B string shifts up one fret.
Which form should you use for a given chord symbol? One good exercise is to pick a fret, say the fifth fret, and play the tune with chords that stay as close to the fifth fret as possible. Then choose another fret, say the ninth fret, and repeat the exercise. Originally Posted by Ashlee
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Hey BDLH... cool study material, where do you use these voicings, what type of settings, I checked out link, nice info. Sorry to ask questions but when you voice with this collection of voicings, how do you approach which ones you use. Thanks Reg
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Drop 2 voicings? There are pretty all purpose: chord melody to comping. I honestly don't think enough about what chord to use! I just grab the closest one, and try to mix it up. Originally Posted by Reg
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Hey BDLH thanks... wow... Almost like intervallic dissonance with simple chord tones. I played through his sets, chords and inversions, very organized but seemed pretty dated, I don't hear many I,VI, II, V's, that straight anymore , I realize jazz harmony wasn't common knowledge... I mean the common... tones, fingers and strings make very usable, but wow... a little hard on the ears. I guess it's part of the great road to musicianship, but I would think just being aware of concepts of drop 2, 3, 4 and other mechanical voicing device and how to build the voicings would be plenty, I'm not sure about mastering the sets... most of those voicings are not what I would think would be basic jazz chords. I played through all the sets of I VI II V, , most of the lead lines are a little hard on the ears... I would think beginners need to learn basic root position and more guitar style voicings, some of which are in those sets. Might be a lot to ask of beginners to know when or when not to use certain voicings because of interlallic conflicts with context... But I don't teach beginners and maybe this is common practice... Anyway thanks for info, always great to be hipped to another great musician...Reg
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I would suggest you buy the Mickey Baker Jazz Guitar book. It's a terrific grounding in useful chord voicings and puts the chords in context, i.e. putting together groups of chords that you'll find in most tunes. Once you've gone through this book you'll have enough grounding to work the rest out for yourself with ease. Good luck Ashlee, it's a long road and it was tough starting out for most of us but, persevere and it'll come.
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Reg, Originally Posted by Reg
Are you talking about the thesis link I posted? It's really a system and this is the starting point. It's some type of 7th chord and their inversions.
In fact it's the opposite of the way Pat Martino teaches chords. He starts with the diminished 7th and works his way back to the major 7th.
As far as I VI II V's, It's just another pattern. You could take the Van Eps book, Dennis Sandole or Mick Goodrick book and apply these to the patterns in those books as well.
These 5 aren't the only sets either. There are 4 others based on root 5 3 7, root 3 7 5 and then a few more that based on simple block chords out to root 7 5 3 which is quite a stretch.
Some voicings are great for comping, some are good for chord melody and some that don't sound all that appealing change to a usable chord as you move it to a different quality. Some are a matter of taste (or lack of
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If you want to hear more of Harry he has a small discography. His best are two out of print albums called Silver Threads and Still Waters and a CD of solo guitar works where he just went into a studio and popped out abuch of tunes.
If you want to know more about him you can ask Vic Juris , Bob DeVos or Joshua Breakstone. They all spent time with Harry. I'm sure they have tales to tell.
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I don't want to wade into the discussion of how and what to teach beginners (cuz I don't know). I mainly wanted to point out a mnemonic I found helpful: "Down a fret to G; up a fret to B":
x3x453 <--> 3x443x
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I like that. Works well for showing the difference of what note to change as you move down the strings (D at the second = D at the 7th, same form but down for the G, ect)
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Hey John... thanks... sorry, I now see you posted the link. Yea ...all great stuff... Many times I ask questions rather than give opinions. Many moons ago I was taught concept... then figure the application out yourself, notate and play. I mean explain drop 2, 3 or any style of chordal voicing technique, and student does the work, rather than be told. The education system has always gone back and forth between the two; process or result. I am a believer in both, starting with process... in music; understand what your playing or composing... and be able to cover the performance part... I think most proficient guitarist go through the voicing process, become aware of the possibilities, where and when there used and then decide what to play. I personally did... now when I comp I simply play lead lines. I voice below or not...depending on context, or what needs to be implied. Unless I get hired to play or read a part, which I do a lot. I wasn't really looking for explanations, one glance at voicings and I already understood the systems, and how to apply. Sorry if I was misleading... I'm always interested in how others apply and develop their personal style of playing, in this case, comping. Best Reg
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hey Ashlee,
As you can see there are lots of different methods and loads of books about it.
For me there seem to be 2 different approaches: 1) Think of the where the chords root is and work out the intervals around it (Drop 2's etc. The system I was taught at Berklee and I think is most common) or 2) Learn what interval is the top note of the chord (as used in Scott Hendersons chord voicing book) which confuses me but may work for you.
Your teachers approach sounds good. Just remember that:
Where and how you use a voicing (the theory) is at least as important as which one you use in getting a jazzy sound. You don't need to memorise 100's of voicings. By learning the basic core chords (1,3,5,7 and inversions) and knowing which notes to move up or down you can deal with the vast majority of the charts you will come across.
It may be boring but the repetition is a great way to get them under your hands. Perhaps get a jamman or similar recording device and comp for yourself. That way you are motivated to do a good job
It is a long path, but fortunately there are lots of guys and books around to guide you. Good luck
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Reg,
my reply was more for the people that may look at your reply and use it as an excuse to not learn them. You know..."hey Reg says they're dissonant and I don't like dissonnce so...."
It should be clear to anyone reading your posts that you're an experienced proffesional player
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Hey John... as always good point. Reg Originally Posted by JohnW400
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They all studied with Sandole. Yeah. I thought Harry's sets were kind of dry. Pat's stuff is anything but dry. And Coltrane's? Harry's recordings were really hip. His lines were'nt dated at all. Like I said when I heard Harry at Gullivers in '78 he was cookin' and burnin'. Just unbelievable. I think Harry's playing games with us by disguising the sets that way. There was more to it for sure. Just listen to him. I think it goes back to Van Eps. Johnny Smith drilled that stuff into his students. Harry was with Smith for a while I think. Originally Posted by JohnW400
Dennis Sandole: 1913-2000Last edited by ChuckCorbis; 10-03-2010 at 01:35 AM.
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Thank you, JohnW400, for the link.
I could probably learn a lot from it when I have the time.
Those chords (Leahey's) are the same as Jimmy Bruno teaches.
He teaches them as 2-5-1's but otherwise the same.
Just a 'head's-up' for anyone who might use it.
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Chuck,
The sets are just the tip of the iceberg. A place to start. It's when you start changing them to 9ths, 11th and 13ths that you start to get the idea of how to find your own favorite chords.
As far as using these chords, I have a a couple of his transcriptions, Some I've done, some he wrote out for me . He did indeed use chords from these sets. And he used a boat load of stuff from the other concepts he taught.
His album Still Waters is a smoker
Still, I think these sets are the place for beginning Jazz students to start with. You learn these and build from there. Eventually you learn how to find any chord you want/hear
Rabbit.
These are the same That Jimmy teaches. I also think you should start with ii-V and that's the way Harry used as well. The thesis shows the I vi ii V, which I also had to do as well as ii vi ii V and finally I IV vii ii vi ii v I.
Then he would write out non diatonic patterns.
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Thank you for that resource John. A question though, how would you go about making the sets part of a daily practice routine? It's a little overwhelming seeing all of them at once from my perspective and I'd like an idea as to how to go about breaking them down for daily practice if you don't mind (e.g. Staying on the first set of each respective string group until mastered in all 12 keys and then moving to the next and so forth?).
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Start with the set on strings 6x432x. Start closest to the nut finding the inversion that fits (C = 2nd inversion, F = root position, Bb = 3rd inverson, Eb = 2nd) and play one quality up the neck changing inversion. Do all 12 keys and then change the quality
Qualitywise start with Ma7, then lower the 7 to Bb for dominant 7th. next flat the 3rd for mi7, then flat the 5th for mi7b5. finally flat the 7th again (to Bbb or A) for Diminished 7.
Then starting closest to the nut and choosing one inversion at a time, harmonize the major scale going up the neck. all 12 keys.
After this do 2-5-1 all inversions all keys. whan you've finished this set (6432) doing all this, ask me whats next
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Incentive...I like it! Might be awhile before I get proficient with the above; hopefully you'll be checking in every now and then.
A question about chord choice when harmonizing the major scale using this method. If in the first set we're only talking about 6x432x and I wanted to harmonize the A major scale for example, I'd pick the inversion of A major closest to the nut, which in this case would be the one with Ab on the 6th string? Am I following you?
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G#. The 7th is G#. Same note but not the same function. But yes. a in the 3rd inversion is the closest.
You could also do them as modes. ie. A major scale but using F#mi7 in root position so it would go F#mi7 G#mi7b5 Ama7 Bmi7 C#mi7 Dma7 E7 . This would be the minor scale.
The idea is to become familiar with keys, the chords in them , ect
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Originally Posted by musicalbodger
Thank you so much for your words of encouragment, and I will definitely check this book out!!!!!
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